Chavez supporters attack peaceful demonstration in Maracaibo CNE (video)

[joshcryer]

Reminds me of the Arab Spring.

[Bacchus4.0]

1. chavistas and violence go together like arroz y caraotas

these are the "revolutionaries" that are adored by the DU chavistas.

[kenlayisalive]

2. Pay attention everyone

The 1% in Venezuela didn't get what they want and will murder and destroy until they get it.

Reminds Rightwing clown OP of the Arab Spring. Maybe he is excited about the possibilities of 60,000 deaths. Reminds me more of the Iraq War and coup in Chile though.

If there is anyone here who considers themselves to be a leftist and doesn't think that our fortunes are bound up with the poor people struggling for a better life in Venezuela, you are gravely fooling yourself.

We lose there, we lose here.

[Bacchus4.0]

4. the 1% are the corrupt thieves currently in power n/t

s

[Daniel537]

5. And yet, they got 51%, mainly from the poor and working class.

Sorry buddy, the people in Venezuela didn't buy the right-wing jargon.

[joshcryer]

8. They lost 20 points.

Do you think the trend is for the chavistas in the long run?

Not the way they're acting now, I don't think.

[Daniel537]

10. No one knows what happens in the long run.

This election was about today. The Chavistas have a lot they need to fix up in Venezuela, but they have the right to fix it since they won.

[joshcryer]

12. They have a responsiblity to assure the citizens they won.

And to do that they should allow an open and transparent count and analysis of the election.

Why won't they do that? The country is split. They must do something to prevent future violence. So far it's been extremely peaceful.

[naaman fletcher]

13. what do they have to fix? nt

[Daniel537]

15. Crime, corruption, shortages.

Venezuela certainly has problems, but the people decided to stick with the Chavistas and not return to the days of a neo-liberal shock doctrine.

[naaman fletcher]

16. Catherina told me there are no shortages

and it's all a right wing lie.

[Daniel537]

20. I speak for myself.

I look at this strictly through the prism of majority-rules. I don't consider myself a "supporter" of either side since i'm not a Venezuelan citizen. But i do know the people spoke, there's still no hard evidence of fraud, so its time to move on.

[joshcryer]

30. "there's still no hard evidence of fraud"

That's what the Republicans say every election that people are disenfranchised.

[naaman fletcher]

31. Majority Rules

What do you think about the fact that the opposition got the majority of votes in the national assembly, yet the ruling party claimed 60+% of the seats?

[Daniel537]

36. I would say its like the system we have here.

Don't like gerrymandering, but you have to play by the rules. If they had an Electoral College and Capriles had won while losing the popular vote, i would say the same thing.

[naaman fletcher]

39. fair enough nt.

[mecherosegarden]

61. Yes there is.

And crime, and corruption, and the government not following the constitution and changing the constitution as they please.

[Daniel537]

62. And that happens to sound like the USA since 9/11. n/t

[joshcryer]

18. Capriles never espoused neoliberal policies.

In fact, Venezuela Analysis attributed his 20 point gain on his populist rhetoric (which of course they turned right around and said he was feigning).

[Daniel537]

22. Your right, he did pretend to be a populist for a while there.

But he also said he would stop shipping oil to Cuba, hence ending the Cuban missions there. I bet that didn't help him very much in the barrios. Who knows, he might have won had he said he would maintain the status quo with Cuba.

[joshcryer]

28. He governed as a social democrat for a decade.

There's no reason to believe he was dishonest about his policy proposals.

He said he would give amnesty to Cubans if they asked.

He probably wouldn't have won if he said he'd maintain the status quo with Cuba because Venezuelans aren't stupid and they see the half billion in free money they are giving Cuba.

[Daniel537]

32. Well his Cuba-bashing clearly didn't work either

so it couldn't have hurt to have a more conciliatory line towards Cuba. And that money is not free. Venezuela gets thousands of doctors and teachers to help its poor and most vulnerable. I'm betting those folks who get those services don't care how much the price tag is.

[joshcryer]

35. It gained him 20 points.

It was what the people wanted to hear, apparently.

[Daniel537]

37. Apparently not.

51>49. Capriles still hasn't made that jump over 50.

[joshcryer]

40. Another point and he would have.

Not sure what you're saying.

The trend he had going was 60k votes a day (the campaign was only 10 days). Had he been allowed another week to campaign this would've been an entirely different story.

[Daniel537]

42. Maybe, but he didn't get another week. So these are the results we have.

What i'm saying is Capriles gained ground on the Chavistas, but it still wasn't enough. He still has folks he needs to win over in order to win the Presidency if he wants to in 2018.

[joshcryer]

46. Sounds more like Maduro has folks he needs to win over to govern.

Jailing the leader of nearly half the country is not the right way to go about that.

[naaman fletcher]

33. He didn't say he would end the missions

He said that instead of giving away oil on the cheap, he would sell it for cash and use the cash to pay for services. That is much more transparent.

[Daniel537]

44. And the people disagreed with him on that. n/t

[Bacchus4.0]

14. the chavistas are responsible for screwing up what needs fixing

they only thing they fix are elections and their bank accounts.

[Daniel537]

17. And you don't get to make that call, pal.

The people spoke. Clearly they didn't think the Chavistas were as bad as you say they are. Don't like it, take it up with them.

[joshcryer]

19. Oh, yeah, chavistas didn't jump ship at all.

They stayed the course.

[Daniel537]

21. Yes, they did for the most part.

51 trumps 49. It doesn't get much more simple than that. Capriles can try again in 2018. But for now, move on and get over it.

[joshcryer]

25. That's what they said to Al Gore.

[Daniel537]

27. Yeah but at least Gore actually won more votes than Bush.

Capriles can't say that.

[joshcryer]

29. That's what they said to Kerry.

[Daniel537]

41. And i don't believe there was fraud in Ohio in 2004.

I don't automatically buy into all these conspiracy theories of voter fraud by this side or that side. I like to see actual evidence.

[joshcryer]

45. You didn't support calls for investigations into fraud?

Well, I did. At the minimum it should've been looked in to and not dismissed as what happened with Kerry (unfortunately Kerry didn't come out and ask for the investigations).

[Daniel537]

49. I support investigations backed-up with facts.

I'm not one of these people who mindlessly claims shenanigans because my side lost. Maybe Kerry should have called for an investigation, but he didn't and once you concede that's it.

[joshcryer]

51. You seem to believe that I think Capriles won 100% or something.

Capriles has claimed that and I think it would be stupid of him to claim that without evidence, but otherwise I am merely supporting a calm, sane, response to the allegations across the board. Not arresting the leader of 49% of the population, not dismissing allegations of fraud before even seeing them, etc.

Leaders lead, they say, "OK, I see what you're saying, let's look in to it." You don't even have to be bipartisan to behave this way, this is just common human decency when something is going down. When a house is on fire it doesn't matter the ideological background, everyone will try to help out.

Maduro is promising to burn Venezuela's house down.

[Daniel537]

53. But its not up to Maduro to start a recount.

That's the CNE's call, and right now they say no.

[joshcryer]

57. If he requested them to do it they would be obliged.

Of course you are right that it is entirely up tot he CNE.

But the CNE can't say no if they haven't had a formal request.

That's just dirty politics.

They'll of course say no to the formal request.

[Bacchus4.0]

24. Oh, I am more than willing to accept an accurate result even if they voted for the clown Maduro

they voted for that buffoon Chavez over and over again. I can still point out their inept and criminal behavoir, and certainly am under no obligation to support the incompetent administration.

[joshcryer]

6. Look at this 1%ers house:

None other than Diosdado Cabello.

I am not excited about the death in the Arab Spring. The death in the Arab Spring could've not happened had those in power heeded the will of their people. Likewise, in Venezuela, all it takes is respect for the count.

The youth are fickle like that. If they don't get what they want, they will take to the streets.

[flamingdem]

52. yes, it's about the 99% and the history of US imperialism in Latin America

where the US expects a manifest destiny wink wink nod understanding among elites and enforces it with thugs like Otto Reich.

[Daniel537]

3. Oh yeah, the opposition is so peaceful

that even Capriles is distancing himself from them and their vile acts of violence and thuggery. Get over it, the election is over.

[joshcryer]

7. Capriles never called for violence.

And the opposition makes up 49% of the population.

[Daniel537]

9. No, but he was happily inciting it.

Calling the elected President "illegitimate", with no evidence, and urging people to take to the streets. Gee, i wonder what that leads to. And last i checked 49% is not a majority.

[joshcryer]

11. In the next breath he'd call for a peaceful process.

Venezuela is a very violent country, in the top 5-10 in the world. Guns are everywhere. Hundreds of people die needlessly every week. Please don't concern me with the inciting to violence crap.

I agree that Capriles shouldn't have said what he did without evidence, but he's shown a chunk of the evidence already, and they're probably going to arrest him before he can formally present it. So don't worry, no one has to care about anyone doing any investigations and any violence in support of Capriles after being arrested will be on Maduro's hands.

[ocpagu]

64. WTF are you talking about?

"but he's shown a chunk of the evidence already"

He didn't show anything. Anything other than whining.

Whining is no reason for a recount. As soon as he presents one, one single real evidence of fraud he'll have my support for it.

I'm still waiting.

[joshcryer]

65. Spoke too soon.

I'd watched his press conference and not gone over what he alleged (which was disproven in another post). There are still other allegations of fraud, but I concede that the evidence he showed was wrong.

[joshcryer]

23. BTW, I posted plenty of "violent protest" media here.

Why don't you go look at it, and then show me how violent the opposition really is.

This right wing narrative that the opposition is pulling Venezuela down into chaos is bullshit, it's exactly what the US wants, because a Venezuela divided and fighting itself would be very vulnerable.

[Daniel537]

26. The US wants what Capriles is doing.

De-stabilizing the country, dividing it further. Seems pretty clear to me. If Capriles had called on the people to accept the results and move on, he would have done the nation a great favor. But he just couldn't resist.

[joshcryer]

34. Sure, the US is happy Capriles is suiciding.

There's no question about it. Just as the US is OK with certain Arab Spring actions. When it suites the US, back it.

But Maduro could nip this in the bud so quick it's a joke. Do the recount. Simple stuff, Daniel.

Why Maduro would escalate this thing I don't know. Perhaps in fact his inner circle is infiltrated by US interests and he's getting bad advice. De-escalation would be to simply count the votes / do the audits / listen to the claims of fraud.

Instead it sounds like he's going out and arresting Capriles and Lopez.

[Daniel537]

38. I'm sure most Capriles supporters have "claims" of fraud.

That doesn't mean you take them all as fact. I'm just asking to see some evidence of fraud. Simple as that. And apparently the CNE agrees with me since they say a recount ain't happening.

[joshcryer]

43. The CNE hasn't even seen the allegations formally.

So why would they say that before seeing the allegations?

I remember Katherine Harris saying she'd sign the vote without the recount. We didn't like that then.

The CNE has acted really irresponsibly because for the 49% of Venezuelans who voted for Capriles it's as if their grievances aren't being heard.

[Daniel537]

47. But what exactly are the "grievances"?

Did the Chavistas block people from voting? Did they stuff the ballot? Did they force people to vote? You can't claim shenanigans just because your side lost.

[joshcryer]

48. It's numerous.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/110813614

The allegations should be looked in to by the CNE and Maduro's government would do itself and Venezuela a favor by simply doing it and laughing at Capriles for being stupid. That's what I'd do if I was confident I won. Why the escalation and the dismissal of 49% of the country is beyond me. It makes no sense.

(Ironically Maduro, at his acceptance speech, said he'd accept a total and full recount, but the next day they backed off of that and claimed otherwise; why?)

[Daniel537]

50. Well then that's up to the CNE to decide.

And right now they don't seem to be buying it.

[naaman fletcher]

54. Do you have the same opinion..

about the authorities in Florida whose job it was to decide?

[Daniel537]

56. Is Tibisay Lucena a member of the Maduro campaign/administration? n/t

[joshcryer]

55. Sure.

That's what Katherine Harris did too.



Note: I'm on record saying nothing will happen, not sure why I'm wasting my time, really. I just want to make sure my position is clear and that the position of the opposition is clear, because there are people on this forum posting misleading BS that the opposition is fascist and taking the country down.

[Daniel537]

58. The "leaders" of the opposition certainly are fascist.

You really think they would maintain the safety net for the poor in Venezuela? They constantly bash the misiones and blame Cuba for most of the ills in the country. Please, they are right-wing teabagger kooks. You don't need to be a Chavista to see that.

[joshcryer]

59. I have listened to hundreds of Capriles speeches.

I have no reason to believe the entire thing is a facade.

And the 10% of chavistas that Capriles won over agree with me.

It's that dang 1%...

(No doubt if the situation was flipped we'd already be well on our way to a recount though!)

[Daniel537]

60. I'm not just talking about Capriles.

Have you seen some of the representatives they have in the National Assembly? There are some wingnuts there that could give Michele Bachmann and Steve King a run for their money.

[joshcryer]

63. I've only focused mainly on Capriles.

No doubt we can both find crazies in the National Assembly.

MCM, for instance, is a firecracker wingnut (and not to be sexist but I find her weirdly attractive even though she's a total right winger and not normally my type). She actually said to Chavez' face he's a thief. It was the first and only time I ever saw Chavez flustered. (You may say he wasn't flustered, but I expected a much bigger comeback than that.)

Other than that, no, I followed Capriles, I listened as he called for the missiones to be enshrined into law, I listened as he said he'd cut off extremely disproportionate oil deals to other "friendly" countries, I listened as he denounced associations with dictatorships abroad, I listened as he denounced the devaluation and called for a 40% wage increase months before it even crossed Maduro's mind, I listened as he suggested amnesty for Cubans who wanted to stay in Venezuela (and a pay raise, at that).

And now I expect Maduro will use this attempt at escalation to blame the opposition for his not being able to live up to his own promises.