Friend of mine trying to date, working out horribly for him. Won't address other issues.

[Locut0s]

Last edited Fri Jul 19, 2013, 12:36 AM - Edit history (2)

So I have a friend who has really bad BDD, Body Dismorphic Disorder. For those who don't know this is an emotional condition in which one perceives their own body image incorrectly. In this case his main problem is with his face. He claims to see thousands of awful problems with his face, lines, scars, zits, pimples, spider veins etc... The guy couldn't have a smoother face and is actually quite handsome. Despite this he keeps a notebook of all his facial problems and even keeps track of the number of hairs he looses and the like. I keep trying to convince him that he needs to get help but he refuses to accept that he has an emotional problem and insists he's just ugly or cursed.

Anyway he's the same age as me, 31, and like me lives at home with his parents still. I feel I at least have insight into my own emotional problems and feel that I must fix them. To him his issues are all external. My personal feeling is that his family environment is toxic to him and is a large part of the problem. His mother is odd and his whole family dynamic is very strange. He even told me of some violent incidents involving him and his sister or other family members involving a knife in which he got a minor criminal record, he didn't hurt anyone, but apparently things got out of hand somehow. Anyway he brushes things like that off as if they were nothing. To me they scream of family issues, but I digress.

One of the big things right now is that he wants to get a GF, have a relationship, have sex etc.. But IMO he's no where near in the right place to be dating. He's gone on quite a few online dates but always gets rejected. This is of course hurting his feelings and to him it's just a confirmation that he's ugly. Again I keep telling him it's not about his looks but about his behaviour and other issues that he needs to get help for. I'm obviously not on these dates with him so maybe I'm blowing things out of proportion but I don't think he even knows how to act properly. He tells me about horrible gaffs like talking about his other dates while on a date, comparing the girl to others in front of them, etc etc... He even says he needs to try to get a little intimate with these girls otherwise the dates won't go anywhere. But you don't just start touching people on a date, it has to happen naturally or else people are going to freak out. That's the main thing, I don't think he knows how to be natural about any of this. To him it's a list of scripted events that he has to work out. I keep telling him that he has to make FRIENDS with a girl, it's not about some robotic list of events you have to perform. You have to share common interests and you genuinely have to be interested in each other. But he always has some overly analytical excuse for me. I honestly worry that if he doesn't address these emotional issue or at least comes to the conclusion that they are emotional issues, that something will happen to him. He's talked about suicide but I don't think he will do that. I guess I worry more he will end up hurting someone or himself, even if it's not suicide.

I don't know what to say to him. I try to be supportive but my emphasis is that he needs to get help. I can understand some of his issues, but I have difficulty understanding how he can have zero insight into these issues, the guy is pretty smart about everything else.

Edited for spelling: God dam my spelling is the shits

UPDATE: Well I finally told him that I can't listen to his problems any more. I told him that if he wants to talk to me about anything else, games, movies, his job, his day, interests, friend stuff I'm always here. But I told him it's not fair to me to call me every 2nd day to talk about his problems over and over and over again and not listen to my advise. I've told him 1000x to seek help but he won't listen, he's using me as his talk therapist. I said I can't do that anymore as it's not good for me. I told him it wasn't an easy choice. I said that if he want's to talk about these issues it has to be with a therapist and I won't be there any more to listen to this stuff.

[Locut0s]

1. And no this isn't myself :P

[CaliforniaPeggy]

2. He needs to get into the hands of a very strong, competent therapist.

If he does that (a long shot, I know) there's a chance he might see what the problems are. And that's the first step towards recovery...

[Chan790]

3. Also, and this will be unpopular advice, a dating coach.

Not one of those charlatans or scammers that say "I can teach you how to get any woman" and teach manipulation-techniques that don't work...someone who can address his social-skills and lack-of-meaningful-experience deficits. It actually sounds like the person in the OP needs to be taught how to date; they're not going to get there without active coaching and low-risk low-pressure critiqued role-play.

Better still if they were the same person as the problems are inexorably linked.

[Locut0s]

5. I suppose that could help. Though I think that would help someone like myself more...

Not to over inflate myself and diss him but I think my own issues are more tractable and stem more from a lack of experience. I know the steps I need to take. He has zero insight into his own issues and I think he needs more than just experience coaching. I seriously think he has some bad emotional scars that he doesn't want to admit to having.

[Locut0s]

4. I agree. It's sad and frustrating...

He contacts me on a daily basis with his problems and I try to be as supportive as possible but my advise to get help falls on death ears. I guess I now know how others feel when they offer advise to me that I don't follow. But at least with me I know the actual issues at stake.

I suppose beyond being supportive one can do nothing in these circumstances, I know one can't force one to get help, that only leads to worse outcomes.

Even sadder is how unlikely he would end up in the hands of said competent strong therapist, even if he were actively searching himself. Really good therapists are few and far between.

He told me that a long time back his parents made him see a psychiatrist but that that never went anywhere. He never took the medications long enough for them to take effect and stopped them cause of side effects. He says he doesn't believe in western based therapy and medication (he's Chinese). Interestingly this is the only thing about him that's very Chinese, he's lived here since he was about 10. Again this is another of those over analytical rationalizations he uses to not think about something. I realize since I'm pretty good at this myself.

[Locut0s]

11. The more I talk with him the less I think this will happen :(

He tries to contact me every day with his problems and I try my best to lend an ear but he's always unwilling to agree that he needs emotional help. Frankly I find his robotic way of talking about women rather disturbing. I don't have any experience with women either even I know this isn't how you deal with the issue. He says he wants a relationship, even a family. But he doesn't seem to understand what any of this means on an emotional level. It's as if these are objects that he has somehow had drilled into his head as things that absolutely must be attained, but he can't explain in detail what they mean emotionally. He talks about girls like they are objects, not necessarily sexual objects (that too a little) but objects that he needs to obtain to reach a goal. The way someone might talk about obtaining a must have job promotion. But he has no insight into this aspect of himself. When I ask questions of him like what such and such would mean to the girl he wants, what it would mean emotionally to her he doesn't even seem to understand what I'm talking about. As I said below it's schizophrenic seeming, but I don't see that aspect of him as much elsewhere.

[LadyHawkAZ]

6. Have you tried looking into support groups in your area?

Not necessarily just for the BDD issues, but general peer support groups for mental health even. If he won't seek professional help then that might be a good place to start. You might even offer to go with him for a session if he's uncomfortable going by himself.

[Locut0s]

7. I could try that. Thanks..

I'll look into it and see what happens. However I think I know the answer before I even try, which won't stop me. He's 100% adamant that the fix isn't emotional. I could be way off the mark, I'm no psychiatrist, but I think there's something about himself that he's desperately trying not to face. I've tried playing the what if game with him.

Just pretend for a second that your problems ARE mostly emotional. Wouldn't you like it if you could solve most of them then? But he tells me that the only thing that would happen is that the counselling and medication would at best help him to cope with the fact that he's ugly, it wouldn't change the physical truth of the fact. And that he says he's not interested in.

[LadyHawkAZ]

8. From what little you've said, and without knowing the guy.

it does sound like his body image issues have their root somewhere else. If it came down to it, maybe invite him along to a support group as your moral support, if he'd buy that, and see if it takes?

[Locut0s]

9. Yeah he just laughs at the idea, either one...

I tried. Those area's are just no go zones for him. Or he comes up with what seem to him to be some hyper rational reasons why attending such events would do no good. He's still trying to date online and keeps contacting me about his failures and how they reflect badly on him, and I keep telling him he needs to get help for these other issues. His robotic way of going about these things and the way he talks about others is somewhat disturbing to me. He doesn't seem to notice it but even someone like me with 0 experience knows that you don't talk about dates in terms of "needing to get intimate" or "introduce physical touching", or "I'm looking for a fertile woman" etc... These are robotic and unusual ways to look at things. And most certainly I wouldn't bring up some of the things he does on dates such as his other issues, living with his parents and the like. And he wonders why he gets few if any replies. He also looks at it all as an ends to a means. He will deny it and say that he is looking for a two way relationship but truthfully I'm not convinced he knows what that means. All he talks about are benefits and solutions for himself. He doesn't talk about getting a GF or wife as something joyful or happy, more like it's a chore that needs to be done to fill a hole in himself. He talks about the physical attributes of girls and never the emotional aspects. He laments how others can get hot girls and he can't. He gets mad that other "uglier guys" have hotter girls. He even said he get's jealous when meeting a girl at the mall at the other hot couples walking around. And yet his whole problem is that he thinks of himself as very ugly. If I didn't know better I'd say he's schizophrenic, unable to understand how human emotions work. But when I meet him in person or talk over the phone and the topic is about movies, or games and the like I don't see this side. Again I think his family up bringing has a lot to do with his issues, but this is another one of those no go zones, he just brushes it off and changes the topic. If he wasn't trying to contact me on a daily basis I wouldn't be as concerned about it as I am.

[raccoon]

10. Could you describe a futile woman? nt

[Locut0s]

12. One that there is no point in pursuing?...

yeah my spelling is horrible due to dyslexia. Sorry, thanks for pointing that out, fixed. I'm sure there are others.

I mean fertile.

[noamnety]

13. Your description sounds a little like aspergers

Do you think that might be an underlying cause?

[Locut0s]

16. Interesting posibility...

Though I think autism spectrum might be more likely as he doesn't have the highly focused intelligence of most aspergers. He would say he is just stupid, which is not at all the case, but he isn't highly focuses like most aspergers. However autism is something I hadn't really thought of before and that might fit now that I think about it. He would reject the idea out of hand probably but maybe it's something for him to think about. Thanks.

[HipChick]

14. What about trying social groups like meetups

This will help build social skills

[Locut0s]

15. He tried that exact route...

however he was only interested in trying to get a GF or relationship out of it and none of the social skills building aspects of it. I told him that he has to build up his social skills but he says that's just not the type of person he is. In his mind there are only 2 types of people in the world. One is the player who goes out partying and socializing all night long "on the prowl for pussy" so to speak. And the other is what he envisions himself to be which is low life useless socially inept trash. There is no middle ground and there is no use in even thinking about a middle ground. He isn't even interested in pursuing improving his social skills for his own happiness. Because of his body dismorphic disorder he is very uncomfortable and neurotic in public. He absolutely hates going out doors because he feels that the sun and the wind and all manner of other things are damaging his face, giving him scars and leaving permanent marks. Again no one can see anything on his face, his face is actually smoother than the average persons. And trying to reason with him on the subject of how the wind of all things could damage his face is like talking to a wall, which is unusual cause he likes to think of himself as a very rational person. So this removes any activity outdoors. And again he sees all of these as simply a means to try to get a GF and not to improve his situation with himself which he sees as pointless and hopeless. I've talked to him about these very issues and his opinions are exactly this, that socializing is basically impossible for him (and he sees no point in doing so unless he could somehow magically morph into the player type he wants to be).

[Chan790]

17. Oh sweet Jesus.

He's that guy. I'm sorry...he's fucked. He's going to die a virgin.

(No. Not really. Well...perhaps. He is going to drive you nuts though. That's a dead-certainty.)

Have you tried explaining that there is a driving biological imperative to be on the prowl?

Also, that women are not interested in guys that view them as a life-objective; assume they have no feelings; don't care what their interests are; have no interests of their own; don't really seem to have any real preferences as to who they date, marry or sleep with; don't really seem to want to have fun, and on and on and on and on? Basically, does he understand he's not actually offering a very-compelling personality that any woman would want to date? Sure maybe he doesn't want to do these things...but he does not really have a choice. He's not going to get a girlfriend until he stops viewing it as checklist of to-do tasks in a dating simulation. He's just not.

[Locut0s]

18. Lol when you said "he's that guy"...

were you thinking of this post?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1018384357

Cause that is me, not him lol. My issues are different from him and stem more from a lack of emotional maturity and lack of experience. I have a bunch of other baggage but I'm aware of all of it. His has just complete ZERO insight into ALL of his issues.

Yes I have told him all of these things at different times in the past. Usually he either says that he DOES exhibit the right reactions and emotions or he says these things aren't as important as I tell him they are. And even when he says that he acts correctly he will often make analogies that suggest to me that he doesn't. For example he works with the public and told me that he has developed a very good ability to interact with his customers and that he seems perfectly normal to them and get's along very well. However I told him that interacting with the public and your customers is different from trying to interact on a date, he doesn't agree.

[Chan790]

19. No.

You're self-aware and seemingly normal, if unexperienced.

He's the guy that is bound and determined to be as not-datable as possible.

[Locut0s]

20. I think he's also very scarred and angry...

He often admits the immense amount of frustration he deals with but not often does he voice it as anger, and when he does he voices it as anger toward his external circumstances. He's religious and will often say things like why did god curse me etc... Though I have no proof I think his anger actually stems from deeper unresolved issues. It sounds Freudian and I know that aspect of psychology is pretty much discounted nowadays but I'd say much of his anger may stem from his parents. I also sense fear from him that things will never get any better. I tell him that he needs to focus on himself first before getting a GF or relationship but he is terrified that if he doesn't solve the matter soon that things are just over for him. He's the same age as me and continually compares himself with those around him of similar age who have succeeded, and so he feels like an utter failure.

This aspect I can relate to very much as I too feel very much like this, a total failure. But he's unwilling to accept that there are many different aspects of normality. That there are people in their 40s and 50s who only just start getting their life going. That people make mistakes and fall down and get up over and over again. I tell him these things despite not feeling them myself but I know them to be the truth. When he hears them though he just rejects them as so much fluff. To him EVERYTHING is about how society measures your success, if you don't have a house and 3 kids with a mini van in your drive way by age X you are a failure. etc etc...

[Locut0s]

21. This is starting to get a little scary...

Went over to his house to night and he was REALLY upset about his image. Kept passing around and talking fast. There was tension in the room that you could have cut with a knife. I felt really uneasy with him. He was talking completely illogically about things like eye brows falling out, his reflection in a spoon etc. He's starting to come unhinged it feels. I don't know what to do honestly. I'd like to help but he's starting to scare me. And he calls me like every day or so.

[Heddi]

24. no PM yet, I'll delete my response,

I'm goin to bed, but will read what ya send me when I get up tomorrow!

[eShirl]

25. Is it possible he has undiagnosed mental illness?

[Locut0s]

26. He has a number of issues...

He knows he has Body Dismorphic Disorder but refuses to accept that the problems he has with his face and body are mental in nature and insists that they are real.

His parents made him see a psychiatrist many years ago and I believe he told me that that DR diagnosed him with borderline personality disorder, though I'm suspicious of that diagnosis from what I've read of it and what I know about him.

I suspect that he has many issues stemming from his parents that he is unwilling to deal with. In short yes I suspect he does have undiagnosed mental illness'. But he refuses to accept this possibility and refuses to seek treatment.

[Major Nikon]

28. One treatment I think may be effective is cognitive behavioral therapy

Ideally a therapist would teach this technique to him. However there are online and offline applications which can also administer this therapy. Basically what it does is it trains your brain to override irrational thoughts. It could just be that he has an aversion to going to a therapist, so this may be a better fit for him. A regular physician can also write prescriptions for anti-depression medication.

[a la izquierda]

27. Wow. He needs to see a therapist, stat.

I too have BDD, but mine image issues stem from a prolonged eating disorder. I have also been diagnosed with BPD, and let me just say no relationship will work for your friend until he gets his mind situated. I had a string of disastrous relationships until I got help.

However, I am a work in progress. I still have serious image issues. I doubt they'll ever go away, but they're at least controllable.

[Locut0s]

29. Finally told him I can't listen anymore to his issues...

Well I finally told him that I can't listen to his problems any more. I told him that if he wants to talk to me about anything else, games, movies, his job, his day, interests, friend stuff I'm always here. But I told him it's not fair to me to call me every 2nd day to talk about his problems over and over and over again and not listen to my advise. I've told him 1000x to seek help but he won't listen, he's using me as his talk therapist. I said I can't do that anymore as it's not good for me. I told him it wasn't an easy choice. I said that if he want's to talk about these issues it has to be with a therapist and I won't be there any more to listen to this stuff.

[BlueJazz]

30. He's too self-aware of himself. He has to learn to relax. He has to quit thinking of a date....

...as a "Story" or a Play.
He's trying way to hard.
He needs to chill down and just live not run his life like some gigantic big deal.

If I were a woman/girl...the knife thing would have me running away like a rocket...Zooooomm....

[Locut0s]

31. He doesn't know yet how to do any of those things...

Relax, quit thinking, chill down... these are alien concepts to him. He doesn't have a life outside of these attempts to get a GF. Outside of this ALL he does is obsess over his face and his condition and how bad his life is. He spends hours and hours and hours obsessing over stuff. He doesn't have any hobbies that bring him any pleasure. What hobbies he does have become huge obsession in their own right, to the point where if a sports team he likes doe badly he feels it's made his face worse or completely ruined his day. There really is no HIM there in some ways. If you asked him what he enjoys doing the concept itself is almost alien to him. I mean he would list off some stuff but I know from being with him that he enjoys just about nothing and everything becomes an obsession to him.