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trof

(54,256 posts)
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:50 PM Mar 2012

First test flight on Boeing 727.

Great video:



The 727 was the workhorse of the 60s, 70s, 80s, and even into the 90s.
The ultimate 'people carrier'.
I flew them for a few years.

What I liked:
The rear 'airstairs'.
You didn't need the roll up stairs.
(We didn't always have jetways.)


The Auxiliary Power Unit (APU).
You were self sufficient for on ground A/C, electrical power, and starting engines.
A small on-board auxiliary jet engine provided that.
You weren't dependent on a plug-in ground power cart.

It could drop like a rock.
When you needed to.
When you popped the wing spoilers you were going DOWN!
Fast.
Sometimes that really came in handy.

It could stop on a dime and give you a nickel change.
See the video.
Full reverse thrust and max wheel brakes.
1800 feet?
Whoa.

What I didn't like:
Landing that sucker.
It was squirrely.
Never seemed to land the same way twice.
Every landing was a new adventure.
The models I flew had 'auto-spoilers'.
When the wheels sensed rotation (on touchdown) the wing spoilers automatically deployed.
It was almost impossible to 'grease one on', because the autospoilers killed your lift as soon as the wheels touched.



57 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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First test flight on Boeing 727. (Original Post) trof Mar 2012 OP
What is "grease one on?" Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #1
A really smooth landing. trof Mar 2012 #3
Yeah, they had to drag out the elevated platform for engine maintenance. trof Mar 2012 #6
Actually the #2 engine wasn't bad to work on IMO Populist_Prole Apr 2012 #31
Interesting story about the 'S' duct, the L-1011, and the DC-10. This may be a bit long... trof Apr 2012 #43
I've read some people in the industry say Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #44
I guess i'd agree. n/t trof Apr 2012 #45
Very plausible. Always thought that was a bizarre way of mounting the center engine Populist_Prole Apr 2012 #46
I can't believe how quickly they were getting the plane stopped even on a wet runway. pa28 Mar 2012 #2
A couple of well-detailed sim videos -- Love the worn, "survivor" look... Blue_Tires Mar 2012 #4
Boy, that takes me back. I was F/E on the 3 holer for a while. trof Apr 2012 #49
As I understand it the 727 wasn't initially manufactured with an APU. The Velveteen Ocelot Mar 2012 #5
Didn't know that. Thanks. trof Mar 2012 #7
I also meant to ask: Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #8
Never flew the DC-10 trof Apr 2012 #9
Do you miss the concept of a flight engineer? Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #11
I began at TWA as a flight engineer. trof Apr 2012 #13
The concept the FAA is promoting is the box flies the plane from start to finish Major Nikon Apr 2012 #19
I read Michael O'Leary was harping about the same thing Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #24
Progress. trof Apr 2012 #40
Progress for some, regression for others Major Nikon Apr 2012 #42
If it means anything, I'm very sorry about what happened with the Icahn mess Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #26
I'll say this for Carl Icahn (grudgingly) trof Apr 2012 #39
All anyone really needs to know about Frank is... av8rdave Apr 2012 #55
Having a flight engineer was great! av8rdave Apr 2012 #54
For those who haven't seen it: Original launch brochure Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #10
Worked on them earlier part in my career Populist_Prole Apr 2012 #12
Wow so the auto-spoilers deployed with wheel rotation rather than "weight on wheels"? cherokeeprogressive Apr 2012 #14
Not dangerous at all. It's very common on other commercial airliners as well Populist_Prole Apr 2012 #15
Weight on wheels for autospoilers can actually be pretty dangerous av8rdave Apr 2012 #56
The rear airstairs had little winglets on them after DB Cooper.... TheMightyFavog Apr 2012 #16
We called it the 'Cooper switch' or 'Cooper lock'. trof Apr 2012 #20
I did some back research into that story Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #23
One of her relatives KT2000 Apr 2012 #17
Yeah, the military has gotten a lot of extended life out of the older frames Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #21
I've refueled from KC-135 many times. My first time was from a KC-97. trof Apr 2012 #22
Too slow for jets? But it has such a low drag coefficient and frontal profile!! Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #25
That's impressive KT2000 Apr 2012 #28
Most frightening thing I've ever done.* trof Apr 2012 #29
Love this - thank you KT2000 Apr 2012 #32
That's very gratifying. Thank you. trof Apr 2012 #35
This is a great great post! Thank you for sharing it petronius Apr 2012 #33
Thank you. trof Apr 2012 #36
That's amazing! Talk about a hairy situation... Blue_Tires Apr 2012 #37
A good tanker driver really helped. trof Apr 2012 #41
I have a refueling story for you, though I wasn't involved except on the maintenance end of it... cherokeeprogressive Apr 2012 #47
Yeah, it happens. Here's my refueling/midair collision story: (Warning, another long one) trof Apr 2012 #48
Another good one! Thanks KT2000 Apr 2012 #53
It could have been a lot more exciting if Tex Johnston had been captain Major Nikon Apr 2012 #18
I haven't seen that video in many years av8rdave Apr 2012 #27
Oh yeah...memories. trof Apr 2012 #30
TWA had a CV 880 TheCentepedeShoes Apr 2012 #34
Ha! That coulda been me! trof Apr 2012 #38
Thanks for making me feel like I was riding along, trof. Ptah Apr 2012 #50
Thank you, Ptah. trof Apr 2012 #51
I've been told that the B-52 was like a fly-rod; flexible and fluid. Ptah Apr 2012 #52
During my 30 years as a mechanic BlueCollar Apr 2012 #57

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
1. What is "grease one on?"
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 07:57 PM
Mar 2012

I've read in other accounts that mechanics weren't too fond of any major service to the #2 engine (or any of the tri-jets, for that matter)...

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
31. Actually the #2 engine wasn't bad to work on IMO
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 08:04 PM
Apr 2012

Other than rare cases where you'd have to access the fan area in the "S" duct, it actually had more spacious and all-around access than the pylon mounted 1 & 3 engines.

trof

(54,256 posts)
43. Interesting story about the 'S' duct, the L-1011, and the DC-10. This may be a bit long...
Wed Apr 4, 2012, 05:39 PM
Apr 2012

Several years ago I was deadheading from JFK to CDG (Paris) in first class.
My seat-mate turned out to be a Boeing engineer.

Here's his story:
When Lockheed decided on the final plans for the L-1011 'Tri-Star', they decided not to reinvent the wheel. They went to Boeing and bought (for a pretty high price) their engineering drawings, airflow studies, etc. (I'm not an engineer) for the 727. The 'S' duct on the 1011 is basically a larger, somewhat modified version of the one on the 727.

About the same time Douglas was planning the DC-10.
The original plane was to be a wide body with just two engines.
However, they wanted to be competitive in the international market, and, at the time, the minimum requirement for extended over water flight (Atlantic and Pacific oceans) was 3 engines.
This was before ETOPS.
(Sorry, civilians.)


So the DC-10 would be a tri-motor too.
But they did it on the cheap.
Didn't want to buy existing 727 engineering info, and didn't want to spend the money to do their own studies.
So they basically just said "Eff it, stick the other engine up on the tail."
And that's what they did.
I always thought the DC-10 was a cobbled together POS, and many guys who flew it agree.
Some don't.
In any event, it wasn't around long.
Killed a few folks, too.


Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
44. I've read some people in the industry say
Wed Apr 4, 2012, 05:57 PM
Apr 2012

Douglas went in a weird management direction after the McDonnell merger, and it was nothing but a long slow decline after that...

pa28

(6,145 posts)
2. I can't believe how quickly they were getting the plane stopped even on a wet runway.
Thu Mar 29, 2012, 08:15 PM
Mar 2012

It also seemed really docile in a full stall. Amazing.

I've seen this aircraft being gradually restored at Paine Field and one day it will be flown again. Boeing actually delivered the prototype which is a little unusual from what I've heard. Here it is:



Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
4. A couple of well-detailed sim videos -- Love the worn, "survivor" look...
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 04:39 PM
Mar 2012
&feature=related



I've always had a soft spot for the three-holers; they always had the "look" of what a jet should be...When I was drawing jet doodles in first grade, it was always with three engines...

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,706 posts)
5. As I understand it the 727 wasn't initially manufactured with an APU.
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 04:53 PM
Mar 2012

The APU was soon added (installed in a wheel well instead of the tail, like most other aircraft, due to weight and CG considerations) to be sure ground power and engine start capability was always available.

trof

(54,256 posts)
7. Didn't know that. Thanks.
Fri Mar 30, 2012, 06:50 PM
Mar 2012

My favorite, all-time commercial aircraft was another tri-motor.
The Lockheed L-1011.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
8. I also meant to ask:
Mon Apr 2, 2012, 09:39 AM
Apr 2012

Did you ever fly the DC-10? Where does the 727-200 (I'm guessing that was your variant) rank on your list of favorites??

I'd like to think I flew on it once as a kid, but I didn't know much about frames and didn't pay attention...The funny thing is I've had a huge resurgence in my interest of all things aviation related...It was something I was into when I was a kid (this was back when all my classmates wanted to be pilots/astronauts, and about 75% of all the paper in my room was used to make airplanes), then for a long time I stopped caring, and now that I'm 35, its almost like I'm making up for lost time so I'm seeking out info wherever I can...

Flying used to be something I really looked forward to, instead of the frequent hassle it is today...I used to love stopovers if it meant seeing a new airport for the first time...When I was 15 I went to Birmingham to spend the summer with my cousins, and the 'best' direct itinerary went ORF-IAD-HSV-BHM, and I actually asked my dad if the airline could fit in another stop somewhere...

The dad of one of my best friends from childhood was a Piedmont captain (but he spent the bulk of his career with some other carrier, iirc) who flew everything everywhere...I never asked him a single question about his work, and although I'm burning to do so now, our families had kind of a falling out 20+ years ago and we went separate ways...

I lurk on airliners.net, and the 722 is remembered fondly -- The general consensus is that it was one of the last great "pilot's plane" that had good performance, agility and wasn't over-laden with automation...I miss the more diverse and distinct types of planes you'd see at an airport instead of the countless CRJ/737/717s I see today.

trof

(54,256 posts)
9. Never flew the DC-10
Mon Apr 2, 2012, 09:58 AM
Apr 2012

Except for the L-1011 and DC-9, TWA was mostly Boeing during my years there.
B-707, 727, and 747.
I flew all the Boeings, but the L-1011 was my favorite.
I guess the 727 would come third for me, after the 1011 and 747.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
11. Do you miss the concept of a flight engineer?
Mon Apr 2, 2012, 10:07 AM
Apr 2012

Last edited Mon Apr 2, 2012, 01:24 PM - Edit history (1)

Did you appreciate another set of eyes? Or did you think it non-essential, or that it could only add to confusion during a crisis? (maybe I already asked you this...)

and I swear; last question: Do you still fly recreationally?

trof

(54,256 posts)
13. I began at TWA as a flight engineer.
Mon Apr 2, 2012, 06:12 PM
Apr 2012

That's where you started back then.
It was a big change after 7 years as 'Captain' in a single seat fighter.

Until I quit flying in 1999, my crews always had a flight engineer.
I thought they were invaluable and depended on them.
Far from "adding confusion during a crisis" F/Es were a great help in emergency situations.
Among other things, the F/E could handle comm radios with ATC and company when pilot and co-pilot were dealing with flying the airplane during hairy stuff like engine fires and failures.
Yes, the extra set of eyes (and skills) was good to have.

I know that automated systems have replaced the F/E almost universally now.
But that doesn't put another set of eyes, ideas, expertise, and brains on the flight deck.

It's all a numbers and 'bottom line' game now.
Passenger safety and comfort used to be the number one concern.
Now it's a distant third, after more profit and less expense.

Believe me, if airlines could sell the concept of single engine, single pilot airliners, they would.
In fact, the progress we've made in remote controlled drones scares the hell out of me.
How long before your next flight has NO pilot?


Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
19. The concept the FAA is promoting is the box flies the plane from start to finish
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 05:10 AM
Apr 2012

RNAV departures are here to stay. The latest concept in RNP arrivals is the captain activates the approach at cruise altitude and doesn't touch the controls until it's time to taxi the plane to the gate. Instead of just special locations like Alaska, these will be the norm at all airports that serve air carriers. There won't be any more step downs or even speed restrictions and vectors for sequencing. Anyone who is not RNP equipped will be moved out of the way for those who are. First come, first served will be replaced by best equipped, first served. All the little guys will just have to suck it up. The airlines and the FAA are both on board which is all that seems to matter anymore. The FAA is even letting the airlines write all the RNP procedures.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
24. I read Michael O'Leary was harping about the same thing
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 09:47 AM
Apr 2012

but I just thought he was trying to whore for headlines

Major Nikon

(36,827 posts)
42. Progress for some, regression for others
Wed Apr 4, 2012, 04:13 PM
Apr 2012

Here's a flight I took last week:

http://flightaware.com/live/flight/HRF355

I haven't flown the Sasie arrival in a couple of years because I don't normally come from that direction. Every time I had flown it before they took me over the top of Dallas Love which gave me almost a straight shot to my home airport. Now they take me all the way around the metroplex just to stay out of the way of Love field and DFW which adds about 50 miles to my trip. I spoke to a controller buddy of mine and he says that is just how they do it now mostly because of the RNAV departures and the sensitivity to the airlines. Time was when controllers would spin an airliner out if they had to make space for a small guy. Those days are gone. My buddy tells me if an airliner gets delayed the least little bit, they call the DFW FAA chief directly and ask why. So there are no more transitions through the arrival/departure paths for the big airports. If you're going to a small airport, you get the scenic route.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
26. If it means anything, I'm very sorry about what happened with the Icahn mess
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 10:04 AM
Apr 2012

TWA (and Eastern, my childhood favorite) deserved better endings...

trof

(54,256 posts)
39. I'll say this for Carl Icahn (grudgingly)
Wed Apr 4, 2012, 11:15 AM
Apr 2012

Frank Lorenzo had all but done a signed deal with management to take over TWA. That would have been the end of us, then and there.

From wiki:
"Francisco Anthony "Frank" Lorenzo[1][2] (born May 19, 1940) is an American businessman and philanthropist. He is most famous for his leadership of Texas International Airlines and its successor holding company Texas Air Corporation between 1972 and 1990, through which he formed or acquired a number of major U.S. airlines including Continental Airlines, Eastern Air Lines, Frontier Airlines, New York Air and Peoplexpress Airlines.

As an airline manager, he gained a reputation of union busting, stemming from his leadership during the 1983 bankruptcy of Continental Airlines that enabled the company to void its union contracts, and during the strike and bankruptcy of Eastern Airlines that eventually led to its permanent shutdown in 1991.[3] Lorenzo’s history is contentious, both “despised by unions and admired by airline strategists."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Lorenzo

The pilots' union, figuring ANYTHING would be better than Lorenzo, actually made the pitch to Icahn. While slowly bleeding it dry, he at least kept TWA operating as its own entity for a few more (precious) years.

av8rdave

(10,573 posts)
55. All anyone really needs to know about Frank is...
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:20 AM
Apr 2012

It takes someone really special to get the courts to actually ban them from an industry for life.

av8rdave

(10,573 posts)
54. Having a flight engineer was great!
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:18 AM
Apr 2012

I spent a year as one, then a couple of years on crews with one. It was a great way to spread out the workload, and it was also nice in a social/work environment sense to have a third person there.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
12. Worked on them earlier part in my career
Mon Apr 2, 2012, 01:23 PM
Apr 2012

It is a beautiful looking work of art, I thought so then and think so now, but by todays standards it would be a major PIA to work on. I was younger and more limber then too though.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
14. Wow so the auto-spoilers deployed with wheel rotation rather than "weight on wheels"?
Mon Apr 2, 2012, 11:55 PM
Apr 2012

That seems dangerous to me.

Populist_Prole

(5,364 posts)
15. Not dangerous at all. It's very common on other commercial airliners as well
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 12:10 AM
Apr 2012

In many cases transducers keyed to the main wheels have to show a certain mimimum speed value in order for the spoilers to auto-deploy. 50 Knots is a common value.

av8rdave

(10,573 posts)
56. Weight on wheels for autospoilers can actually be pretty dangerous
Fri Apr 6, 2012, 11:25 AM
Apr 2012

In the event of a (hopefully rare) hard landing. If the landing is hard enough to cause a bounce, usually the safest course is to execute a go around - add power (lots) and abort the landing. You gain airspeed (which equals control) almost immediately, and deal with a stable machine in the air rather than an unstable one on the ground. But an attempted go-around with spoilers deployed could well be catastrophic. Especially considering that automatic activation of the spoilers on the ground deploys "ground spoilers," meaning additional spoilers deploy and/or all spoilers extend to a greater degree than in the air.

TheMightyFavog

(13,770 posts)
16. The rear airstairs had little winglets on them after DB Cooper....
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 12:58 AM
Apr 2012

The winglets prevented the airstair from being opened in flight.... Ingenious...

trof

(54,256 posts)
20. We called it the 'Cooper switch' or 'Cooper lock'.
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 09:28 AM
Apr 2012

The FAA called it the 'Cooper Vane'.

Air pressure caused by forward movement rotated the steel bolt to disable the stairs in flight.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
21. Yeah, the military has gotten a lot of extended life out of the older frames
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 09:38 AM
Apr 2012

Even the old DC-8s had a reputation for being way over-engineered, owing no doubt to the designers' experiences in building planes that could stay in flight even while taking a beating from enemy fire...

I could have sworn I saw a navy DC-8 over my house on a clear day last summer (the only way I know to recognize them is the "slits" in the nose) but wiki said they have all been retired, so maybe it was a 135

trof

(54,256 posts)
22. I've refueled from KC-135 many times. My first time was from a KC-97.
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 09:44 AM
Apr 2012

The original 4-motor prop version was too slow for jet fighters.
We'd have to drop flaps and gear to get slow enough, but that cut down on our maneuverability quite a bit.

Then the 97 was modified with the addition of 2 J-47 jet engines.
The first time I checked in with the pilot of the new mod I said "Looks like you got some new hardware hanging on your wings."
He replied "Come on in Bama One, we got 4 turnin' and two burnin'."

The KC-135 was a big improvement.

Blue_Tires

(55,445 posts)
25. Too slow for jets? But it has such a low drag coefficient and frontal profile!!
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 09:53 AM
Apr 2012

That thing might even lose a race to an ATR

KT2000

(20,581 posts)
28. That's impressive
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 01:22 PM
Apr 2012

because it sure looks like it takes excellent skill to refuel like that. Love watching how they do it. They seem so heavy when they are loaded - it's amazing.

My father was an engineer and he spent most of his time on the KC-97 and then the KC-135 (his favorite and early work was on the Yankee Clipper). In the 70s after he retired, an ex-co-worker came up to him at a gathering and said "Ed, can you blieve they're still flying those damn things?" If they only knew!

trof

(54,256 posts)
29. Most frightening thing I've ever done.*
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 07:35 PM
Apr 2012

*Disclaimer/caveat: I was never in combat. Never had anyone shooting at me.
But having said that...

In my day (1960s) air-to-air refueling was one of the most dangerous things you could do in an airplane.
More likely to get you killed than anything else I've ever done.

I recently learned that we were guinea pigs in aerial refueling.
Back in 1964, I accepted it as part of the normal mission expected of us.
Thought they'd been doing it for years.
A few months ago I found out that our ANG squadron was possibly the first guard unit to do this.
The flight lead who briefed me for my first refueling mission had only done it twice before.


The briefing went something like this:
"Watch your airspeed and closure rate. You don;t want to overrun the tanker.
(This was on the slow KC-97.)
The boomer (refueling boom operator) can fly the boom to a degree. But you have to plug into the boom with enough forward force to make contact and lock into the boom so you can get fuel.
As you take on fuel and get heavier, you will PROBABLY have to start to bleed down some flaps so you can avoid a stall.
(Let me see...right hand on the stick, left hand on the throttle, and the OTHER hand on the flap handle? )
DO NOT get a kink in the refueling hose. If you do it may start to windmill and rip off your refueling probe.
(The RF-84/F I was flying had a 6 foot refueling probe on the left wing root. When closing up on the tanker you had to keep one eye on the tanker and the other eye on the refueling boom and the other eye ? on the probe. )

OK, let's launch."
Hoo Boy.

We hit our KC-97 tanker at 10,000' over Chattanooga. I think it was the TN ANG.
I was number 3 in a 4 ship formation.
I watched i and 2 hook up and get gas.
Then it was my turn.
My adrenalin level was off scale and my sphincter was biting washers out of the seat cushion.

I eased in behind the tanker and made my first try at the basket.
I hit it, but not with enough force to lock into it.
I backed off and made another pass with a 'l-i-t-t-l-e' more closure rate and BAM! LOCKED ON!
WOOHOO!

As I took on fuel and got heavier, my angle of attack began to increase.
I was approaching stall speed for the extra weight.
In a seriously split second I took my hand off the throttle long enough to put flaps at 5 degrees.
Whew.
A few minutes later I went to 10 degrees.
I was constantly jockeying the throttle to maintain position and forward pressure to avoid a disconnect.
Finally I had my fuel load and backed off on the throttle for the disconnect.

I WAS SO GODDAM PROUD!
I have no idea how many times I did this, but my proudest aviation claim is that I ALWAYS hooked up.
A lot of guys can't say that.


During subsequent refuelings I gained knowledge and expertise.
I didn't dread them anymore.
Piece of cake.

But still, after I was an 'old hand' at it, night refuelings in thunderstorms were the WORST.

Oh yeah...the flight lead who briefed me on my first refueling flight?
Who warned me about getting a kink in the hose and windmilling?
I was up with him a couple of years later.
And he got a kink in the hose.
And the hose windmilled.
And it ripped off his refueling probe.

I always wondered where that hunk of metal came down.
He lost all the fuel in his left wing, but made it back to base.

And this l-o-n-g reply is probably more than you ever wanted to know about aerial refueling.







KT2000

(20,581 posts)
32. Love this - thank you
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 08:30 PM
Apr 2012

in fact I am going to send it to my brother if that's OK. Our father rarely talked about his work with us so we have had fun learning now what he really did and this whole refueling in flight I find just amazing. How on earth it can actually work - make the connection - takes real skill.
I watched a couple training clips on youtube but your description is the best. Hope you write for publications because you are able to convey the real feelings of the exercise - I mean I got anxiety reading it!!
Thank you!

trof

(54,256 posts)
35. That's very gratifying. Thank you.
Wed Apr 4, 2012, 09:21 AM
Apr 2012

I tried to put you in the cockpit with me without using too much jargon.

trof

(54,256 posts)
41. A good tanker driver really helped.
Wed Apr 4, 2012, 11:33 AM
Apr 2012

And most of the ones I refueled from were excellent.

The FAA blocked out a restricted refueling area and you had to stay within it.
It was a big racetrack pattern.
I forget the dimensions. Maybe 10 or so miles on each side.
Of course this meant you couldn't just fly straight and level for the entire refueling.
At some point you'd reach the end of that straight side of the track and have to TURN AND STAY HOOKED UP all at the same time.

The tanker pilot and crew were responsible for navigation and keeping you all within the designated area. And it really helped when he made nice, s-l-o-w, steady banking turns.
If we were in clouds and I couldn't see the horizon beyond the tanker,If the guy was really good, it would be hard for me to tell if I was straight and level on in a bank, except you had to add a bit of power in a turn to maintain altitude.

 

cherokeeprogressive

(24,853 posts)
47. I have a refueling story for you, though I wasn't involved except on the maintenance end of it...
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 01:40 AM
Apr 2012

I was attached to VA-128, the Navy's west coast A-6 training command. We were on a training detachment to NAF El Centro in the So. Cal. desert in order to teach nugget Aviators and B/Ns to drop live weapons.

One morning a group of us walked into the hangar from the barracks and saw a KA-6D sitting in the middle of the hangar, sans rudder and the port "stabilator". The bird had a lot of sheet metal damage as well. Next to it was an A-6E with no radome.

Seems a nugget pilot was practicing night refueling and misjudged his rate of closure with the KA-6D and ran right into the back of it, knocking the control surfaces off. The "horn" the stabilator fit over was bent, and the rudder actuator had the end of the shaft broken off. Six of us stayed behind after the det for two weeks fixing the damage so the KA-6D could fly home.

The KA-6D pilot flew the plane back the NAF El Centro using differential thrust and used roll and pitch input to take the place of the yaw provided by the rudder (his own words). The KA-6D pilot wound up going to the Blue Angels a couple of years later, and the nugget... well he went home the morning after the incident and last we heard was flying C-9s.

The funniest part of it all was the fact an H-3 Sea King found the stabilator floating in the Salton Sea covered with seagulls.

trof

(54,256 posts)
48. Yeah, it happens. Here's my refueling/midair collision story: (Warning, another long one)
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 06:58 PM
Apr 2012

I'll try and keep it understandable for the 'civilians'.


It was a four-ship formation in finger-tip configuration.
....1
..2...3
..........4
Lead is '1', '2' flies his left wing, I'm '3' on lead's right wing, and '4' is on my right wing.
Each plane is stacked slightly below and slightly aft of the one he's flying on.
This is kinda tricky, but we're divided into two 'elements'.
'1' and '2' are the first element, and '3'(me) and '4' are the second element.
'2' and '3' should stick with/'fly on' '1', and '4' should consider me as his lead and stick with me, regardless of what lead does.
If I should leave the formation for any reason, '4' is expected to stay with me.
Clear?
OK.

My friend Jack is flying lead. He's one of the best pilots in the squadron. Flew P-47s and P-51s in WWII. An Ace. Really good 'stick' and I trust him implicitly.
When you're flying in tight formation in other than the lead position, the ONLY thing you have your eyes glued on is lead. And you do whatever is necessary to stay with him. You have no time to look anywhere but at his aircraft. If your lead flies into a mountain side, you'll hit a nano-second after he does. That's just how it is.
Several years ago lead in a four-ship USAF Thunderbirds team flew into a mountain during a practice flight. So did 2, 3, and 4.


The guys in the '2' and '4' position are new to our guard squadron. Not newbies just out of pilot training, but they had just joined our unit. Although they'd both done air refueling when in the active duty Air Force, it was their first refueling mission with us.

We did formation take-offs in elements of two, and joined up in our four-ship as indicated above and sailed off for our designated tanker track. No problem.

Jack found the tanker and we began to close.
Enroute we were cruising at 350 knots, but when you get within a few miles of the tanker you need to slow down to his speed of about 250 knots. All four of us, in formation, first have to fly in formation with the tanker. Once we're established there, we can slide in behind the trailing boom, one at a time, and start taking on fuel.

Note: ANYTIME lead makes a change in aircraft configuration (like putting down flaps, or popping speed brakes), he ALWAYS gives the rest of the flight notice so they can stay with him. On the radio he'll say something like "Bama Flight...speed brakes...NOW!
And everyone deploys speed brakes at the same time and are able to stay in formation.
That's the way it's supposed to work.

For some reason, Jack forgot.
For some reason we came SCREAMING in on the tanker.
WAY faster than they were.
Remember, I'm not looking ahead, or at the tanker, or anywhere but at Jack.
My eyes are RIVETED on him.
And I see his speed brakes (or 'boards') come out.
(These are panels on either side of the aft fuselage about 2' X2' that deploy about 80 degrees out from the fuselage and slow the aircraft down DRAMATICALLY.)

Jack gave no preliminary warning, but AS his boards were coming out I heard a rapid "speedbrakesNOW!"
Back then I was good enough that I could have stayed on Jack's wing no matter what he did.
I ain't braggin', but I was pretty damn good at close formation.
As soon as I saw his boards start to deploy I could have popped mine and stayed with him.
The switch was right there under my left thumb on the throttle.

In the nano-second that followed my decision process was as follows:
"Whatthefuck? Goddamit Jack! I could stay with you but what about the guy on MY wing?
I don't know how good he is. Could he stay with me if I stayed with Jack? I dunno. I'm leaving the formation."
I didn't pop my boards, and I didn't overrun Jack, I just began a slow pull up, slightly to the right and away from Jack while I called on the radio "3 is leaving formation." I expected '4' to stay with me, as he should have.

Well, he didn't.
I have no idea what exactly happened next, didn't see it.
But '2' and '4' somehow wound up canopy to canopy.
Busted both canopies and then the 'Mayday-Mayday-Mayday' * calls started.

Needless to say, we aborted the refueling mission.
I eventually found my wingman and established radio contact with him.
Sort of. The noise without a canopy is daunting.
We were near McGhee-Tyson Air National Guard Base in Knoxville and I alerted them to the emergency and flew his wing to get him on the ground there.
We sent our T-Bird 2-seater trainer up there to fetch him home that afternoon.
I returned to my base at Birmingham.

'2' somehow made in back to Birmingham alone, sans canopy.
Jack evidently never saw his wingman again and also returned to Birmingham.

After I'd parked and shut down, I saw Jack in the parachute shack where we kept our flight gear.
"Man?...What the fuck?"
He just shook his head.
"I dunno, I just don't know."


* Mayday is the international radio call for an inflight emergency. From the French M'aidez: 'help me'.








KT2000

(20,581 posts)
53. Another good one! Thanks
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 09:01 PM
Apr 2012

Really - most people are really interested in flying but have no idea how things really work or what happens. I've looked at some websites but they are pilots talking with each other so it is hard to understand, so this is much appreciated!

av8rdave

(10,573 posts)
27. I haven't seen that video in many years
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 11:56 AM
Apr 2012

I was fortunate enough to get a year in each seat of that airplane. I loved it! It was also my first Captain assignment - in 1998. We didn't have them too much longer after that, though.

We also had the autospoilers. The best landings were always on flights where those were on MCO (didn't work). We were legal to fly without them working, but you took quite a weight penalty for it, as I recall.

"Drop like a rock" is putting it mildly. I can remember a couple of flights with medical emergencies. We hit the outer marker at 300 knots, and were on speed and glideslope at 1000 AGL. That thing could slow like you hit a wall, and fall out of the sky like a bank safe if you needed it to.

As a new hire flight engineer, I flew with one somewhat infamous Captain that waited until the last possible second to start the last engine before takeoff. I felt like I really accomplished something if I could get the APU shut down before rotation.

I also had some not so fond memories of having to go back and pull up carpeting and look down that goofy periscope thing at the main gear when the cockpit gear lights malfunctioned.

Ah, memories...

trof

(54,256 posts)
30. Oh yeah...memories.
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 07:48 PM
Apr 2012

My first TWA assignment was the CV-880.
I was a brand new F/E.

I remember one captain on a short leg (don't remember from where to where...Columbus to Dayton?) would pull power to Idle at top of climb and land at destination without ever touching the throttles again.
He needed some special cooperation from ATC, but they knew him and what he was trying to do.

Them was the days.

TheCentepedeShoes

(3,522 posts)
34. TWA had a CV 880
Tue Apr 3, 2012, 09:14 PM
Apr 2012

evening flight from Amarillo to LA back in the 60's
Get there almost before you left with the time change

Ptah

(33,030 posts)
50. Thanks for making me feel like I was riding along, trof.
Thu Apr 5, 2012, 07:11 PM
Apr 2012

The test flights that were done in Great Falls sure took me back to my
childhood on the prairie of my childhood in Montana.
The winds could be brutal.
Thanks for the whole thread!

Ptah, USAF, 1970-1974

BlueCollar

(3,859 posts)
57. During my 30 years as a mechanic
Sun Apr 8, 2012, 07:31 AM
Apr 2012

I have had the opportunity to work on dozens of aircraft models and I have to say that the 727 was my favorite.

I liked the ruggedness of the airframe and the simplicity of the systems (hydraulics, pneumatics and flight controls etc.)

Airframe was built to take a beating and usually did...our motto..."You bend them...we mend them."

Only job I didn't really enjoy was lacing in the center fuel tank bladders

I never did get to go on a post-maintenance check flight...but that might have been fun.


As for speed....wow...flat out the 727 was amazing.

Thanks for the memories.

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