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steve2470

(37,457 posts)
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 04:46 AM Jul 2012

very sincere question about UK society and gun-related violence

As some of you know, I'm a true Anglophile. Hence, please take my question with all the sensitivity that I intend.

Why is the UK not as violent as the USA ? That is my understanding. If I am incorrect in that perception, please correct me. I'm sure one can procure any weapon in the UK and do what one wishes.

Once again, I'm not trying to cause problems. I only have a sincere desire to understand. Thank you kindly.

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very sincere question about UK society and gun-related violence (Original Post) steve2470 Jul 2012 OP
The penalties are the deterrent here dipsydoodle Jul 2012 #1
UK can be plenty violent, depending on where you live. MADem Jul 2012 #2
I must admit, being the typical American, I forget about the sprees that occur steve2470 Jul 2012 #3
Most police are not armed Prophet 451 Jul 2012 #4
I remember back when none of them were. nt MADem Jul 2012 #6
So do I Prophet 451 Jul 2012 #7
Because there are less guns. non sociopath skin Jul 2012 #5
How long do you have? Prophet 451 Jul 2012 #8
thanks for a very thoughtful answer ! nt steve2470 Jul 2012 #9
By the way, since your sig picture gets automatically shrunk to 100 pixels high muriel_volestrangler Jul 2012 #10
yea let me post a big version here: steve2470 Jul 2012 #11

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
1. The penalties are the deterrent here
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 05:09 AM
Jul 2012

General details here : http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/d_to_g/firearms/#a26

Off course that doesn't stop those with ill intent from procuring them. With regard "any weapon" that's probably a function of price.

MADem

(135,425 posts)
2. UK can be plenty violent, depending on where you live.
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 05:36 AM
Jul 2012

My good friend's mum finally moved out of "the old neighborhood" after being mugged and beaten badly twice (she's in her eighties) and her flat tossed three times. There's plenty of crime in UK, the police are armed, now, for that reason. You're not going to find it in the peaceful villages of course, but in the big cities you shouldn't be surprised. And like anywhere else, there are "good" and "bad" neighborhoods, based on crime levels.

Your "spree" killers, if that is your focus, are everywhere--even "jollie olde Englande" and environs--who could forget these?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hungerford_massacre
The Hungerford massacre occurred in Hungerford, Berkshire, England, on 19 August 1987. The gunman, 27-year-old Michael Robert Ryan, armed with two semi-automatic rifles and a handgun, shot and killed sixteen people including his mother, and wounded fifteen others, then fatally shot himself. A report on this incident was commissioned by the Home Secretary, Douglas Hurd, from the Chief Constable of Thames Valley Police, Colin Smith. It remains, along with the 1996 Dunblane massacre and the 2010 Cumbria shootings, one of the worst criminal atrocities involving firearms in British history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunblane_massacre
The Dunblane school massacre occurred at Dunblane Primary School in the Scottish town of Dunblane on 13 March 1996. The gunman, 43-year-old Thomas Hamilton, entered the school armed with four handguns, shooting and killing sixteen children and one adult before committing suicide. Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 2010 Cumbria shootings, it remains one of the worst criminal acts involving firearms in the history of the United Kingdom.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cumbria_shootings
The Cumbria shootings was a killing spree that occurred on 2 June 2010 when a lone gunman, Derrick Bird, killed 12 people and injured 11 others before killing himself in Cumbria, England. Along with the 1987 Hungerford massacre and the 1996 Dunblane massacre, it is one of the worst criminal acts involving firearms in British history.

The series of attacks began in mid-morning in Lamplugh[4] and moved to Frizington, Whitehaven, Egremont, Gosforth and Seascale, sparking a major manhunt by the Cumbria Constabulary, with assistance from Civil Nuclear Constabulary officers.[5]


They changed the gun laws after the second one listed, that involved schoolchildren, but it didn't prevent the third.

There's also always been a difference between the 'reported' crime rate and the perceived crime rate over that way. All that said, crime is on the downswing in UK, overall: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2011/jul/14/crime-statistics-england-wales

steve2470

(37,457 posts)
3. I must admit, being the typical American, I forget about the sprees that occur
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 05:51 AM
Jul 2012

Thanks for that info.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
4. Most police are not armed
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 06:44 AM
Jul 2012

Police are armed in certain very high incident areas or on certain assignments (such as the Transport Police) and every force has at least one armed response unit on call but the vast majority of our police are not armed. And most of them don't want to be.

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
7. So do I
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 08:00 AM
Jul 2012

Well, technically, neither of us do. There have been specialist armed response teams in some form since 1936. But yes, I remember when virtually no coppers were armed.

non sociopath skin

(4,972 posts)
5. Because there are less guns.
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 07:36 AM
Jul 2012

Hunting and shooting is very much a minority interest here and, again except for a minority, there isn't the "frontier mentality" which encourages people to buy guns as a deterrent. And the police aren't armed.

All of which makes nonsense of the NRA propaganda that the more guns there are, the safer it is. Anyone who tried that argument here would be suspected of having mental health issues.

I'm surprised that you're looking to Europe for a comparison though. As Michael Moore pointed out in "Bowling For Columbine," Canada - where there are pro-rata as many or more guns than in the US - doesn't have the same problem.

The Skin

Prophet 451

(9,796 posts)
8. How long do you have?
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 08:12 AM
Jul 2012

Because the answers to that question are going to be rather complex.

To start with, the UK isn't less violent. We have the highest rate of violent crime in Europe and one of the highest in the civilised world. Assuming these (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/5712573/UK-is-violent-crime-capital-of-Europe.html) figures can be trusted, our level of violent crime is actually higher than yours. Our rate of murders is much lower than yours (1.23 per 100k to your 4.8). So, more violence (and about half of that is estimated to be alcohol related) but less murder. That might be deceptive though since we classify "violent crime" in very different ways.

Having got that out of the way, I think there are several reasons our culture has less murders. Firstly, we have less crazy people with guns. That's more complex than just saying that less guns leads to less violence but the fact that guns are so rare in the UK (and were even prior to the total ban on handguns) means that as someone begins to suffer from mental illness, it's less likely that they will have or have access to a firearm. Now, if you're sufficiently determined, you can still get your hands on a firearm illegally (how difficult that is depends on where you are) but people mentally ill to the point of murder are rarely functional enough to get hold of a firearm that way. Even before the ban, handguns were expensive and difficult to get legally here (and are expensive even if obtained illegally because penalties are harsh and professional criminals are the only kind that pay attention to penalties).

Secondly, our cultural tradition is that personal disputes are more likely to be settled with a fistfight than a shootout. Jesse James and Billy the Kid blew their opponents away. Holmes and Moriarty settled for a punch-up atop the Reichenbach Falls. The USA was established with guns and still celebrates that. England was established with swords and spears and I can't walk down the street with either one under most circumstances.

Thirdly, and on crazy people again, we have universal healthcare. I need to divulge here. I suffer from mental illness and, at one point, hospitalising me was a serious possibility. I am considered disabled (and receive disability payments) due to the severity of my mental illness (as it happens, my physical health has also deteriorated to the point where I require crutches to walk). Because our society stigmatises mental illness so much, I had to be eventually forced into getting help by my other half (and bless her for that). But if I'd had to pay for my doctor or pay for my shrink or pay for the cocktail of drugs I need daily (and get extremely unstable without); if I'd had to pay for any of those, I probably wouldn't be getting them even now. When it's easier to get a gun than to get mental health care, something is wrong.

Four, the divide between rich and poor is smaller here. The single most reliable predictor of crime is poverty. Put simply, the poorer you are, the more likely you are to be charged with a crime (which is not to say that you're more likely to commit a crime). The gap between rich and poor is fairly large here, larger than much of Europe, but it's smaller than the USA and, while we do have pockets of extreme poverty, we have less of them and because of the welfare state (where you get unemployment and housing payments for as long as you're genuinely looking for work), they tend to be less extreme. Now, the bastard scum Tories are trying to dismantle the welfare state and let's not even get started on that because I'd probably post something that would be (rightly) removed but the general point stands.

Fifth, we lock up less people. I'm not sharing any great insight if I say that prisons are breeding grounds for violence and violent or murderous attitudes. We average 152 people per hundred thousand in prison, you average 743 per 100k. You lock up more people than any other country, both in absolute numbers and per capita. You have only 5% of the worlds population but account for a full quarter of the planet's prison population. And we've mostly stopped locking people up for smoking pot whereas just under 800k people in your prison system are there for possession of pot. A stint in stir tends not to do wonderful things for your employability or attitude and you tend to hand out much longer sentences than we do.

Six, and this one is difficult to quantify, there's less racial tension here. Now, I need to make it clear that the UK is not a race-blind culture. We absolutely do have racial problems in this country and I'm neither innocent enough nor stupid enough to deny that. All of that said, you have Birthers. Birtherism is purely and clearly racism-by-proxy (something I won't say about the Teabaggers in general which is, I think, more complex) and yet, according to the Washington Post (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/behind-the-numbers/post/number-of-birthers-plummets/2011/05/04/AF3GAZxF_blog.html), you have a full ten percent of the population who refuse to accept that the president is a citizen because he's black. 27% of our prison population is minorities and yes, that's bad. But a full 70% of your prison population are minorities. Again, I am absolutely not saying that the UK is race-blind. We still have big problems that need addressing in that area. But that doesn't stop me pointing out that the US has huge racial problems that need resolving.

That's six major ones. Some that probably play a role but it's difficult to say how much:
- Our politics are less polarised. You're very unlikely to find major public figures saying that one party or other is deliberately trying to destroy the country (although the Tories totally are).
- We teach PSHE here. That stands for Personal, Social & Health Education, it's a compulsory class in secondary school (similar to high school) and it's designed to teach you everything you need to be a capable and responsible citizen (that isn't covered by other courses).
- Religion is much less of an issue here. While about 70% of the population are some variety of Christian, fundementalism is rare and the kind of fire-breathing, condemnatory fundementalism that someone like Pat Robertson espouses is virtually unknown. Since World War I, religion has been regarded as very much a private matter, something best kept between oneself and one's deity and not a fit subject for mixed company. When the media reported that the PM was considering converting to Catholicism, we were outraged... at the media for butting into such a personal matter.
- We're much more urbanised. That means that cops are usually fairly close at hand. Now, there are exceptions (my father lives at the bottom of a valley in Sussex) but in general, police are more likely to respond to a violent incident while it's still going on.
- We have CCTV fucking everywhere. OK, I'm exaggerating but not by much. It's eestimated that there are 1.85 million CCTV cameras in the UK, one camera to every 32 people. That figure is somewhat meaningless though because the the density varies wildly. In London, most of the high-traffic areas are under CCTV surveillance whereas smaller areas might only have one or two or none. It must also be noted that a significant number of those cameras are in private hands. Still, that means that if you commit a street crime in the UK, you're reasonably likely to be on-camera. Deterrents are generally worthless (because most perps don't account for getting caught) but maybe it has some effect.
- Abortion is a dead issue here. I'm sure this has led to a few deaths in the US but here, it's simply not an issue. The statutes are occasionally updated as new medical technologies become available but very few are interested and even fewer get heated about it.

I'm probably missing plenty of other factors. But this has already gone way too long and I don't wish to try your patience even further.

muriel_volestrangler

(101,321 posts)
10. By the way, since your sig picture gets automatically shrunk to 100 pixels high
Sat Jul 21, 2012, 10:18 AM
Jul 2012

the caption is completely unreadable.

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