From the League on Greece.........

[socialist_n_TN]

http://www.fifthinternational.org/content/draft-action-programme-greece

Folks this is fundamental Bolshevism and it's the only hope for the Greek working class. A long, but good read.

Edited to add: If it can happen in Greece it can happen elsewhere. This is the road map for the rest of us.

[white_wolf]

1. A good read, I actually agree with a lot of the solutions listed...

even if I don't agree that fundamental Bolshevism is the answer. The more I've read the more I've started to take a turn towards Syndicalism as the ideal solution to capitalism, however right now pretty much anything is better than the status quo for Greece and I think this program has a lot of good ideas.

[socialist_n_TN]

4. I think that there's probably a place for Syndicalism.........

but, like all anarchist systems, there's not enough organization to withstand a capitalist counterattack. After a revolution is well established, it'll probably devolve organically into syndicalism. But if it's syndicalist from the beginning, it won't succeed and we'll all hang. Literally.

[BOG PERSON]

2. i thought fundamental bolshevism

was that political line determines everything, so, you know, stick to your guns.

[socialist_n_TN]

3. Which is what this programme is.........

tactically and strategically. I use fundamental Bohshevism to mean we have to go back to what originally worked. The USSR is no more and the Stalinist version has failed. This is the method that the Bolsheviks used to sieze power in Russia in 1917 and it is the method that we must go back to if we hope to have any sort of success in overthrowing capitalism. Then hopefully, building the socialist state afterwards we can learn from the mistakes of the Stalinists.

As to "political line determines everything" and "stick to your guns", by that I assume you mean democratic centralism. I look at political line determining everything in the sense that Marx's analysis and prescriptions are still valid, BUT not even Marx would expect his words to become dogma. For example, Marx saying that the working class has an historic mission to overthrow capitalism is valid, but HOW that overthrow is accomplished will vary. And I'll stick to my guns on that until I'm convinced that it won't work. Of course, then I won't be a Marxist anymore, much less a Leninist.

[BOG PERSON]

5. the page you linked to says

"revolutionaries must be the most consistent fighters for the creation of a united front of all labour organisations, including not only the revolutionary, anti-capitalist, socialist, anarchist but also the trade union and reformist ones"

a united front w/ progressives, democrats, reformists, flakes, etc. would make sense if bourgeois-democratic revolution had to be carried out at the same time as communist revolution, as occured in the case of the russian revolution, where building socialism and abolishing feudalism went hand in hand. but isn't the situation different with greece? greece is definitely a modern liberal democracy, after all.

[socialist_n_TN]

6. Sure the situation is different.........

And this action programme is different than one that would be put together for Russia is 1917. Just like it's somewhat different than one put together for the USA today. It's different in particulars and situations, but not in methodology. The methodology (worker's councils, worker's militias, creating a dual power situation, indefinite general strike, etc) is fundamental Bolshevism. It's what worked.

Creation of a united front would necessary in Greece like it would be necessary in the USA. And it was necessary to an extent in Russia in 1917 (remember the LSRs?). It's necessary because capitalism would have a united front AGAINST a socialist revolution in Greece.

My one critique (brought up in the meeting last night) is I would have liked to have seen a bigger emphasis on the European and even worldwide support for a potential Greek revolution. That's a united front that needs to be talked more about BEFORE you get to the dual power situation.

[BOG PERSON]

7. i understand all that

theres nothing wrong w/ diversity of tactics. (diversity of strategy is somethign to be avoided though, imo.)

what i don't understand is why a party should enter into united fronts w/ movements/parties that represent the intermediate classes that are drawn to progressivism, social democracy, fascism, etc., under mature capitalism, if (1) the working class is the majority and (2) the communist party is the most organized form of expression of the working class.

that aside, i don't see anything wrong w/ the action programme.