An unheard of provocation

[TBF]

Fidel Castro Ruz (Havana. July 18, 2014)

An unheard of provocation

THIS morning the cables were full of reports about the unheard of news that a Malaysia Airlines passenger plane had been hit at an altitude of 10,100 meters as it flew over Ukrainian territory, along a route controlled by the war-hungry government of chocolate king, Petro Poroshenko.

Cuba, which has always stood in solidarity with the Ukrainian people, and in the difficult days of the Chernobyl tragedy provided medical care to the many children affected by the accident’s harmful radiation, and is always willing to continue doing so, cannot refrain from expressing our repudiation of the action of the anti-Russian, anti-Ukrainian and pro-imperialist government.

At the same time, coinciding with the Malaysian aircraft crime, Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, head of the nuclear state, ordered his army to invade the Gaza Strip, where, over the last several days, hundreds of Palestinians have died, many of them children. The President of the United States supported the action, describing the repugnant act as legitimate defense ...

More here: http://www.granma.cu/idiomas/ingles/cuba-i/18julio-fidel.html

[geek tragedy]

1. What intelligence did Castro have that allowed

him to so decisively blame the Ukrainians for shooting it down?

Or was this just exploiting a tragedy to score points?

[TBF]

2. I've really had enough of your constant propoganda -

putting you on full ignore which I rarely do these days.

The top hosts of this group can decide whether they really want this in the middle of our group. Frankly if we allow it there is no point in having a red forum here.

[geek tragedy]

3. Confused . I am discussing the subject

matter of your post. If you did not want this discussed, why did you post it?? If my question is 'propaganda' it seems odd to imply that the OP wasn't.

There is nothing in my post that in any way is remotely hostile to the ideology and goals of socialism. If the goal of the group is that certain political figures (eg Castro) can't be criticized, that really should be put in the SOP, much like the BOG does.

[Starry Messenger]

4. A question and an elaboration.

The question: are the goals in the SOP something that applies to your political orientation? Are you a socialist?

The elaboration: I ask this because if you (the global you, there have been an uptick lately) are an infrequent poster or even a first-timer in here, when your first few posts in here are to be negative or snarky, and then become a "rules lawyer" about the SOP, I have to ask myself what exactly the purpose of a person would be in here.

If you care to add a substantive and productive comment on OPs here, in the spirit of our SOP, that kind of contribution is welcomed. GD is for reflexive snark for all political ideologies.

[geek tragedy]

5. Answer:

Yes, I support socialism and especially the values behind socialism--economic inequality is bad for society as a whole, and that one day humanity will look upon the days of gross inequality as we look upon times when only certain classes were allowed to vote.

To put things in context, I object very strongly to the idea that there is a pro-socialism side in the Ukraine dispute. Ethnic nationalist clashes are exactly the type of false consciousness that European and Russian oligarchs use to maintain their status.

So, I will object to trying to lend the moral weight of socialism and equality to a fascist oligarch seeking to divide working people by their language and ethnicity. Because that is not socialism, that is partisanship.

To put a finer point on it, blame for an aircraft getting shot down has absolutely nothing to do with socialism. It is not based in socialist values, or modes of analysis, or policy prescriptions. No matter who says it.

When Castro does that, he does it as a geopolitical ally of Russia, not as an advocate of socialism (or a forensic investigator). And it seems certainly fair to point that out.

[Starry Messenger]

6. Good explanation, thank you.

I like what you pointed out about the false consciousness of ethnic clashes and oligarchy. I think there is more than one country where this is occurring, and not just in Eastern Europe.

I disagree that Castro was blaming Ukraine for the tragic airstrike and destruction of the people aboard. I don't see that in the language being used in his article.

He's reaffirming Cuba's support for the Ukrainian people, while repudiating the role of the current Ukrainian leadership for destabilizing the region to the point that situations like this are now occurring.

Yes, Cuba are trading partners with Russia, and Putin is deeply conservative. Socialist countries end up with allies unpopular with the US and Europe for historical reasons, having to do with our trying to crush them. If our countries worked in partnership with Cuba, ending the isolation, Cuba could be more choosy in their economic avenues.

In the case of the struggle between Ukraine and Russia, it isn't socialism on the horizon, no. Correct. I think at this point, working classes of Ukraine are struggling between competing sets of capitalists, and our conversation is over who will eventually be the least worst.

[geek tragedy]

7. The US persecution of Cuba

is so irrational it borders on psychotic. Another gift courtesy of Florida's electoral politics. I am no fan of certain aspects of Castro's record in Cuba, but Cuba is being persecuted because of the good things he has done, not the bad ones. Certainly the Saudi and Bahrain governments would have to improve many times over to reach Cuba's level.