Without observers, does the universe actually exist?

[Duer 157099]

In the same way that a tree falling in the forest doesn't make a sound if there is nobody to hear it, does the same apply to all physical matter?

Since perception of the external world actually all happens inside of our brains, what if we, the observers (and I mean all sentient life) were not present, would the universe still exist, and in what form?

Or is this a stupid thing to think about?

[Chan790]

1. I'm with Hume and Baudrillaud.

The universe ceases to exist absent observation.

It's an elegant solution to Schrodinger's cat too.

[arcane1]

2. Yep, it sure does

In the same way that the proverbial tree, and the compressed waves of air, still exist.

Without the universe, there would be no atoms to make our brains with

[Duer 157099]

3. I'm not sure I can agree with that

compressed waves of air are not the same as sound. Sound is what happens after those waves of air are interpreted by specific interpretating devices (ear and brain).

And as for the atoms that make up our brain, I think that consciousness is not dependent upon the brain but the other way around. In fact, this sort of proves it to me, that materialism is wrong.

[Ptah]

5. Wikipedia has a broader definition of sound.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sound

Sound is a mechanical wave that is an oscillation of pressure transmitted through a solid, liquid, or gas,
composed of frequencies within the range of hearing and of a level sufficiently strong to be heard,
or the sensation stimulated in organs of hearing by such vibrations.

[arcane1]

7. That's my point: sounds is our barin's interpretation of the air waves

but the air waves exist because of the tree disturbing them, and don't rely on an observer to be there. The air would still make waves if a deaf person were present, for example.

[Duer 157099]

9. Well, how do you know the air waves still exist?

The only way you can know is if they are detected, somehow. Now I'm not even talking about sound.

This all goes back to The Observer Effect in physics. That observation influences matter. So the question becomes: if no observation, no matter?

[arcane1]

20. The observer effect involves observing subatomic particles that can't be seein directly

One must deliberately interact with it, and observe the effects, to gain information from it. I can see the apartment across the street because light is bouncing off of it and into my eyes; I'm a passive observer, having no effect on it, and the building will still exist when I close the blinds.

To believe otherwise seem to me to be saying that nothing exists except what I can see in front of me, and it vanishes when I close my eyes. I have no reason to believe that's the case

[MiddleFingerMom]

4. Just don't put the universe on ignore.

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[HopeHoops]

6. I'd be more concerned with God accidentally hitting CTRL-ALT-DEL.

[arcane1]

8. "Are you sure you want to delete 'Universe.exe?'"

[HopeHoops]

16. What the fuck. Afte 4 billion Sclitz tallboys, that sounds about right.

[Duer 157099]

12. Maybe we can trick him into it

Send him some sort of email scam or something where eventually he just says "screw it" and does a hard reboot.

I think that would be a good thing.

[HopeHoops]

17. Yeah, but he has to wire $10,000 to an address in Nigeria first.

[Duer 157099]

10. If only I knew how!

Seriously. Well, all of it but you, that is.

[cliffordu]

19. rofl......

[Motown_Johnny]

11. A tree falling in the forest sends out vibrations that would be interpreted

as sound if there were someone there to hear it.

Besides the fact that you dismiss all ears that are not human (if there is nothing there to hear it then that forest is in real trouble) the fact remains that those vibrations are not dependent on an "observer".

Yes, the universe existed before there were observers and it will continue to exist after all observers are gone. If you want to try to claim that God existed prior to the creation of the universe and therefore there has always been an observer then your question answers itself.


Not stupid to think about.

[Duer 157099]

13. I didn't mean to dismiss all ears

In fact, I meant to include *all* forms of detection/interpretation, since some people can "hear" vibrations through their bones, if they've trained their brains to interpret the vibrations.

But the vibrations themselves are not sound, are they? Sound is something that happens when vibrations are interpreted.

I cannot fathom how the unverse could have existed before observers. Everything I know about physics seems to suggest otherwise.

[Motown_Johnny]

15. Unless you want to argue "God was watching"

Then the universe must have existed prior to observers existence simply because the observers can not come into existence without a universe in which to evolve. The universe doesn't need us. Never did and never will.



The sound thing depends on your definition of the word.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/sound?s=t

^snip^

sound1 ? ?[sound] Show IPA
noun

1. the sensation produced by stimulation of the organs of hearing by vibrations transmitted through the air or other medium.

2. mechanical vibrations transmitted through an elastic medium, traveling in air at a speed of approximately 1087 feet (331 meters) per second at sea level.




Definition #1 answers your question as a "no" because it is the sensation produced by stimulation of the organs. Therefore there must be someone/something there with those organs able to experience those sensations.

Definition #2 answers your question as a "yes" because it is just the vibrations through a medium (such as air). No Experience Necessary, so to speak.

[JitterbugPerfume]

14. The Higgs Boson , also known as The GOD Particle

has no mass . If there is no one too observe, does Higgs just sit and not spin? Was everything created out of nothing? Nothing from nothing leaves nothing a wise Rock and Roller once said.

[pokerfan]

18. There's a lot of woo-woo pseudoscience in this field

If you subscribe to the Copenhagen interpretation, an observer (not necessarily a sentient being) is required for wave-function collapse. If you subscribe to the Many Worlds Hypothesis, then all possible universes exist with new ones being created constantly. Of course Many Worlds implies quantum (practical) immortality/suicide; there's really only one way to prove that hypothesis and that is to become the cat. As in Schrödinger's cat...

http://io9.com/5891740/quantum-suicide-how-to-prove-the-multiverse-exists-in-the-most-violent-way-possible

This is the sort of crap that keeps me up at night.

[Warren DeMontague]

21. I'll tell you

When I'm dead.

[BrendaBrick]

22. I'll tell you

when my own ego ceases to exists and (eventually) blends with anything and everything else in the process - then the *left-overs* (call it what you will..) will eventually prevail and merge with *all of that* as just the natural default