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kurt_cagle

(534 posts)
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 07:07 PM Jun 2012

In Place of Unions

I believe that in retrospect, yesterday's vote will be seen as the death knell for unions - not just public sector unions, but unions in general. This is not meant to be disparaging, but simply an acknowledgement of reality - unions have been declining for forty years. It's easy to point to big money influence and hostile legal pressures, but the historical record has shown that there has never been a time in American history where the business community has been anything less than hostile towards unions, largely because such unions eat away at the foundations of investor-oriented capitalism.

I have been a union member, once in my life - a member of the National Writers Union. The money I spent on that exercise, about $250 annually, went towards lawsuits in which newspaper reporters were fighting against the Boston Globe in order to prevent work-for-hire contracts from being enforced. The lawsuit failed, but it was a Pyrrhic victory - the Globe came close to being closed by the New York Times (the owner of the paper) unless the unions agreed to major concessions. The Globe stayed open, the jobs were saved (though many were subsequently lost to the Internet) and the unions were, once again, broken.

My day job has been in IT as a contractor and later a consultant. Most of my jobs since 2005 have been short term - 3-6 months at a gig as a systems architect or consultative engineer. At least in my sector, unions are rare and generally unwelcome, because most unions end up placing job security and benefits at the top of their list. In a world where job security is a joke, where benefits are largely what you put aside (and which ObamaCare actually makes more possible) and where your personal reputation, not your union's reputation, makes the difference, belonging to a union makes no sense. Unfortunately, a growing contingent of the workforce are now essentially in that same category where the cost of belonging to a union generally outweighs the individual benefits to be achieved. This also tends to create a self-reinforcing feedback loop - as the number of people in union-related jobs decline, the power of the unions also decline.

Any alternative that arises to unions thus has to acknowledge the fact that the 1920s factory model out of which 20th century unions arose is no longer valid. Young people, when they enter the force, are far more likely to work for companies of under 250 people, which are in turn subcontracting to other companies of under 250 people. Service jobs are evaporating as more of the mechanisms for selling services (from manning cash registers to providing legal or medical services) shift to the Internet. Manufacturing has been moving overseas for some time ... yet just as some of it is coming back, 3D additive printers are starting to make their debut. What has emerged is an economy where you have highly rewarded specialists who have invested heavily to acquire and maintain their specialization, a secondary tier of mid-level specialists who are generally paid much lower rates, and a large population of people who don't have a valuable enough skillset to maintain employment, overseen by a thin core of owner/managers.

If you're under the age of thirty and you are employed, the chances are high that you are an initial sweat equity owner of your own company. The odds that your company will survive is fairly low, admittedly, but in most cases what is emerging are patronage studios - where either the initial employers or an investor creates a company to do or make "something" - as often as not virtual - primarily for the purpose of gambling in the market. The workers don't unionize because they own part of their companies. These people see unions as largely protecting many mediocre workers at the expense of a few good workers, and while this is a vast over-simplification, there is some truth in this view. Similarly, compulsory membership in a union, while it makes sense from the standpoint of giving the union more leverage, can be seen as extortionate if the benefits from joining the union aren't there. While progressives (and I consider myself one) may argue about people "voting against their own self-interest", in the case of unions the factor of self-interest actually plays fairly broadly.

Public sector unions are even more of a challenge. I work in Washington DC (on ObamaCare, actually) and in general what I see is that at the Federal level, most Federal employees are managerial, analysts or researchers. The vast majority of workers are subcontractors of subcontractors of system integrators, and even many of them fall into the MAR categories. This increasingly holds true at the state level as well. In general, the only real public sector unions left are those like the teachers' unions that are facing decimation as school districts become underfunded or disbanded entirely, and health and safety workers - firefighters, police, garbage collectors and others, and these unions tend not to have the financial clout to fight back. Lacking political support (and I'm sorry, but the Democratic party has not provided all that much support for the unions except around election times), these unions are going to face an uphill battle for survival.

I'm sorry that Walker wasn't recalled, but I can understand why he wasn't. Democrats need to understand that unions have run their course, and that the reforms that may make sense to a new generation - supporting a radical reduction of the self-employment tax (which hits independent contractors especially hard), reducing the ability of companies to front their contracting to contracting agencies that jack up the rates of contractors to double or triple what the contractor is paid, controlling how non-monetary compensations such as options are accounted, mandatory employee representation on boards of directors, providing tax credits for mentorship programs, and reforming the tax code so that it favors small businesses over megalithic ones would be a big start.

Eliminating income taxes in favor of a mix of sales taxes and corporate taxes might seem anathema to progressives, but in reality income taxes tend to be political footballs favoring one income group over another depending upon who is in power, while progressive transaction costs (for everything from purchasing food to conducting market trades) usually tend to hit heaviest those who consume the most. Consumption taxes encourage thrift and discourage wasteful production, providing an incentive to move towards a more sustainable economy. Finally, such tax systems are actually easier to manage - a significant portion of company's overhead either directly or indirectly goes towards determining and dealing with managing tax collection on individuals. By taxing production rather than labor, it becomes easier to account for taxes at the point of purchase. Currently, in theory the US government (and in practice the Federal Reserve) gets a significant boost by holding onto collected taxes and collecting interesting on that.

Put another way, Democrats need to recognize that unions are dying, partially due to political pressures, but more due to the fact that they no longer make sense in a hyperconnected, distributed economy. This doesn't mean jettisoning support for them, but it should at least examine the strategies that it currently employs. The Democratic Party can still be the party of Labor (and should) but Labor does not necessarily mean union anymore.


24 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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In Place of Unions (Original Post) kurt_cagle Jun 2012 OP
Most of what I hear that is negative toward unions comes from people who are not in a union. upaloopa Jun 2012 #1
How do you explain Sekhmets Daughter Jun 2012 #2
Union members voting repub doesn't change anything I said. upaloopa Jun 2012 #3
Tell me this, Sekhmets Daughter Jun 2012 #6
Those aren't the numbers: "Wisconsin recall: Union voters =/= union households" Starry Messenger Jun 2012 #8
Thanks for the correction Sekhmets Daughter Jun 2012 #10
Well, what's the alternative? Starry Messenger Jun 2012 #11
How does this stimulate business OR benefit a union member? ElizabethB Jul 2012 #24
I'm wondering if you're all hat and no cattle nbsmom Jun 2012 #4
But what has Sekhmets Daughter Jun 2012 #9
Please read the TOS for our group - TBF Jun 2012 #14
And I will also respond to your post - TBF Jun 2012 #15
I certainly did not Sekhmets Daughter Jun 2012 #17
Then start reading if you really are interested - TBF Jun 2012 #18
The post was intended to elicit commentary ... kurt_cagle Jun 2012 #19
Get lost looking for the Libertarian picnic?.......... socialist_n_TN Jun 2012 #5
Awesome post. nt TBF Jun 2012 #16
The contractor model .. kurt_cagle Jun 2012 #20
Unions organize professional workers as well. Starry Messenger Jun 2012 #21
FYI-This is the Socialist Progressives Group. Starry Messenger Jun 2012 #7
the op claims that most young people in IT = "an initial sweat equity owner of their own company" HiPointDem Jun 2012 #12
With the gap between rich & poor wider than ever we most certainly do need unions - TBF Jun 2012 #13
Also, I thought this might come in handy - TBF Jun 2012 #22
+1 to all of that. Starry Messenger Jun 2012 #23

upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
1. Most of what I hear that is negative toward unions comes from people who are not in a union.
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 07:26 PM
Jun 2012

As most illogical statements go, a person sets up a bunch of false premises and them uses them to support an already assumed position.

You seem to see yourself as the definitive source of data on unions. Well you are not. If you look at the chart showing the spread between the have and the have nots over time it matches exactly with the decline of unions. As unions decline the inequality increases. Unions have a macro reason for being and that is economic equality. That coming from a SEIU member. We pay dues and a part of the dues goes to fight for my self interests as well as yours.

What I am saying is that organized labor is not a self interest but a group ORGANIZED interest.

If you ever are to have a progressive era again the only organization remaining with money is organized labor. To call for it's end is to give up on progressive ideals!









upaloopa

(11,417 posts)
3. Union members voting repub doesn't change anything I said.
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 07:51 PM
Jun 2012

The SEIU supports Dem positions almost all the time and has endorsed Obama yet many of my fellow members vote repub. The money they pay in dues goes to support Dems unless they have told the union not to spend any of their dues on political campaigns.

Sekhmets Daughter

(7,515 posts)
6. Tell me this,
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 10:16 PM
Jun 2012

if one of your parents were being attacked by one of your friends would you go to your parent's defense or would you help your friend? It really is the same thing....This was not a general election. This was a single issue election....Do you stand for unions or don't you? Public sector, private sector....it should not matter. I am not a union basher by any means, I think the decline in union membership is very sad...but I think perhaps unions have outlived their usefulness in several ways. In many states public unions are prevented from going on strike and private sector unions are afraid of being outsourced....

I also think the unions made a big mistake being "reliably Democratic" it seems to me that the Dems have sold out the workers way too many times to be able to count on their support.

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
8. Those aren't the numbers: "Wisconsin recall: Union voters =/= union households"
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 10:51 PM
Jun 2012
http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/post/wisconsin-recall-union-voters--union-households/2012/06/06/gJQA3l6VHV_blog.html

The chart at the link won't embed. But it shows that union members only voted 28% for Walker (still yukky but a lot lower than 40%).

People who live in "union households" but who are not themselves union members 48% voted for Walker.

I talked to someone today who said that the 28% was mainly private sector union voters, but I haven't found any link yet that reports it. Hopefully soon.

Anyway, none of that signals the death knell for unions. Plenty of progressive states have blue union voters. And unions themselves are very progressive organizations, more so than in the past. The leadership is more center-left to left now than the Reagan-era leadership.

Sekhmets Daughter

(7,515 posts)
10. Thanks for the correction
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 11:15 PM
Jun 2012

But I think it was the death knell, because Walker successfully divided the public and private sector unions...that was his intent. Do not count on Blue States...the bluest of the blue, MA, has Scott Brown running neck and neck with Elizabeth Warren and he has a boat load of money. Private sector union workers are not making the kind of money they used to...they don't have the benefits they used to...they are very resentful of their tax dollars going to pay for benefits for public sector workers. When times are tough people cannibalize their institutions....I sometimes think the entire financial mess was allowed to happen because those in power knew this would be the end result. There were certainly enough people calling out warning signals years before the system imploded.

How do you live in a union household and vote for Walker?

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
11. Well, what's the alternative?
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 11:33 PM
Jun 2012

Go back to the 19th century? Child labor? No bargaining rights? Health hazards that kill hundreds of thousands? If unorganized workers were going to rise up and improve society it would have happened decades ago. There is no way forward without organized labor.


I sometimes think the entire financial mess was allowed to happen because those in power knew this would be the end result.


No, the people in power, the ownership class, have no vision beyond quarterly profits. They are striking at unions the way a shark strikes at a school of fish. Their power is threatened-they have to maintain their status as movers and shakers and rainmakers. If they didn't consider unions a threat they wouldn't fund this war against us with such enthusiasm, but it is simply in their nature. They are capitalists. They are superstitious and fetishistic.

Labor organized to get Obama elected four years ago in a working class multi-racial coalition that threatened the hegemony of the right-wing. They've been screaming like wounded hyenas ever since, using the clout of their congealed and ill-gotten wealth to punish us like some psycho child-abuser. Some people always sympathize with the bully. But I don't think organized labor is out for the count, no way.

Join Workers' Voice, join Working America. https://www.facebook.com/WorkersVoice https://www.facebook.com/WorkingAmerica Labor is fighting.
 

ElizabethB

(24 posts)
24. How does this stimulate business OR benefit a union member?
Thu Jul 5, 2012, 11:07 PM
Jul 2012

Could one the pro-union folks on here explain this line of thinking to me?

I don't have a particular affinity to "Piggly Wiggly" grocery stores (hah--I've been in one or two in a lifetime)....but what I see is a business owner that was trying to save jobs instead of just firing people outright. Sheboygan, WI is a relatively small town and struggling harder in this economy than many of the larger cities. When this store tried to cut back and put staff on part time, the National Labor Relations Union Board held that they had to switch them back to full time. Now they are closing the store and they are being butchered in the media as "anti-union". And, now the union is trying to shut down other branches of this business.

How is this productive for anyone?

http://www.jsonline.com/business/piggly-wiggly-in-sheboygan-to-close-amid-labor-dispute-5d5p0rn-159351345.html

nbsmom

(591 posts)
4. I'm wondering if you're all hat and no cattle
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 08:34 PM
Jun 2012

It appears that you are relying on theory and an untested hypothesis.

Organization, commonality, recognition, sustainability: those are values offered by unions. It is interesting that you failed to realize a key flaw of your next-gen 'hyperconnected, distributed economy." In your scenario, we are all buying and selling stuff virtually and you want a piece of that. Great.


I guess your vision makes sense if you remove the need for nurses, teachers, and safety employees. Your scenario makes perfect sense if you are a male in your 20s or early 30s in good health and no family to support.

But for those of us who have never been male, or have left our 20s and 30s behind, looking into the abyss where there is no opportunity to organize, to standardize, and to somehow introduce a measure of sustainability and a safety net, your pronouncement is cynical indeed. As long as Apple can nearshore their income taxes, and I cannot, this will not be a level playing field. Sales taxes are almost always horrendously overweighted against the families who can ill afford it.

I'm glad you're not my doctor, as you would no doubt walk into the room and pronounce me DOA without reading my chart, let alone giving me a diagnosis. (Sadly, you are probably involved in the type of healthcare I'll receive in the years to come.)

Take your head out of your laptop the next time you're riding public transportation. Instead of doing the math, really look around, try putting yourself in your fellow passengers' place.






Sekhmets Daughter

(7,515 posts)
9. But what has
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 11:00 PM
Jun 2012

your union done for you lately? I think that may be the real issue here. Every time I think of NAFTA I wonder why unions still support the Democratic Party...and no I am not a Republican...Perhaps unions would have had more political clout if their support had been less reliable. Unions were being dismembered by outsourcing and imbalanced trade agreements long before the Republicans took control of the congress in 1994. That's simple fact. Why are teachers still underpaid?
Rather than spending money on Walker's recall, wouldn't it have been better if unions had gone on a nationwide campaign to educate the public about the history of the labor movement and all the goods unions have provided? Hell, I'm, 64 and I can still sing the jingle from my childhood...."Look for the union label..." It was the song of the International Ladies Garment Workers union. In 1969 95% of the clothing worn by Americans was made in America. By 2009 only 5% of that clothing was made by Americans and the numbers were still dropping. Where were the teachers unions and the nurses unions and safety workers unions when the private sector unions were being decimated? They were buying Japanese cars, televisions and other gadgets. They were flocking to WalMart stores, which have spread like a fungus across the landscape, to buy cheap crap they didn't need. Perhaps you should look around and see just how the people who lost their jobs because you wanted cheap shit feel. Americans can solve this problem by simply refusing to buy anything but the necessities. They can visit consignment shops for their clothes and take a pass on that iPod, or iPhone or Kindle. Yes it will mean some short term pain, but it would result in long term gains. But they won't and eventually there will be no unions...and who will be to blame?

TBF

(32,067 posts)
14. Please read the TOS for our group -
Thu Jun 7, 2012, 08:41 AM
Jun 2012

I see that you are new to DU. Groups are safe havens for conversations and this group is socialist -

Welcome to the Socialist Progressives Group. Posts in this group should generally be supportive of socialism and socialists. We are largely anti-capitalist and will not tolerate red-baiting. We welcome leftists of all persuasion as allowed per the admin's TOS. Democratic (ballot box) socialism, revolutionary socialism, Syndicalists and autonomists are all ok. Pure black flag (as opposed to red/black) anarchists who would rather organize with any anarchist than socialists, including anarcho-capitalists and libertarians, will not be welcome. If you don't know what kind of anarchist you are, cool, so long as you don't hijack and red-bait. This includes no "you're a dictator-lover" if you support the Russian Revolution. CPUSA members, please chime in.

Social Democrats are welcome with the explanation that if someone believes in "regulated" capitalism and social programs, they're a Keynesian, not a socialist. We welcome your questions as long as you're pleasant and don't red bait or shift the discussion away from socialism. You'll find many of us support Obama and his re-election given our two-party system, but this is not the forum to talk about the intricacies of elections - see Politics 2012 for those conversations. We are more concerned with safe-guarding the working class gains we've made in this country thus far and encouraging the peaceful transition to socialism. Please no Trotsky or Stalin baiting, we've all seen it fracture groups and do not want to fight that battle again.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1024881


If you have any questions please ask and one of the hosts will be happy to answer.

TBF

(32,067 posts)
15. And I will also respond to your post -
Thu Jun 7, 2012, 08:48 AM
Jun 2012

The 1%ers in this country continually pit people against each other. As long as the masses are busy sniping at each other (over religion, gender issues, immigrants, etc...) it keeps them busy and keeps the heat off the 1% (who are robbing us blind on a daily basis).

"Made in America" is one of those wedges that they love to drive. Think about it. There are so many in this world who live day to day in dilapidated conditions while billionaires live in extreme luxury. Does it really matter which country anyone lives in? I am in solidarity with workers WORLDWIDE who want to band together to stop the oppression. Everyone should have shelter, food, clothing, education, employment, health care - that is a baseline. I am not arguing for globalization of corporations, rather that we need to realize we live in a global environment and act accordingly. Protest accordingly. Support ALL workers accordingly.

Sekhmets Daughter

(7,515 posts)
17. I certainly did not
Thu Jun 7, 2012, 10:11 AM
Jun 2012

intend to offend anyone and I apologize for having done so. You view Made in America as a wedge, I see it as a tool...one of several. The 1% became one percenters by taking advantage of cheap labor wherever they could find it. The only way to raise the living standards around the world, IMHO, is for the wealthier nations and consumers to stop supporting that exploitation. I would be interested in reading just how you believe workers can ban together to stop the oppression...and what you think are the chances of that happening.

TBF

(32,067 posts)
18. Then start reading if you really are interested -
Thu Jun 7, 2012, 11:37 AM
Jun 2012

we have tons of posts in this group that address that question. Dig in.

kurt_cagle

(534 posts)
19. The post was intended to elicit commentary ...
Thu Jun 7, 2012, 01:09 PM
Jun 2012

... and it did.

The central thesis of my argument was not in questioning the utility that unions provide, but in arguing that unions as they exist now have failed to address the very real issues of contemporary workers and a population that no longer fits into the mold of what unions originally were designed for. This isn't just the case of unions, by the way. Our business laws are ineffectual because there have been so many holes poked into them that they no longer effectively regulate the monopolies that have been building over time. Our taxation system is fundamentally regressive. Most corporations are built on the mold of the US military of the 1940s - command and control structures - even though in reality these are no longer really necessary, and unions evolved in response to that environment.

The question I was hoping to ask - and not sure I did - is what a 21st century union should look like? What's the best way for people to organize to counteract the growing pervasiveness of corporate control? The tools are certainly there (and I should point out that when I am on public transportation - which I am quite a bit - mostly what I see are people bending over their cell phones and ipads and laptops), but I think it realistic to ask whether the Democrats have been all that successful in making use of those tools - or whether the Dems have recognized that for many of my generation (GenXers) and younger, unions simply don't enter the equation. As the GenXers are now on the precipice of fifty, this equates to a lot of people.

socialist_n_TN

(11,481 posts)
5. Get lost looking for the Libertarian picnic?..........
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 09:55 PM
Jun 2012

There are alternatives to unions as they are constituted in the United States today. The Wobblies model is one. ALL labor in one shop (whatever type of shop it is) in one big union. And, quite frankly, I think it's a better model than the "trade union" one that has taken hold in this country.

I don't care WHAT it's called though, without working class solidarity, NOTHING will ever be accomplished. And that "contractor" model? Around here that's just another word for petit bourgeoisie. The petit bourgeoisie can either side with the working class or hang with the capitalists.

kurt_cagle

(534 posts)
20. The contractor model ..
Thu Jun 7, 2012, 01:32 PM
Jun 2012

is pretty much a given if you're in software development, entertainment, advertising and marketing, construction, anything involving governments ... chances are if your job involves the regular use of a computer, you're likely either working as a contractor or will have spent a significant stint as one. Most of what used to be called white collar jobs, though the collars have largely disappeared.

Here's a question - what's working class today? Most manufacturing jobs are engineering, design or software oriented - keeping the machines running, configured and stocked with materials is about the only "working class" jobs in most cases, and even there you're talking about fairly specialized skills. Haulers - whether of people or goods. Retail sales, and that's disappearing. Non-"professional" health and safety workers - fire fighters, policemen, nurses (arguably and increasingly less so as senior nurses often are doing the role doctors did even a decade ago), sanitation workers. Construction workers and traditional trades (most of whom are now also business owners and contractors themselves). Farm workers. Hospitality workers.

The point I'm making here is that the distinction of blue vs. white collar really doesn't make much sense any more - it's primarily an artifact of two underlying historical accidents - does the job involve being outside during the day, or was the job originally considered a woman's job? This notion of petit bourgeosisie is silliness, as the bigger divider is whether one's income derives primarily from earned income (i.e., a paycheck for hours of work or a job rendered) or does it come primarily from derivative income (investments).

Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
21. Unions organize professional workers as well.
Thu Jun 7, 2012, 02:01 PM
Jun 2012


http://dpeaflcio.org/programs-publications/issue-fact-sheets/the-benefits-of-collective-bargaining-for-professional-and-technical-workers/

"Forms of Compensation for Professional and Technical Workers in Unions

Generally, union members have favored traditionally structured hourly wages and salaries over pay that depends on productivity. Many union members prefer fixed wages because they are more likely to stay in jobs longer and receive deferred benefits, like pensions.[1] However, union members in professional and technical fields are more likely than blue-collar workers to have part of their compensation based on productivity or other measurable events. Compensation based on productivity includes bonuses, profit-sharing, incentive pay, and stock options.

In general, union members in professional and technical fields have accepted slightly lower wages in exchange for greater fringe benefits, which include health insurance; life and disability insurance; pension; paid holidays; and sick time. However, the form of employee compensation is a reflection of employee preference and is voted on first by the bargaining team, which is made up of company employees, and then members of the bargaining unit. “[A]s unions are political institutions with contract ratification and leadership selection done by majority voting…unions will negotiate compensation packages to reflect the preferences of the average worker….”[2]

In fact, there is a lot of variety in the collective bargaining agreements of professional and technical workers. Many collective bargaining agreements for professional and technical workers set a wage floor. The worker and the employer are then free to negotiate for any salary, based on individual performance or other factors, above the minimum salary.

For example, broadcast technicians at CBS Broadcasting, Inc. (CBS), who are represented by the International Brotherhood of Electrical Workers (IBEW) have a collective bargaining agreement that sets forth minimum weekly salaries based on their position and length of employment with CBS. Technicians can negotiate salaries above the minimum, taking job performance and other factors into consideration.

One additional form of compensation for broadcast technicians is overtime pay. The IBEW collective bargaining agreement states that any time worked in excess of an eight-hour day must be compensated at one and one-half times regular pay.[3] Overtime pay is a key source of additional compensation for union members, who are more likely to receive overtime pay than nonunion members.[4]"



Starry Messenger

(32,342 posts)
7. FYI-This is the Socialist Progressives Group.
Wed Jun 6, 2012, 10:20 PM
Jun 2012

I'm not always the sharpest tack in the box, but I'm not really seeing how this is on-topic for us.

Usually the IT people I see heartily against unions are the engineers who make $100,000 and nice bonuses. For a few years. Then there are the workplace slashings, layoffs and offshoring. The beautiful dream becomes an underwater house and a repo'd Beamer. I had lots of friends go through that cycle in the early dot-com bubble. They laughed at unions then too.

This proposal is such a hodge-podge of ideas, I can't even see how it is an improvement over what we currently have. Sorry to be frank. A reform shouldn't be complicated to explain if you want workers to like it.

Unions won't have run their course until the reason for them to exist withers away. And that is Capitalism. If any boss is enriching himself on the hours of time his worker gives to him, then unions need to exist. Public unions need to be able to bargain collectively, otherwise government departments will turn into crony patronage schemes. We've battled for survival before, this is another turn of the page.

 

HiPointDem

(20,729 posts)
12. the op claims that most young people in IT = "an initial sweat equity owner of their own company"
Thu Jun 7, 2012, 03:45 AM
Jun 2012

i guarantee you that's a skewed view.

TBF

(32,067 posts)
13. With the gap between rich & poor wider than ever we most certainly do need unions -
Thu Jun 7, 2012, 08:39 AM
Jun 2012

and please read the TOS for posting in our group:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1024881

Welcome Comrades!
This discussion thread is pinned and locked. It is closed to new replies.
Welcome to the Socialist Progressives Group. Posts in this group should generally be supportive of socialism and socialists. We are largely anti-capitalist and will not tolerate red-baiting. We welcome leftists of all persuasion as allowed per the admin's TOS. Democratic (ballot box) socialism, revolutionary socialism, Syndicalists and autonomists are all ok. Pure black flag (as opposed to red/black) anarchists who would rather organize with any anarchist than socialists, including anarcho-capitalists and libertarians, will not be welcome. If you don't know what kind of anarchist you are, cool, so long as you don't hijack and red-bait. This includes no "you're a dictator-lover" if you support the Russian Revolution. CPUSA members, please chime in.

Social Democrats are welcome with the explanation that if someone believes in "regulated" capitalism and social programs, they're a Keynesian, not a socialist. We welcome your questions as long as you're pleasant and don't red bait or shift the discussion away from socialism. You'll find many of us support Obama and his re-election given our two-party system, but this is not the forum to talk about the intricacies of elections - see Politics 2012 for those conversations. We are more concerned with safe-guarding the working class gains we've made in this country thus far and encouraging the peaceful transition to socialism. Please no Trotsky or Stalin baiting, we've all seen it fracture groups and do not want to fight that battle again.

(this post is directed to everyone who has posted their anti-worker garbage in this thread)

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