OK, a real question seeking real advice in a sticky family sitch.

[OrwellwasRight]

A relative of mine (Relative #1), who does not work nor seek to make income in other ways, has declared bankruptcy twice, and who has already asked for and received at least $100,000 from another relative of mine (Relative #2) (~$60K in a lump sum in the past year and at least ~$40K over the prior 15 years), who went into debt to comply with the request, has now come to me, asking me for ~$10K. This is a relative I view as irresponsible and only occasionally nice to me. Perhaps my responsiveness could prevent relative #2 from going into further debt to feed Relative #1's lifestyle. But I am not inclined to comply. I've always known over the years that this request would be coming, and I've never felt inclined to answer in the affirmative. Now that I am confronted with the actual request, I feel no different. The request makes me feel angry, like I would be an enabler, like I would only be turning on the tap for more requests. I hate feeling like a scrooge, but there it is. In her favor is nothing but need, and that she is a relative. She has minimal income, but she refuses to live within that income. She chooses to live in a high rent complex and does little with her life but shopping, spending money she doesn't have.

Any advice?

[Generic Brad]

1. You are not a scrooge

And you are not responsible for your relative's predicament. I would say no without hesitation.

[OrwellwasRight]

4. Thanks

[Coventina]

2. Tell them you will gladly consider it along with their plan for repayment.

This is what we have done with other family members who were asking and we didn't feel comfortable about their motives and/or attitudes.

In all cases, they said they would do so, then we never heard back.

[OrwellwasRight]

5. That's helpful.

Thanks.

[Coventina]

8. Good luck to you! It is a sticky wicket. If, by chance, the relative DOES come back with a plan,

and you find it questionable, ask for hard numbers (income, vs. their fixed expenses, etc.).
If they are unwilling, or insulted by that request just remember that is THEIR issue, not yours.
They are the ones bringing money into a familial relationship, not you.
Just kindly explain that you are trying to make sure that the loan does not backfire and cause a family "situation" down the road.

[OrwellwasRight]

13. I think it would all be for show --

she might prostrate herself to get the $$, but I don't see her having any intention to actually pay it back, given her choices over the past 15 years.

[Donkees]

3. Re: " I hate feeling like a scrooge"

Compassion doesn't mean becoming a doormat, or allowing toxic relationships to manipulate you with their self-pity.

[OrwellwasRight]

6. I appreciate that.

Thank you.

[Floyd R. Turbo]

7. Only with collateral and a detailed payment plan outlining precisely where the funds

for reimbursement will come from. Have the documents prepared by an attorney. If your relative is unable to meet your conditions or is uncomfortable with them then the answer is no!

[OrwellwasRight]

11. She'd never do it.

Even if she signed, it would be meaningless because she lives on a fixed income that doesn't cover the day to day expenses she chooses to incur. I'd never see a dime. As someone said below, I would need to make my peace with never seeing any of the $$ again.

[TeamPooka]

9. IF you give the money don't expect it back. Make it a gift, with no free refills. nt

[OrwellwasRight]

33. Yes, no matter what promises she made, I'd have to say

here is a gift, your one and only, and don't ever come back for more. I'm not a sap like Relative #2.

[Heddi]

10. Just say "no." It's not a dirty word. "No, I can't do that." is fine and needs no further explainati

explaination.

When my mother was alive, she would routinely ask for money -- $400 here, $1000 there, $50 here. I never gave it to her. Same with my grandmother -- $1500, $500 there.

My answer was always "no."

Not "No but you know I wish I could..."

Not "Gosh well let me think about it"

Not "no, but..."

Just no.

If they can't take "no," then they're certainly not going to take my money.

And if you do give them money, understand that regardless of any promise they make, you'll never see a dime in repayment. When you come to collect, you'll suddenly be the bad guy, cut off from all communication. So never look at it as a loan, but a gift that will only serve as a reason for them to come to you in the future for more gifts and more gifts.

[OrwellwasRight]

12. It's terrible to say.

But it makes me feel better knowing I'm not the only one with relatives who just try to leech off of the rest of their family.
Thanks for your blunt but helpful assessment.

[Heddi]

17. The ironic thing for me is that it was my mother & grandmother who warned me when I was young

to never "loan" money to friends or family, as they'll never pay you back. So, their words of wisdom led to me not coughing up one red dime.

My husband is having to go through a similar conversation with his 2 sisters regarding their mom & her husband. The conversations are pretty much like "Mom and Steve are having problems affording...." and our answer is "No, we're not interested in financing people who still buy $50 bottles of premium scotch and get $80 manicures every 2 weeks but consider themselves financially strapped."

Been 5 years that we've been having these convos, and they always end the same way. "no."

[OrwellwasRight]

20. Again, thanks of sharing your story.

It helps put this in perspective.

[mnhtnbb]

14. If you are inclined to give relative #2 $10,000 to assist relative #1

with debt repayment, do that.

Or if you are inclined to give relative #1 $10,000 with no expectation of ever seeing it again, do that.

If you expect repayment, insist on a signed note from relative #1 and tell her you will go to collection with
it if she doesn't meet the repayment schedule.

Otherwise, pass.

[OrwellwasRight]

19. Thanks

[rug]

15. It depends on how close a relative and how high the request.

[OrwellwasRight]

16. Very close.

And I consider $10K to be a lotta money. I'd feel a lot more generous if she had asked for $500.

[rug]

18. Well, I would give what I could and tell them to keep it.

If you have some to spare.

She knows the score as well as you do so I wouldn't lecture or have them sign a note. Sometimes it's the price of having a family.

Don't feel guilty either way and don't give what you can't afford or will resent down the road.

It's a tough spot. Whatever you do, it's good you care.

[sarge43]

21. FWIW, you should tell her no.

You have no guarantee that #2 won't turn around and give #1 that money. Don't be pulled into this.

[OrwellwasRight]

32. Thanks.

I have been trying to protect Relative #2 for years, but she kept giving money and saying "never again." It got to the point of hilarity if it weren't so tragic. Now she has nothing left. Literally.

[Thor_MN]

22. I have a sibling that "borrowed" $10,000 about years ago

I haven't heard anything about paying me back in about 8 years, even though a brand new vehicle was purchased two years ago, then traded for a newer, more expensive vehicle last year.

I'm not expecting to see any of it back at this point...

I have learned to say "No" from this however.

[OrwellwasRight]

31. Yeah, I went through that with "friends"

many years ago -- over relatively tiny amounts of money compared to this. Money that I never got back and was vilified for trying to collect. So I pretended it never happened to maintain the friendship. But we were talking $100, $150 at the time and people who had not demonstrated years and years of complete irresponsibility and disrespect for family.

Any more that goes to her I will never see back, no matter what she promises. I know that much.

[mopinko]

23. stay strong.

that's it. that's my advice.

[OrwellwasRight]

30. I appreciate that.

[GeorgeGist]

24. Stick to your decision.

[OrwellwasRight]

29. Thank you.

[TexasBushwhacker]

25. She's getting money somehow from somewhere

She needs to support herself or be homeless.

[OrwellwasRight]

27. That's true. And a bit scary.

But I wonder if that isn't the wakeup call she needs. No one has forced her to be responsible for her own damn self for 15 years.

I believe she would qualify for social services or maybe try her ex-in-laws for a place to stay, so I don't know that it would get to homelessness. But the only way I will get dragged into trying to maintain her in a home is if her income checks go to me and I pay her bills for her. I just cannot see throwing cash down her rabbit hole having watched her bleed Relative #2 of more money than I'll ever see in my lifetime.

[TexasBushwhacker]

34. Sometimes homelessness or the threat of homelessness

is the only thing that gets people to wake up. You mention ex-in-laws. Could she be getting money from her ex-husband?

If she asks you for money, suggest she spend a ight or two at a shelter so she can see what its like.

Could she be mentally ill? I have an ex-SIL who is incapable of supporting herself. Always has been. Eventually she was diagnosed with borderline personality disorder. She gets SSI.

[OrwellwasRight]

35. Well,

the ex-husband is deceased, as are the ex-parents in law. But there is one ex-sister in law with $$$.

She has been diagnosed bipolar for years. But plenty of people--some of my best friends--are bipolar and functional. More importantly, she uses it as a club, rather than as a problem to solve or a disability to overcome. As in, "Why aren't you more understanding of my hateful rants against you, I'm disabled and can't help it." "Why do you keep suggesting I get a job? I can't be expected to be anywhere at a particular time, I'm disabled." "I have a disease, why don't you feel more sorry for me?" "I'm miserable. My mom lied to me when I was 17. It's not fair." (She is a borderline senior citizen, FYI.)

And all this is punctuated with on and off sobriety as well as extremely hateful rants about how I ruined her life by being born and don't deserve any of my success because I have never worked hard a day in my life. I'm sure that's more ugly details than you singed on for, but suffice to say, I do not think I am as generous toward her behavior as I might be/should be because a lot of it has felt vindictive towards me and more importantly, it has felt exploitive and borderline abusive towards Relative #2.

She is on SSDI, which is why I think she may qualify for additional social services should she lose her home. But it is a small amount of money and she spends the greater part of her life engaging in online shopping. SSDI is not generous, but it is enough to live off of if you don't choose to live outside your means.

I believe this ask is her attempt to see if I will become her new personal ATM, having bled Relative #2 dry. And I'm just not feeling it, even though I do also feel guilty about it.

[TexasBushwhacker]

36. I'm on SSDI for depression myself

The thing about social services is that they always have more people that need help than they can serve so that usually means appointments that are months away and waiting lists.

If she's 55+ she may qualify for a tax subsidized senior apartment but again, there are waiting lists. But it's worth getting on the waiting lists because rents can be as low as $350 (Houston prices) and that's for newer complexes. The rent is on a sliding scale based on income.

[OrwellwasRight]

37. Again, thanks very much. That is helpful to know.

I'll see what help she is willing to accept besides cash. I don't have high hopes but I'd rather try than not.

[Iggo]

26. Not sure I understand.

You knew it was coming, and you knew what your answer would be.

The problem is exactly what?

[OrwellwasRight]

28. Well, I feel bad.

Because will this make things worse for Relative #2? Will she start trying to bleed her kids? Will she become homeless? Will she start stealing from Relative #2? I see a lot of downsides, but I'm still not feeling being an enabler.

[hunter]

38. Ah, they're just paying her off so she doesn't show up homeless on their doorstep.

It's a lot more awkward to turn away a homeless family member then it is to say NO to "lending" them money.

I'll be brutal: In situations like this, when families say it's about the money, it's not about the money.

My brother's wife has a family like that. It's always about the control. Even when they're dead their money comes with strings attached.

Our family tradition is that if a relative shows up homeless on the doorstep we let them in. My childhood home was a zoo, and it wasn't just family. Two of my more successful siblings fled when they were sixteen, maybe just because they wanted a room of their own and a bathroom they didn't have to stand in line for.

[OrwellwasRight]

39. I'd rather she sleep on my couch than give

her cash to support her out of control spending. Of course, I live 3,000 miles away so it isn't likely I'd be the one to bear the brunt of the homelessness.

I hear you about people not wanting strings attached to their family's charity, but I guess I am not a free market ideologue when it comes to giving cash money to a relative who has demonstrated nothing but poor judgment for 15 straight years. I'd want to pay off the creditor directly.

[hunter]

41. Put aside money to buy her a bus ticket if it ever comes to that.

A person will see the world through new eyes after they've traveled across the country by bus.

My own bouts of homelessness were never about family who'd rejected me. It was always about me not wanting to add my crazy to theirs. Our family's crazy is synergistic.

My grandma was a bag lady who happened to have a fairly good pension and a house that was fully paid for because she'd always been able to keep it together for work. But when she retired she went completely off the rails and had to be removed from her house as a danger to herself and others. No assisted living place would tolerate her for long, not even those who claimed they could handle difficult people, so she'd end up with my parents.

The worst Thanksgiving weekend of my life started with her. I was home from college and my grandma was being her usual terror; she could say the meanest damned things and her stories were always disturbing, except when she talked about dogs and horses she'd known. She liked animals, people not so much. I couldn't stand it, especially our family tradition of pretending she was sane, so I fled right after dinner.

Saturday I was back in my apartment, my roommates still away, when the Jehovah Witnesses knocked on my door and started treating me like I was some lost soul who needed to be rescued. I didn't have myself together enough to send them away. I just stood there, wtf?, and they kept on talking. Mind you, my mom had been a Jehovah's Witness until the day two big bouncer guys prevented her from entering their Kingdom Hall. After that we were Quakers. (My mom had issues with the Catholic church as well. The Quakers could politely listen to whatever my mom had to say and then move on...)

So I'd been feeling bad already, and now I was feeling even worse. Later my girlfriend's girlfriend showed up at the door drunk and stoned out of her mind, weeping, and vomiting on herself. I got her to the bath to clean up, and she seemed a little better. But then she decided to kill herself. She was unsuccessful, but only because she was too intoxicated. She was also the first naked woman I'd ever touched, my girlfriend and I being good chaste Orthodox Christian people, but mostly because my girlfriend was using me to prove to her family and herself that she wasn't a lesbian, and her parents rewarded her for that. Every dollar she got from her family had strings attached, explicit and implicit.

Here's the kicker. While I was in college my grandma would usually send me "money for food" every month. Her measure of food value was McDonald's Big Macs. She loved McDonald's. It was enough money to eat lunch at McDonald's every day, had I wanted to. I was mostly vegetarian then, as I am now, a rice and beans kind of guy, so it was enough to buy all my food with some left over. That's another reason I graduated without loans. I was the first kid in her family to go to a four year college and that made her happy. (Oddly, she and my grandpa had demanded my mom learn practical skills. Maybe it was because I was a guy.) I'd say thank you to my grandma, maybe tell a story or two (about animals, if possible), and there it was, no obligations, not anybody keeping score.

[OrwellwasRight]

42. Wow.

Thanks for sharing your story. It makes my own family's brand of crazy seen not as surprising, just another version of "everybody goes through it."

I also like your bus ticket idea. I think that might make a difference. She is so used to living above her means on the handouts of generous but gullible relatives that somehow, somewhere she needs a dose of "you made the bed, you lie in it." I used to ride the Greyhound bus quite a bit in college, and boy did it give you a dose of the real world, lots of people who had just been released from the state pen, using their $50 and a bus ticket to get back home, lots of migrant workers, and a few college students scattered here and there.

[Orrex]

40. Blow a loud raspberry and stumble away laughing.

She has minimal income, but she refuses to live within that income.

Well too fucking bad for her, then. I don't want to live within my income, either, but that doesn't mean I get to leech off of relatives every time I need a cash infusion.

This person has already received two handouts larger than most non-Trump people will receive in their lifetimes. If she can't get her shit together, then it's not your job to do it for her.

[OrwellwasRight]

43. Thank you!

That's exactly how I feel about her most of the time. I can't get around where all that money went. It's a whole house in certain parts of the country!