The Walking Dead finale - Carl (spoiler alert)

[NewJeffCT]

I think that just the word Carl in the subject line means you probably know what this is about.

Should Carl have shot the guy? Discuss.

The Governor's "army" was in retreat, but Carl & Hershel might not have known. (not exactly sure where they were in relation to the prison gang) If they had a prisoner, it could have been a bargaining chip.

Carl also could have done the time honored Hollywood trick of shooting the guy in the foot or arm to show them he's serious.

I can understand why Carl did it - he's pissed that he's not considered part of the "adult" crew that took part in the raids on Woodbury and the defense of the prison, and this is his way of showing otherwise.

He's certainly changed from the wandering troublemaker from Season 2 who indirectly caused Dale's death.

[Iggo]

1. Like I said in another thread...

...Carl said "Drop it". The dude didn't drop it, but instead kept moving toward Carl while slowly bringing the gun around.

Carl has learned from his own actions/inactions and the actions/inactions of others that if you don't kill the bad guy when you have a chance, members of your group may quite likely be killed.

Carl also learned the lesson of cold-bloodedness from his dad when they left Backpack Guy to die on the road.

Carl is a product of his world, and I think in the context of that world he absolutely did the right thing.

[NewJeffCT]

9. Poor backpack guy

If he had only been a few hours later, they might have taken him in...I think meeting Morgan changed Rick.

[dr.strangelove]

2. The guy did not drop the gun, at that point it is fair game

Carl told him to drop it, not walk over to me and hand it over. The guy did not listen. In "his world," you have to assume everything wants you dead. Walkers get no chances, people with guns get one very fast chance to give up the gun. If they do not, you drop them. The notion of not going for a head shot is silly. If you shoot him anywhere else, you have to waste precious supplies on him to fix him. If you shoot him somewhere else and he dies, he becomes a walker. A shot to the head is the way to go.

That said, Carl has become a bit gun happy. He is a young boy filled with hormones and has firearms. These things are not a good combination in any world. Still, I probably would have told him that I was about to fire, then did the same thing.

[NewJeffCT]

7. good points

but, I think Hershel should have tried to do something - unless Carl was too quick for him. Carl is going to be trouble with all the innocent kids from Woodbury around now.

[datasuspect]

3. at least he isn't a wuss like his old man

carl is a straight up gangster.

[NewJeffCT]

6. Rick has kept most of the group alive

for the better part of a year in the show. Sure, he's made mistakes, but they all have made them.

[datasuspect]

12. carl could reduce a season by half

he could just shoot everything and that would leave all the soap opera bullshit that makes that show suck.

[alphafemale]

4. Of course he had to shoot.

Dude was creeping closer. He thought he was looking at a weak little kid.

[NewJeffCT]

5. I think he should have given him a warning shot

or similar first.

[Chan790]

11. Waste of a bullet.

Bullets are a limited supply unless you have the materials to make your own...and those are probably in limited supply.

In a post-apoc world, bullets have a value greater than gold...wasting one on a leg shot or warning shot means one potential lost-opportunity to save someone else or yourself or repel an invasion or put down a walker. It means the real possibility that someone else dies.

Who dies so you can take a hostage or give an enemy a fair chance to surrender? That line of thinking leads to madness.

You tell him to drop it, he doesn't drop it...you plug the motherfucker and move on. You don't second-guess it or dwell on it because YOLO and in that world it might not be very long.

[alphafemale]

15. A gun aimed at your head isn't a warning? nt

[NewJeffCT]

16. In Hollywood, half the time when somebody pulls a gun on you

they're not quite ready to use it.

[datasuspect]

13. homeboy had that shit in his eyes

thought he was gonna get over on an old one legged man and a little boy.

[lunatica]

8. When Carl explained it to Rick he made perfect sense

Even Rick had to concede to Carl's logic. The adults are learning from the kids now because the kids are adapting to the new reality a lot faster.

[NewJeffCT]

10. good point

on the kids adapting faster - though, as I just posted above. I see a lot of trouble between Carl and the more sheltered Woodbury kids next season.

[datasuspect]

14. plus rick is a wuss

even to his own son.

that boy needs to wake the fuck up.

i hope he gets eaten by zombies next.

[lunatica]

34. Why do you even watch the show if you dislike everything so much

There are hundreds of other shows on tv you know.

[datasuspect]

36. i dislike rick

i like zombies.

carl is getting the point.

other than that, i wish rick would get devoured by zombies for being such a little punk.

[Duer 157099]

17. How come nobody considers the perspective of the other kid?

Who was he anyway? Was he a battle-hardened gangster like Carl? A coldblooded killer? Do we know?

Chances are very good that he would never have done what Carl did. Right?

Yeah, Carl can't take the chance, blah blah blah, but here is my biggest problem with this show: they are conflating the walkers/biters with live humans, trying to make it a natural jump that someone that kills walkers would easily kill live humans. I just don't buy that premise. All of the human-on-human violence never made a lick of sense to me at all, in the context of this story. It seems manufactured for the sake of drama, and I do not respect that tactic in storytelling.

Live humans would be doing everything possible to band together, not separate and kill each other.

Or do I live in the fantasy world? I truly believe that is how it would be.

[Baitball Blogger]

18. Lots of examples of why humans will kill humans.

Shane was the first to have the mad-eye "It's a fucking apocalypse!" attitude, killing anything he saw as a threat. By the time he died people suspected that he had thrown Otis to the zombies to give himself a running chance.

But little by little the others turned cold when they realized that there were dwindling resources and no authority to reign anybody in. Take last season, for example. Remember the guys they met with in that bar? Rick killed them because they were getting a bit interested in their numbers and wimmin? Remember how the boy they caught later explained to them that he saw the guys gang rape a girl?

Since they're always on the run, looking for a food supply, this will be an incentive to them to "not play nice." Only when they get established will they have that luxury. Bringing in the old folk from Woodbury was probably the result of Ricks revisiting his conscience through sighting of Lori and seeing his friend back home.

[Duer 157099]

19. I hear you, but...

you are using their premise to support their premise.

I contend that in the real world (lol) if we had a zombie apocalypse, things would be different.

It never made sense to me that Michonne didn't want to stay at Woodbury either. Manufactured.

I'm just saying that they could still do the story. It would just be more work and writers these day just take the easy way out. Blow shit up instead of making people think.

[ZombieHorde]

29. Again, in the comic, all of that goes down very differently.

You might like the comic more than the show.

[Duer 157099]

30. Well I'm not so sure

I've got the first compendium, but honestly I don't like that it isn't in color

I find it too hard to follow who is who. Seriously, he should add some RGBs to those bad boys.

[ZombieHorde]

31. That would be cool. nt

[The2ndWheel]

20. Unless the other guy just wants to kill you

I think it took enough human-on-human violence in actual history as mass society came together, that it's not out of the question that violence could happen after mass society falls apart. Even within modern mass society everyone isn't singing happily ever after.

It's not every man for himself on the show. Live humans have banded together, just not all in one group. Is some of the drama done for drama's sake? Sure. It is a weekly TV show. The medium itself pretty much requires it.

One thing is that it's not the beginning of the crisis anymore. At first, it's about huddled masses. A WTF just happened viewpoint. Now, Rick and the gang are a well oiled machine against the walkers. Woodbury was a nice little hamlet, armed to the teeth. Now things are becoming more about territory.

[Duer 157099]

24. I just don't buy it

We hear about violence in the world because of mass media. For most of us, it is very remote. For a few of us, it is personal, of course. But statistically, it is remote.

If it becomes less remote, and it is, I suggest that the media is partly responsible. Not because they report what is happening, but because they blow it out of proportion so that people, who don't understand statistics, think it is much more common than it is, then they get paranoid, then they arm themselves, and round it goes.

imho

[The2ndWheel]

25. We still have a functioning society

Where or what is the law on The Walking Dead? There's not even a media to tell them this, that, or anything else.

I'm not saying TWD is realistic all the time, even in the context of the zombie apocalypse. Although I don't think anyone knows for sure how that would go, unless I've missed a giant news story, but human-on-human violence would at least be plausible, even with dead people trying to eat you.

The building of civilization has been bloody. The collapse of it, in a short amount of time, probably wouldn't be be clean either.

There really hasn't even been that much human-on-human violence on the show. It's mostly been confined to Rick's group, and only a few of them, until this season. How much time has gone by on the show? Like a year? I'd say, when all has been said and done, so far, there's been more cooperation than violence between the live humans that we've seen. Sure, Shane beat the crap out of Carol's husband, but he was still part of the group.

Again, some drama for the sake of drama? Yeah.

[Duer 157099]

26. I think that humans would very fundamentally understand

the value of living human beings in such a situation. I think the violence would disappear. That's what I'm thinking is unrealistic.

After every catastrophe, people band together. I think it is human nature. If you study such events, Katrina, etc, you see people helping other people to survive. Even with no cops around. In fact, it was the COPS who caused much of the trouble with Katrina, etc. People, left to their own devices, within a major catastrophe, tend to be the best they can be.

I really believe this.

And I wish the show would depict it. Instead of creating this bullshit narrative of us-vs-them, which is actually the mentality that is destroying our society right now.

[The2ndWheel]

28. Disappear is a strong word

Would they be shooting bazooka's at each other? Probably not.

This didn't just happen though. There wasn't a disaster, then get yourself together, wait for help that you know will get there at some point, and start rebuilding like usual with the money and material of the government and local businesses. It's been months on the show.

At first, they did band together to help each other survive. Left to themselves, they would continue doing that. But if there's one guy ruining the party...

[ZombieHorde]

27. At this point in the comics, most of the humans are a bit crazy,

as opposed to just Rick. In the comics, Carl is the one the who kills Shane, and he also kills a child who caused the death of another person. They begin very peaceful and desire bringing as many people together as possible, but slowly become paranoid due to a few very tragic events.

[walkerbait41]

21. Carl did the right thing

Remember he saved Tyreese and his people

[The2ndWheel]

22. Kill or die, right?

Andrea had a chance to kill the Governor in bed, but didn't. As an indirect result, the Governor killed Milton, who in turn all but killed Andrea. Not to mention all those people the Gov killed from Woodbury.

The other kid was way too slow in dropping the gun. He seemed to be creeping way too close. He happened on Carl in the wrong place, at the wrong time. Carl is still just a kid, and his head is still trying to make sense of things. He remembered that experience with Dale, and that's his reference point. He wasn't going to let that happen again, at least not at that particular moment.

[RZM]

23. Taking prisoners hasn't worked out so well for the group

The Merle thing at the beginning was a debacle, as was Randall in the second season.

There's no Geneva convention in the zombie apocalypse.

That appears to be the tension they are going for. Holding on to civilization vs. cold-blooded calculations. They seem to be grooming Carl to be the new Shane.

[MrSlayer]

32. We were shouting for him to shoot from the moment the dude appeared.

The kid did not comply and he never took his finger away from the trigger. Carl had no choice really. Besides, this dude had just attacked their camp, he was an enemy that could never be trusted. It seemed a no-brainer to me.

[texanwitch]

33. I belong to two Walking Dead forums and this topic is hot.

Jody the teen who Carl shot was a stupid kid.

He was given the order to drop the gun and he didn't, enough said.

Carl had a baby sister to protect.

Jody was all gun happy in the prison, he was point going down the hallway.

He didn't looked scared then.

I wonder what Jody might have done if he had suprised our group.

Shot first and ask questions later?

Let's say Jody would have come up from the side or back of our group.

What would have Jody done.

He had a shotgun, he could have shot all our group in one blast.

Or what if he would have tried to take our people back to the Gov.

Just think, our guys in the hands of the Gov.

Carl did the correct thing.

I would have shot the kid sooner myself.

He got way to close to Carl, his eyes were going back and forth between the two guns pointing at him.

He was trying to get close enough to jump Carl.

Jody should have put the gun down and ran like hell.

He didn't.

He lost.

All Jody saw was a little kid and a old man, thought he could take them.

Wrong.

Carl did what he had to do.

No different from what Rick did when he shot the two guys in the bar.

They were a threat and Rick took them out.

Jody was a threat.

[NewJeffCT]

35. Some differences with Rick in the bar

They were two armed men in the bar, Jody was only one boy.

It's also questionable whether he was going to give up or try to jump Carl. I'm sure they designed the scene to feel that way as well.

It doesn't matter what Jody would have done if The Woodbury Army had gotten the jump on Team Prison. If Team Prison had the governor's team in a box, I'm sure they would have mowed them all down as well. Though, it's funny how Team Prison were all marksmen able to hit walkers between the eyes at 50 yards, but suddenly couldn't even wound anybody in the prison gang from an elevated position less than 20 yards away. Having a few dead in the prison attack from The Woodbury Army wouldn't have lessened the impact of the Governor mowing down the rest of them, I don't think.

And, Shane killing Randall (the boy they had captured in Season 2) ended up bringing on Farmageddon. Who knows what would have happened if they let him go? They might still be safe and on the farm.

[texanwitch]

37. I still stand with Carl.

Jody should have put the gun down, hands in the air.

Karen didn't get shot because she had no gun in her hands, she followed directions.

If she would jumped up in the window with a gun, Rick would have shot her.

You don't walk up to someone with a shotgun in you hand when they have two guns on you.

Jody has no one to blame but himself.

Carl had 3 people besides himself to protect.

There was just battle at Carl's home, he doesn't know what happened.

They had bugout car right behind them in the scene.

Jody could have been one of many running in that direction.

This is a walker world along with a crazy govenor.

It isn't our world.

Rick did shoot the guys in the bar because they were a threat.

Carl did the same thing with Jody.

Jody was point in the prison, he wasn't a innocent.

Carl waited to long as it was, Jody was bigger and stronger.

Even if Jody was scared, he was dangerous.

I had a shotgun pointed at me, it was scary.

The gun was empty and it was just for fun, but it was scary.

I almost had to shoot someone, it was him or me.

I had a 357 in my two hands, the guy backed down at the last second.

He was maybe 4 ft away if that, coming toward me.

He was armed.

He put down his weapon and backed off.

He is still alive I guess.

He almost wasn't.

I had my 357 aimed and ready to go.

Carl did what he had to do.

Until your life is in the balance, you will never know what you will do.

I almost waited to long, like Carl.

I credit my Army training for still being alive.

Carl is a good kid, he is living in tough world.