Gettinghome past midnight?!

[Jeneral2885]

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-scotland-scotland-politics-33664317

"It's just stupid. A couple of Mondays ago, I didn't get home until half past midnight because we were voting. How is anybody with a family supposed to work those hours?"

Excuse me, lots of people have gotten home past midnight because of their jobs.

[SheilaT]

1. And if you're getting home past midnight,

you probably didn't start work until at least 3pm in the afternoon, meaning you had all morning to get out and stand in line to vote.

I've always worked some sort of afternoon shift, so I know what it's like, and I won't put up with bullshit excuses.

[djean111]

2. Do you stand in line to vote in Parliament? n/t

[LeftishBrit]

3. This isn't about citizens voting; it's about the work schedule of Members of Parliament.

[mwooldri]

4. She would have some idea of what she was getting herself into.

Unless you're standing for elected office to an elected body that has never been established before, there are other people who have been in the same elected office and can give anyone who wants to run for that same office an idea of what to expect.

Politicians the world over have had occasions of working to midnight and beyond... yes it's not family friendly - it never has been. Will it ever? I'd hazard a guess that if we had an elected chamber of people who were primary caregivers, and primarily female, they would still get pressure to debate beyond a specific time and to carry on talking until the job is done (or otherwise). It's the nature of politics.

As for the applause thing. I'm not with Mhari on that one. It may seem outdated, but to me it seems to be a good way to move debate along - to allow as many MPs to speak without wasting time for applause. Take the US State of the Union address... how much time did the US President talk versus how much time the audience was applauding him? Contrast this with the Chancellor's budget speech. Plus, with the Speaker there to keep order (not like the US House Speaker on oh so many levels) the speech or debate can be resumed more quickly than with applause.

[Jeneral2885]

5. Exactly

She forgets she's now in the United Kingdom not up in Scotland. I don't see how saying "yea" or "aye" is different from clapping. Clapping wont improve the lives of the taxpayer and dear Miss Black, you are being paid by all citizens of the UK not just Scotland for your duties down in Westminster.

And about electronic voting--so it helps but only just a bit. And you are in a place of tradition. If you dont want tradition, they stop Scottish dancing and kilts.

[Denzil_DC]

6. What evidence is there that "She forgets she's now in the United Kingdom not up in Scotland"?

And sorry - "up in Scotland" - parochial much? (I guess I missed where Scotland ceded from the UK.) Oh, I just read to the end and saw your jibe about "Scottish dancing and kilts," so I reckon I can see where you're coming from.

She, as a young person elected to Parliament, is reflecting on how archaic and unwieldy the systems and traditions in the UK Parliament are. I think they're valid observations, and issues like the lack of opportunities for organizing anything approaching normal family life have a bearing on the sort of people who stand as MPs, their efficiency while they're there, and the number of casualties among their marriages and in their extramarital personal lives - all of which affect how well they can represent their constituents.

Many modern legislatures, including the Scottish Parliament, allow applause as an acceptable means of expressing approval. The mass haw-hawing that emanates from the Commons chamber always reminds me of visiting Shetland and witnessing the hubbub of massed guillemots bickering on the cliffs - exhilarating in nature, ugly and laughable in a legislature. And the cover of that hubbub gives some the cowardly opportunity to make bullying interjections and fling insults that at times would be unacceptable in a pub, let alone a supposed dignified workplace that leans so heavily and sniffily on "tradition".

If you don't think there's room for reform in Parliament, that's one thing, but you picked out one observation Black made - about the archaic and utterly timewasting palaver involved in carrying out simple votes that leads to unnecessarily late sittings - without context, which led at least one DUer who responded to get totally the wrong end of the stick!

[LeftishBrit]

7. 'She's now in the United Kingdom not up in Scotland'

Umm, at least for now, Scotland IS part of the United Kingdom!

'dear Miss Black, you are being paid by all citizens of the UK not just Scotland for your duties down in Westminster.'

Same goes for any MP. Would you say of David Cameron, 'you are being paid by all citizens of the UK not just Witney/Oxfordshire/ for that matter, England, for your duties down in Westminster'? All MPs have to deal with a certain tension between their constituency or region and their nation as a whole.

And sometimes someone who is a bit of an outsider can point out aspects of the way things are done, that may make people think. So many MPs nowadays have little experience of politics outside Westminster; there are fewer people who come from local government or trade unions (or of course non-political fields), and more who started out as research assistants to other MPs before getting their own seat, than was the case in the past. No one is forced to adopt Mhairi Black's suggestions, but there's no harm in thinking about them.

As regards the specific issues:

(1) Late-night sittings do have their problems. Not only are they family-unfriendly, but I suspect that they interfere with MPs' never-brilliant performance (except in the case of true night-owls). And while some other jobs do require late-night attendance or night-shift work at least sometimes, the majority of jobs don't, and when they do, it's acknowledged to be 'unsocial hours'. Yes, Mhairi Black knew what she was getting into; and my sympathy for a 20-year-old going home from work after midnight is rather less than for a 35-year-old parent of three, or a 65-year-old with health problems, in a similar position. But I think it is something of a problem more generally.

(2) However, even if the work hours were made more 'social', it wouldn't solve the real problem for MPs with families: a need to divide home life between Westminster and the constituency. It's one thing for MPs for London constituencies, or even one like Cameron who lives close enough to travel to London and back on the same day without too much hassle. But an MP from Scotland, or the North of England, simply cannot go to work in the morning and come back in the evening. And this is an inevitable problem, however one arranges the working hours. I think that working from home on the computer can and should become an increasing part of MPs' work; however, there is a lot of personal interaction - both with constituents and with fellow-MPs - that is an inevitable part of an MP's work and cannot be replaced by technology.

(3) I think it is silly not to allow applause - however, I think that either way, it's very much a 'first-world problem', and that there are many more important things to worry about.

(4) There are traditions and traditions: I think Scottish dancing is far more worthy of preservation than many!

[Jeneral2885]

8. to reply

1) Yes it is significant as she thinks there nothing great about traditions and things can flow it her way. She forgets where she is right now.

2) I fail to see how electronic voting will reduce working hours. In any case, if MPs want more time with their families, then they all should not bother to head to Parliament every week. Just set up electronic teleconferencing in your constituency! (Btw, has Black bother to say how much electronic voting will cost the taxpayer across the UK?)

3) Clapping, saying "yeah" "nay" or screaming makes no difference. The whole voting system in Westminster politics is is skewed to the party of the day. And again, how does that help improve the whole political spectrum?

4) If she doesn't want old tradition, can Scottish men stop wearing kilts? That is archaic to me.

[LeftishBrit]

9. Young people do challenge traditions; and there's nothing wrong with that

Some traditions are worth keeping; some aren't. Mhairi Black as one individual can't force anyone to change or keep any traditions; but what's the harm in bringing up ideas? I don't agree with all of them, but there's nothing wrong with thinking about them.

As regards the wearing of kilts: surely that's up to the Scots? And the English have plenty of archaic-seeming formal-dress traditions of our own!


'(Btw, has Black bother to say how much electronic voting will cost the taxpayer across the UK?)'

How much do MPs' travel expenses cost the taxpayer - even when the MPs are honest about their expenses?! I don't think we can cut down on the travel altogether, as MPs need to meet one another and their constituents for many purposes - or one might as well elect robot-MPs (maybe some of them are already!) But any system which involves bringing people together from all over the UK is bound to cost a certain amount of money.

[T_i_B]

10. "If she doesn't want old tradition, can Scottish men stop wearing kilts?"

If you don't mind me saying, you're making some very odd comments about Scottish things, which actually have nothing to do with the subject at hand.

A bit like trying to bring Morris Dancing into a discussion about English politics.