Radical Socialists Attack Student Protesters in Venezuela

[Bacchus4.0]

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/radical-socialists-attack-hunger-strikers-venezuela/story?id=18913348



A group of 40 students that is currently on hunger strike to demand fair elections in Venezuela was attacked on Monday night by alleged supporters of Venezuelan interim president, Nicolas Maduro.

------------------
On Monday night, supporters of Nicolas Maduro who rode in pick up trucks, motorcycles, and on the back of a large garbage disposal truck, drove around the plaza several times, chanting campaign slogans for Venezuela's socialist leader.

-------------
The situation escalated when a female student was pulled by her hair and wrestled to the ground, then punched in the neck, by a couple of Maduro supporters.

A chaotic melee ensued in which Maduro supporters threw beer bottles and rocks at the student crowd as well as two Molotov cocktails. Students, who were at the site to support the hunger strikers, briefly rushed away from the Maduro supporters but then "defended" their campsite by throwing rocks and other objects.

[Demeter]

1. And did opposing sides wear identification?

or is this some of the usual propaganda? Where is the verification?

[Bacchus4.0]

2. well Maduro said he wants them in jail

of course it will never happen. they were chanting chavista slogans. Just more of the same violent and vile behavior from the chavistas.

[Demeter]

3. Maybe Maduro wants them in jail because they are NOT chavistas, but provocateurs

again, where is the verification?

[Bacchus4.0]

4. chavista provacateurs certainly

why are chavistas so violent?

[ocpagu]

5. ...

[Bacchus4.0]

6. do you condemn the attack by chavistas on the innocent protesters?

or do you defend the chavistas violent actions?

[ocpagu]

7. Do you defend Republicans' puppies with such a passion in US domestic politics too...

... or would that compromise your disguise in DU?

[Bacchus4.0]

8. I always believed that babies were apolitical

this is a site for Democrats. Not anti-American chavista leftist conservative radicals. there are many "leftists" here, not as many Democrats.

Why won't you answer the question as to why the chavistas are so violent? You can at least condemn their actions I hope. Do you think they are acting in a progressive leftist manner?

p.s. you edited so I will, puppies are apolitical too.

[Mika]

9. "Do you think they are acting in a progressive leftist manner?"

Obviously not. That's why the doubt as to the credibility of so called "radical" socialists committing the acts.

Duh.

[Bacchus4.0]

11. or the "leftist" label doesn't mean a damn

since in actuality they are just brutish thugs. You're a big Castro fan I hear, I certainly don't consider that government liberal or progressive. Seems quite conservative and backward if you ask me. You can put the adjective "leftist" in front if you like. Its still conservative and backward. Time to move out of the 1950s. China and North Korea are leftist too. Certainly not the type of society I would want to emulate.

[ocpagu]

12. Oh, from your previous comments I can imagine the type of society...

... you would want to emulate.

Are you still defending Uribe, by the way?

[Bacchus4.0]

14. dude, Margaret Thatcher expelled the Argentines from the Falklands

which was a good thing. Uribe saved Colombia from being a failed state which is another good thing. I have no problem recognizing the truth unlike you chavistas.

[Mika]

15. Actually, its your labels that don't mean a damn.

That's why I no longer ask you anything.

Go to 31:40 of this doc, for a good explanation of your sophistry ...

http://metanoia-films.org/human-resources/#watch

[naaman fletcher]

17. strange looking boots

But what is the significance of them?

[Marksman_91]

21. Why can't you just accept that there are violent leftists in Venezuela?

Just because someone is socialist or communist or supports whatever other kind of left-wing ideology does NOT mean they cannot have violent tendencies. Jesus, it's almost like you think that just because you're leftist automatically makes you some kind of peace-loving hippie. Look, there are violent extremists in all kinds of groups, be they of any religion, political ideology, or socioeconomic status. To simply not accept that some chavistas are not violent is simply absurd and shows that you truly do not really have a full grip of reality.

[Mika]

23. Ms Cleo? Is that you?

Not sure of your grip if you think that you can accurately presume so much about my thinking from a couple of posts.

Let me flip it...
Why don't you accept that there are violent anti Chavistas posing as pro Maduro? Why do you refuse to admit that? Jezuz, based on your comment you almost seem to believe that this isn't de rigueur of the opposition to PSUV. To simply not accept that this goes on is absurd and shows that you don't .... blah ... blah ... blah ... blah.

See. Your kind of sophistry right back at ya.

[Marksman_91]

25. I fail to see how your scenario is far more likely than the one I'm proposing.

I never said I don't accept that there aren't violent anti-chavistas. Like I said, there are violent extremists everywhere. But given the evidence, it is quite clear which group is the one that tends to be the most violent and/or threatening of the bunch.

:large

[Mika]

28. Of course you "fail to see"

You don't recognize your own technique?

[Marksman_91]

74. Please, answer these TWO simple questions.

Last edited Tue Apr 9, 2013, 11:23 PM - Edit history (1)

NO changing of subject WHATSOEVER. Just one clear, concise "YES" or "NO" answer for each one. Nothing else.

Do you believe that just because somebody is a leftist, or at least follows some kind of ideology that is more left-leaning than anything else, that they are automatically incapable of performing violent acts against innocent people?

And if the answer to the previous question was "No", do you believe that those violent leftists can be found within the ranks of chavistas in Venezuela?

Like I said, a simple, concise, "YES" or "NO" answer.

[Bacchus4.0]

29. dang, those chavistas are nasty!!! n/t

s

[ocpagu]

10. Your candidate, who happens to be the outcome of a Republicans' program...

... to create and consolidate right-wing parties in Venezuela, was involved in the siege of an embassy.

And you're here talking about "radicals".

So you think it's ok for Democrats to support right-wing parties and a Republicans' protegee in a Democrats' board?

[Bacchus4.0]

13. why not simply condemn the actions of the violent chavistas?

its not that hard. Repeat after me: I condemn the attack on the peaceful students by the violent chavistas apestosos chanchos.

See? that was easy.

Well, you are not a Democrat but like I have always said, Capriles is progressive and leftist isn't the same thing. He's not a Republican and he's not a Democrat although I suspect he would be a Democrat if he were American.

So you support a homophobic, bigoted, violence inducing, corrupt liar over Capriles? Is that the "leftist" position?

[ocpagu]

16. You DO NOT support neither progressives nor leftists.

I've seen you attack moderate progressive presidents in this forum, like Lula, for example. I've seen you systematically attack all the leftists/progressive presidents in Latin America.

The only parties, candidates and governments you support come from the RIGHT-WING.

This is a fact. But try to deny as you want.

[Bacchus4.0]

18. Never heard you support Obama. I like Lula, I pointed out he was being investigated for corruption

which he is. No-one is above the law dude. I support Obama and I liked Clinton even better. I NEVER have heard you support Obama one time on this Democratic message board. NOT ONE time.

[ocpagu]

19. So look again

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11086778

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11086806

I don't think Obama is great, but I know any Republican would be much worse. You certainly won't see me supporting US foreign policy for Latin America, I believe that Obama is the lesser of two evils. But you won't find a single word written by me cheering for a Republican.

You seem to O.K. to endorse them and the right-wing, as long as it is south the border.

[Bacchus4.0]

20. well, one out of two ain't bad since the other one is just an article you copied

Anyway, I like Lula and Bachelet, and BIll Clinton if it makes you feel better. You like leaders like North Korea and China I assume, I like moderate progressive, there we are. Why won't you condemn the violent chavistas though? Would you condemn Santos supporters in Colombia if they attacked a peaceful student groups?


The students were simply protesting for fair elections such as no fingerprinting since the government would then be able to determine how someone voted. Seems pretty reasonable to me.

[joshcryer]

32. Please stop repeating this false and insulting meme.

Please. It's bullshit and you know it.

[reorg]

41. The Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung (KAS) in Germany openly admits

on their website that "Primero Justicia" is their partner. That's a political "foundation", a party organization financed through taxes, the foreign arm, if you will, of the Christian Democrats (right-wing German political party). They train, help organize and support Capriles' party. It's a known fact, reported not only on their own website but all over the press. The political foundation of the FDP (the other right-wing German political party) also supports Capriles (and the coup in Honduras, BTW).

[joshcryer]

45. Capriles party platform is hardly right wing.

And throwing out these tenuous connections doesn't change that fact.

Listen to a Capriles speech once in awhile.

[reorg]

56. The right-wing CDU commends Capriles for learning

Last edited Wed Apr 10, 2013, 02:28 PM - Edit history (2)

- through some of their "capacity building" trainings, I suppose - to target the undecided voters who are always found in the center.

Like Obama, who can take the left for granted, Capriles doesn't have to worry about the ultra-right. So he mostly focuses on centrists, trying to make them believe he is one of them, and even pretends he is going to preserve some of what Chavez has achieved. (But it is necessary to ... decentralise, not subsidise, pursue a more inclusive approach towards the private sector, bla bla bla, like his trainers have presumably told him).

Oh, and I DID listen to a Capriles speech today! Honest! On VTV, some 10 minutes or so. Very awkward, unengaging speaker, the content meaningless blather - as can be expected from any campaign speech, I suppose.

What is up with his right arm, anyway, why is he incessantly punching his fist up and down? Looks like a cramp. And you seriously believed this guy was going places?

[joshcryer]

60. Wow, 10 minutes!

Do you credit Capriles for being first to support a wage increase in Venezuela, after Maduro came out and said it will be done?

Oh, I suppose not, it's not "engaging."

Capriles didn't lead as a neoliberal as Mayor or as Governor, it makes no sense for him to spend over a decade working for the Venezuelan people only to magically turn into a neoliberal. I think he is geniune when he says he wants to follow the Lula model and I think that model is good for Venezuela after over a decade of corruption and neoliberal policies (ending export substitution, accepting IMF reforms, setting up a dual exchange system to make it into an export economy, selling oil to the US and buying gasoline back, subsidizing fuel to the 15% of rich Venezuelans who can afford cars, the list goes on and on about how chavistas truly are neoliberals in their own right while dropping crumbs to the plebs to provide a faux image of populism).

[reorg]

65. the minimum wage has been increased regularly

twice, every year. Last year the increase was 37.5 percent in total, I believe. All wages in the public sector are multiples of the fixed minimum wage, so I don't really know what you are talking about. Capriles "supported" a wage increase in the private sector, or what? How nice of him.

[joshcryer]

67. He demanded it after the devaluation.

Maduro didn't even acknowledge that the devaluation would hit wages. Capriles called for a wage increase months ago. Maduro finally vowed to increase it. Why doesn't he do it now? Chavez (supposedly) granted him economic decree powers which he could use to implement the wage hike tomorrow.

Smoke and mirrors.

Latin American export substitution needs to return.

[Marksman_91]

68. No, he demanded it for all workers, including those in the public sector.

Are you really refusing to accept reality as it is?

[reorg]

79. as I said

Last edited Wed Apr 10, 2013, 12:04 PM - Edit history (1)

how nice of him. Unfortunately, it's not his business to interfere with bargaining in the private sector. He can say to business owners that they should raise wages, but he cannot force them to do this as long as they pay above minimum wage, which I'm sure your daddy and granddaddy greatly appreciate.

Article 91: Every worker has the right to a salary sufficient to enable him or her to live with dignity and cover basic material, social and intellectual needs for himself or herself and his or her family. ... The State guarantees workers in both the public and the private sector a vital minimum salary which shall be adjusted each year, taking as one of the references the cost of a basic market basket. The form and procedure to be followed, shall be established by law.

Article 96: All employees in both public and the private sector have the right to voluntary collective bargaining and to enter into collective bargaining agreements, subject only to such restrictions as may be established by law. The State guarantees this process, and shall establish appropriate provisions to encourage collective relations and the resolution of labor conflicts. Collective bargaining agreements cover all workers who are active as of the time they are signed, and those hired thereafter.

[joshcryer]

83. Maduro following his lead, is all.

[Bacchus4.0]

22. this is the second attack on the students by chavistas

http://abcnews.go.com/ABC_Univision/News/venezuelan-students-attacked-chavez-supporters/story?id=18790096


not a word of condemnation from the DU chavistas.

[Mika]

24. I condemn rumors and "some people say" reporting.

Nonetheless, some people say that the opposition who are being attacked are being attacked by Chavista poseurs.

[Bacchus4.0]

26. good for you

some people say Chavez was inoculated with cancer, the US is trying to kill BOTH Maduro and Capriles, and (insert chavista lie here). Those people are morons of course.

enjoy your fox news programming.

[joshcryer]

30. All sides always say that when attacks happen.

The question is which side has the highest frequency of these attacks? And which side has had their side murdered?

There was a website in 2012 that chronicled Chavista violence.

It was immense.

[reorg]

42. your post went right over some people's head, it seems n/t

[Arctic Dave]

27. Hunger strike for fair elections? LOL

What a bunch of fucking morons. They have fair elections.

Their party sucks and no one wants anything to do with them except fellow facist.

[joshcryer]

31. They don't like mandatory fingerprinting before voting.

Yeah, real fascist of them.

Next thing I'm sure you'll be supporting elections with all electronic voting machines that fingerprint you when you vote.

[Arctic Dave]

33. Yeah, heaven forbid to have a way to match votes to people.

That would mean you could verify the actual vote to the person! THAT'S CRAZY TALK!

[joshcryer]

34. Sure is, the vote should be anonymous.

Next thing you'll be voicing your support for Diebold or SmartMatic.

[Arctic Dave]

40. How is giving a finger print different then signing for your ballot?

Oh! I know! You can't forge your fingerprint but you can forge a signature.


Try again.

[joshcryer]

44. Huh? The fingerprint sets up the vote session.

That is biometric data that can be transfered.

When you sign something you aren't transferring any data to the voting area.

http://www.smartmatic.com/fileadmin/users/docs/SAES/Smartmatic_Electoral_Solutions_v5.4.pdf

Read the system: Monitoring the status of voters who have already used the machine, in order to prevent double voting.

Now, think, if the machine has data transfer where voters who already voted are locked out, that means that the machine is capable of registering what their vote is, with a simple bit of code manipulation.

[Arctic Dave]

50. LOL. OK.

I don't see where you use your fingerprint to activate the system. It sounds as iof they are two seperate processes.

Just like signing for your ballot then going into the booth.


Plus it is auditable.

The horor. No wonder the facist hate it.

[joshcryer]

53. It says it right there in the PDF.

The fingerprint activates the vote session and the machine reads the fingerprint and determines whether it has been used before.

[reorg]

76. no, you misread it

The machine that reads fingerprints to authenticate the voter and stores/checks if he has already voted:

SAES-RSA (Remote Session Activator)
Peripheral USB device that allows authenticating the voter using his biometric information,
in order to unlock the voting machine.
• Voter authentication by fingerprint capture through an integrated reader.
• Inputting of the voter’s information through a numeric keypad.
• Information is displayed on a polychromatic screen.
• Indication of the status of processes through LED lights and audio signals.
• Monitoring the status of voters who have already used the machine, in order to prevent
double voting.

is not the machine that gets activated and where the actual voting takes place. It says somewhere on the website that the activation has to be carried out by some official at the polling station, i.e. you must do something, press a button when the voter is recognized as authentic. So, obviously, there is some connection between the two machines before the vote takes place, but it surely has not to be very complicated and should be easy to check out for professionals if some unwarranted data transfer is occurring.

[joshcryer]

84. "should be easy to check"

Which is why Smartmatic isn't releasing the source code and which is why an audit of the machines and the code hasn't been done since 2005 (and in that audit there were issues which were found but those were forgotten I'm sure).

[reorg]

86. should have happened on Monday

6. Audit of the Technological Infrastructure of the National Totaling Center, April 8th. This is where technicians from the political parties check the entire infrastructure (servers and communication components) installed in the data centers dedicated to totaling the ballots.

http://www.smartmatic.com/english/case-studies/view/article/audits-and-tests-venezuela-presidential-election-2013/

[joshcryer]

89. They couldn't audit the code that quick.

And there's no evidence that Smartmatic even allows them to audit the code.

The fact that PSUV members had the BIOS passwords is enough for the CNE to require a full code audit across the board. But because it was PSUV members and not opposition members that's not happening.

[Arctic Dave]

58. And just for good measure.

ASIA
The Philippines
Electoral supplier since 2008. In the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao (ARMM) elections 2,558 voting machines were used for an estimated
1,621,745 voters. In the general elections (the largest and most complex electronic voting deployment in the world to date using optical ballot readers,
and working under a single, integrated voting system), about 800 million votes from some 50 million voters were recorded, transmitted, and tallied.
2008: Elections in the Autonomous Region in Muslim Mindanao (ARMM).
2010: General Elections.
THE AMERICAS
United States
Smartmatic participated in some 50 electoral events since 2006, deployed about 192,250 voting machines that were used by approximately
29,527,428 American voters.
2006: Primary Elections and General Elections in counties of Illinois, Nevada, California, Michigan, Wisconsin, Colorado, Arizona, Florida and Washington.
2007: Municipal Elections in Cook County, Illinois, the second largest jurisdiction in the United States after Los Angeles and also the only one in the country which
used encrypted transmission of results.
2007: Supplementary Municipal Election in Cook County, Illinois.
2008: Primary Elections in Cook County, Illinois.
Venezuela
Since 2004, Smartmatic has served as supplier for all national and regional electoral processes. Some 13 elections, where voting machines have undergone close to
250,000 deployments, and over 350 million votes have been counted.
2004: Presidential Recall Referendum.
2005: Municipal and Parish Elections and Parliamentary Elections.
2006: Presidential Election.
2007: Constitutional Referendum.
2008: Regional Elections.
2009: Constitutional Amendment Referendum.
2010: Parliamentary Elections.
2012: Presidential and Regional Elections
Argentina
Smartmatic technology has been used both in binding and non-binding pilot elections in the regions of Bataan, Mar del Plata, Buenos Aires Province, Mendoza
and Ushuaia. In these processes, some 85,000 voters have expressed their choices using some 120 voting machines.
2006: Bataan Municipal Officer. Snow Queen Election (electronic voting demonstration in the province of Mendoza). Citizen awareness campaign for electronic
vote in Buenos Aires.
2008: Referendum for the Creation of a Social Capital Fund for Housing in Ushuaia, Tierra del Fuego Province.
2009 and 2010: Satisfaction survey in San Luis Digital, organized by Universidad de la Punta.
Brazil
Smartmatic provided support, maintenance and setup services for the 2012 Municipal Elections. The project included the setup of 500,000 voting machines, and the
recruiting and training of technical personnel to man over 400,000 polling stations. Smartmatic also provided support for the configuration and deployment of satellite
devices enabling voice and data communications during the elections to 16 of the country’s most isolated states.
2012: Support and setup services for voting machines during the Municipal Elections.
Colombia
This country has held pilot electronic elections in order to evaluate and discuss the future implementation of electronic voting.
2007: Pilot run in Bogotá, Pereira and San Andres, organized by the Registrar CIDLIS.
2009: Pilot of the Primary Election for the Liberal Party, Polo Democratico and MIRA.
Perú
The National Office of Electoral Processes (ONPE) in Peru has organized pilot electronic elections in order to evaluate the benefits of the technology and decide whether
to automate their electoral processes. Smartmatic participated with its auditable voting solution in the simulation run held in 2006.
2005: Pilot election project in Chiclayo.
THE CARIBBEAN
Netherlands Antilles
Curacao, the largest and most populous island of the Netherlands Antilles, has used Smartmatic’s solution since 2007. About 500 voting machines
with paper receipts have been deployed in three elections for some 112,541 electors.
2007: Island Council Election.
2009: Island Council Election.
2010: Elecciones Parlamentarias
EUROPA
Belgium
In October 2012, 17,000 Smartmatic voting machines and over 3,000 e-ballots were deployed in the country for the use of approximately
3 million voters, distributed among 3,346 polling stations in 115 communes across the regions of Flanders and Brussels.
2011: Pilot Electronic Voting for Local Elections 2012.
2012: Local Elections in Brussels and Flanders Region.
ÁFRICA
Mali
Smarmatic carried out a voting pilot in the city of Kati, with 10 machines for 3,923 voters.
2009: Pilot Regional Parliamentary Elections (Kati)
07

[joshcryer]

64. Point being?

Doesn't your post simply illustrate that Smartmatic is as odious as Diebold?

[Arctic Dave]

69. Yeah, that 100% verifiable is just like Diebold.

Once more because it's just to fun not to do it again.

[joshcryer]

72. That domination in elections around the world is.

[Marksman_91]

36. You could just use the personal ID document, or the Cédula de Identidad.

That's how it's done outside of Venezuela. I voted that way in New Orleans last October, and it worked perfectly. You show your cédula, which EVERY Venezuelan should have, and that's it, you're done. Name's already registered as having voted, you write (or cross) your choice in your ballot, submit it anonymously in the submission box, and there, you're done. No electronic machine involved which reads your fingerprint that might potentially reveal who you voted for.

[Arctic Dave]

39. How is that different then scanning?

If you show your ID and they cross it off without signing what is to keep people from doing it for someone who has not voted?

[joshcryer]

46. The problem is identity data transfer.

If you had to swipe your ID, or if you had to use your fingerprint, or if you had to use the RFID on your passport or something, that data then gets read into some code which can then transfer the data to the voting machine or whatever database is being used to tally votes.

[Arctic Dave]

51. It does not say they are intergrated to do that.

You are reading in to it your own tin foil wants.

[joshcryer]

54. Yes it does.

It says that the fingerprint reader activates the session remotely.

[Marksman_91]

49. joschcryer couldn't have said it better.

Basically, the way I did it, I presented my ID, they crossed me off the list, gave me a piece of paper where each candidate's portrait is shown, and then I get to go to a ballot box where nobody can see who you're crossing off as your choice. Then you submit your paper into a box where all other ballots are randomly mixed. There's no sign at all on the paper which shows some hint of your identity, making it completely anonymous. Instead, if you were to use an electronic voting method, you never know if your identity is being kept a secret when you choose your candidate within the software.

[Arctic Dave]

52. There is nothing saying the two system are integrated.

All it is doing now is changing the photo ID process to a fingerprint, like I said before, is none transferable. Plus you cannot sign off a name that has not voted.

[joshcryer]

55. BS, it's called a "Remote session activator."

Normally you get your ID verified and are handed a smart card to activate your vote session. This does it remotely, after scanning your fingerprint.

Note: they still use IDs in Venezuela, the fingerprinting was added on right before the previous elections.

[Arctic Dave]

57. These have already been used in Venezuela

for several years but now they BAD!

So once again you are making up your your own TF story.


LOL

The facist just can't stand nobody wants them around and are grasping at straws.

[joshcryer]

61. No, the fingerprinting didn't get adopted until 2012.

Students protested it then, as well.

[Arctic Dave]

63. So yeah, they've been used already in Venezeula.

But, Oz Noez!

Hair on fire, hair on fire!!1111!

[joshcryer]

66. Opposition abstention was 20%, too.

So, it's possible fears of recrimination stopped opposition voters from voting (likely the intended reason for adding in the remote session activator fingerprint scanners).

The chavistas showed with the Tascon List they had no fear of punishing those who don't vote for them.

Capriles and Lopez even came out with a video telling people their vote was safe, as reorg posted below (as evidence that the vote was, indeed, safe), this was to prevent people from abstaining for fears the vote wasn't safe.

These students are protesting a legit cause whether you want to believe it or not.

[Arctic Dave]

70. Sure. I'm sure the Belgians were afraid too.

[joshcryer]

73. The "auditors" left out important issues with the systems.

http://rop.gonggri.jp/?p=649

So, no, voters, ignorant of a bad voting system, weren't afraid there, no.

[Arctic Dave]

75. LOL!

Again.

[joshcryer]

81. You're laughing at a guy the US government demanded tweets from.

A wikileaks guy. Funny, yeah.

[Arctic Dave]

91. Our government is a authoritarian cesspool.

They spy on and bully everyone.

[reorg]

35. again with the conspiracy theories?

Why don't you listen to your lord and master:

Capriles: "El voto es secreto"

Leopoldo Lopez: "No tenemos ninguna duda de que el voto es secreto"

Carter: "The election process in Venezuela is the best in the world"

However to the consternation of some, experts refer to the Venezuelan electoral system as one of the most technological, reliable, and transparent systems existing worldwide. In fact, this automated election system, manufactured by Smartmatic Corporation, rules out any possible fraud that would otherwise go undetected.

http://www.coha.org/venezuelan-elections-a-primer/

Audits and Tests Venezuela Presidential Election 2013

[joshcryer]

37. Going to start supporting Diebold next?

I do not think that the voting machines are compromised or that peoples votes will be registered.

But I am not too ignorant to believe that said possibility with the fingerprinting system in place is not possible.

PSUV workers were caught with the BIOS passwords to the machines recently. It was shrugged off, as is typical in these cases.

http://www.el-nacional.com/politica/tu_decides/CNE-detecto-irregularidad-BIOS-PSUV_0_168583303.html

http://www.eluniversal.com/nacional-y-politica/130409/oposicion-es-detectable-si-psuv-intenta-usar-la-clave-de-servicio

So when students protest a mechanism that might allow the possibility for their identities to be known, I am not going to side against them. I am not two faced like others who would choose to side against protesters who do not like how certain systems are set up.

[reorg]

38. try again

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1108&pid=12625

Look at the last link in my post, if you don't trust those that you daily praise here so dearly:

Audits and Tests Venezuela Presidential Election 2013

These students don't "protest a mechanism". There is no mechanism. The machines and the software are audited before and after the election. The source code is open.

And no, personally I don't feel the need for voting machines. We have paper ballots and identify ourselves with our mandatory identity cards, works perfectly. But, then again, we have no known cases of ballot stuffing or ballots gone missing unlike some LA states where this seems to be a regular occurrance. No longer in Venezuela, though, according to all sources.

[joshcryer]

43. Where may I download said "open" source code?

There hasn't been a valid audit of the machines since 2005. You can't get the source code because Smartmatic is a corporation with its own interests. I have tried to get the source code for months. It is simply not "open" in any way, shape, or form. The CNE may have access to the code, but it is not "open" for public consumption. In fact, given that if you look for the code there are lawsuits out the butt for Smartmatic to release the code, it may not even be true that the CNE has the source code.

Regardless, I do not think there exist a CNE conspiracy, but I am saying that I am not naive enough to think that a conspiracy is impossible. All it takes is someone with the BIOS password to rewrite the verify hash and then after the vote the software writes back the old BIOS with the old verify hash. Done. Now people who were finger printed would have their vote known and as in the Tascon List, be denied services or jobs for not voting for the almighty chavistas.

[reorg]

47. so I thought, glad you admit it now that you believe it's a conspiracy

but then your heroes must be in on it, it would appear!!!

As are their supporters in Germany, the right-wing CDU (Konrad-Adenauer-Stiftung) and many right-wing commentators in the media who don't have any objections to the system itself. They argue that it may still intimidate potential opposition supporters because they are clueless and may fear that the authentication process is somehow connected to the registration of their vote.

Capriles: "El voto es secreto"

Leopoldo Lopez: "No tenemos ninguna duda de que el voto es secreto"

Carter: "The election process in Venezuela is the best in the world"

1. Audit of the Electoral Data in the Voting Machines, March 13th to 15th. In this test, the information contained in the voting machines is checked and their configuration validated.

2. Audit of the Voting Machine Software, March 14th. During this source code audit, it’s verified that the machine’s operating system saves, tallies and transmits the votes correctly.

3. Engineering Test, March 17th. Evaluates the operability and fault-tolerance of the results transmission platform.

4. Audit of the Production of Voting Machines, March 21st to April 8th. This audit verifies that the voting machines are assembled and configured with the codes previously certified during the software audit; it is also confirmed that they operate just as it was defined. The process includes the random selection of a number of voting machines (previously selected by the political organizations) and the following execution of the voting process in them, validating their correct operation.

5. Audit of the Totaling Software, April 1st. This audit checks the source code of the software used in the totaling center servers. These are important because they receive the data, tally it, award the winners and publish the results.

[joshcryer]

48. I did not say that.

Now you're going to start the petulant reposting of shit and not address my concerns?

Smartmatic seems like they have a new spokes person.

I'm sure the Philippines would be happy to hear your reasons why they shouldn't be allowed access to the source code to audit the Smartmatic based machines used there.

[reorg]

59. Well, you implied that Capriles and Lopez are lying

which is a strong possibility, no doubt.

[joshcryer]

62. Nope. I just don't rule out the possiblity.

It's possible, that's all I'm saying, so these "fascist students" that are protesting are protesting for something that's plausible. They aren't doing anything deserving of, as another poster said of opposition protesters, "not being missed if they were swallowed up by the earth."

[reorg]

77. You don't rule out the possibility that Capriles and Lopez are lying?

And Carter, and every other observer of elections in Venezuela?

According to them, the process is safe and sound. There is no doubt the results are real. There is no regularly occurring election fraud like in Mexico and, some people say, in the US.

Even the protesters don't seem to doubt the results. What you find "possible", that the vote is somehow linked to the identity of the voters and stored somewhere seems pretty far-fetched and paranoid. Such a thing should be easy to detect.

As to the Judi Lynn's comment, I happen to agree. Whether it's mainstream, rabid right-wing press or Chavez hating blogs - I have yet to see anything that is of the slightest interest to me. I wouldn't miss them either if they vanished. If they were swallowed up by the earth they can come out on the other side. Hopefully reformed and doing something useful.

[joshcryer]

82. Nope.

They had their reasons for saying that because they needed voters to not feel disillusioned that their vote for the opposition could have recriminations like the Tascon List. Whether they believed what they said I can't say for sure because I can't read their minds. It's no coincidence the fingerprint machine was added only a few months before the Oct 2012 elections. We're talking millions of dollars of upgrades and for what? The system proved itself for two elections before that.

[reorg]

85. Okay, you have made it very clear again: you believe it IS a big bad conspiracy

And your heroes are only lying because they just HAVE to. Good thinking

[joshcryer]

88. I only suggest rational possibilities.

The entire dismissive attitude here is that the posters are irrational.

I expect the same posters would not say people in the US who are against voting machines are irrational.

[Marksman_91]

71. "Conspiracy Theories" is what Maduro has come up with these past few days

Things like the opposition wanting to sabotage the operations of CORPOELEC (when blackouts are pretty much commonplace even when it's not election season, and even when all of their installations are being guarded by the national guard at all times). Or that the group that attacked the opposition students (which I hope it's not an act you condone) were financed by the US government.

[reorg]

78. No, they have concrete information, taped recordings of phone conversations

which is not to say that there is necessarily much more than suspicions.

[joshcryer]

80. Did you see the Zulia's CORPOELEC Union head denounce that crap?

Chavistas are really good at pitting Venezuelans against one another. Maduro's insults against CORPOELEC were designed to play the blame game while at the same deflecting from the mismanagement that workers must endure. Working on electrical lines is one of the most dangerous job occupations in the world. Even in the US with high OSHA standards dozens of electrical workers die every year.

[Marksman_91]

87. If Maduro does lose these elections, he and many top government heads are gonna have hell to pay

Many secrets will be exposed, their corruption will pop out in the open, and the instant that many chavistas learn of this, they will go after their heads.

I still don't think Capriles will win, though. But I wouldn't feel as bad about it as I did back in October. Without Chávez, I find it extremely hard for this government to remain on its feet. Many chavistas were convinced that Chávez was the only guy who was keeping the government functional and efficient, and that everyone surrounding him were all just opportunists, but that only El Comandante could keep them in check. I know many chavistas now that will NOT vote for Maduro because they associate him with that group of leeches, and also because Nicolás blatantly lied this whole time about Hugo's condition following his last operation. I sure as hell don't believe he was exercising his duties as president like Maduro and the other delinquents were saying. If he was, he would've survived his complications. They openly manipulated their own supporters' emotions and use the figure of a dead man as a rally flag, which is just utterly disrespectful. What I simply cannot stand the most is how Chávez's own family completely allows this without some kind of protest. It's simply disgusting.

[Bacchus4.0]

90. some video of the attack and afternmath by government supporting scum

[Marksman_91]

92. Goddamn scumbags...

And people in this forum are actually supporting those chavistas.

[Bacchus4.0]

93. people here supported Chavez because he was anti-US

as they are. If you had an election on this board between Obama and Chavez, Chavez would win. chavistas would vote for St. Hugo and Democrats would vote for Obama.

[ocpagu]

94. Oh, I see... we are "anti-Americans" now...

As anti-Americans as the teachers who opposed US far right proxy-oil wars...



You're very good at appropriating right-wingers' talking points, Bacchus.

[Mika]

95. Yer with us or yer agin' us.

Black, meet white.
Nothing new here, ocpagu.

[joshcryer]

96. The Carter Center on the fingerprinting machines:

The introduction of the SAI system raised a concern among some voters that their identity could be linked to their vote, thus violating the secrecy of the vote. It is the software of the voting machines that should guarantee the secrecy of the vote. The software, audited by computer experts of both campaigns, instructs the machines to scramble the order of the votes, scramble the order of the voter identifications, and keep these scrambled files in two separate archives.

It cannot be modified without violating the digital signatures of the machines, which detect modifications, and without knowing the three-party encryption key described below. MUD technicians, therefore, categorically concluded there is no evidence whatsoever that it is possible to connect or reconstruct the link between fingerprint/ID number and the vote. Nonetheless, the visible connection, an interface cable between the SAI and the voting machine, caused apprehension in some voters that the vote would not be secret, and the official CNE propaganda picturing that connection did little to dispel those doubts.

The fact that we know PSUV members had the BIOS passwords should suggest that these student protesters have every reason to protest, even if MUD and MUD technicians sign off on it.

[Catherina]

97. Video testimony that rightwing rich little shits started the attacks

Update

This morning, 10 April, residents of Chacao denounced to Alba Ciudad that it was the Javu students who started the attacks. They said they had been doing their regular campaigning for Maduro, driving around in trucks with sound systems, when they were attacked with bottles, stones, and molotov cocktails by the "Operation Sovereignty" campaigners.

They said that in this confrontation, at least three Maduro supporters were injured.

Alba Ciudad reports that after these events, various Venezuelan private media created the story that "200 Chavistas" had entered the campaign area and attacked the students. The residents who were campaigning have said they are "hurt" becomes some of their comrades who weren't there have called them "infiltrators".

Video of the pro-Maduro residents' testimonies is available here, in Spanish.

http://venezuelanalysis.com/news/8559

#!
JAVU started the attacks againt other Chacao residents who campaign for Maduro

Chacao is where all the rich shits live and have their "Operación Soberanía" = "Operation Sovereignty" to keep Maduro campaigners and supporters out.

[Marksman_91]

98. So testimonies that took this long to show up are more believable than actual photo evidence now...

And calling them "rich shits" doesn't really help your credibility either. Is there no point you won't sink to?

[Catherina]

99. I apologize for calling them rich little shits

when rich little fucks is more appropriate.