I don't want to be murdered.

[harmonicon]

So, follow me for a minute here.

Last week, I was in England again, and needed to pack in some serious drinking along with whatever my supposed reason for being there was.

So, this past Saturday I was in my very comfortable bar of choice (think Cheers in spirit, but not in style), and a friend and I meet this guy outside in the smoking area. He seems nice enough, and he introduces us to his friends he's with inside. This girl who's with them and I really hit it off. It was awesome, but super sad, because why didn't I meet her when I lived there and only now when I'm visiting?

Anyway, they're going to move on to another bar and ask me to come along. I say I will after I finish my drink. I go there, get a drink, and it's all kissy-kissy with this girl again. Then, the guy who introduced me to her motions for me to come over, puts his hand around my neck and says, "if I see you in town with that girl again, I'm going to kill you," and then drags me - by my neck - out of the bar and throws me on the street.

How does that work? Never have things ever gone from so good to so anti-good so quickly. I think if he really had a problem, probably the time to say something would have been an hour earlier when she and I started making out two feet from him, not an hour later. Isn't there also a fairly large space between "hands off the girl" and "I'll kill you"?

*sigh* I don't expect a response. I'm just still completely creeped out nearly a week later.

[darkangel218]

1. Thats really weird, what happened to you.

What I would've done differently tho.. I wouldn't have made out with someone I just met, in a bar. Maybe the girl was his gf, and at first he was amused, but after a while changed his mind? Alcohol does weird things to ppl.

[harmonicon]

2. Yeah, that's a fair point.

I'm just a girl (well, really a middle aged man) who can't say "no", and when a lovely lady kisses me, I go with it. (there's also the fact that England wasn't founded by puritans and is thus totally different socially, but that's more than another thread in itself)

I did make a point of asking her very early on if she was married or had a boyfriend or was out with any of those guys, though other possibilities have certainly since crossed my mind.

I think the dude was also on drugs, and I was just too distracted by the girl to notice. I went back to bar #1 and told the bouncers there (guys I've known for years) not to let this guy back in, and they said they'd already clocked him earlier as fucked up on something. STILL, it's totally nuts, right? Hell, I've made out with girls in that town who did have boyfriends in the bar, had drinks thrown on me, had a biker gang threaten me, but never a combo of two or more.

[seabeyond]

3. fairly large space between "hands off the girl" and "I'll kill you"?

odd story. to bad you didnt have time, while being dragged out, to ask what that was all about.

[harmonicon]

7. Oh, I tried to ask. He didn't want to talk. (nt)

[nolabear]

70. I suspect that fairly large space was filled with alcohol.

Drunks will do things they'd never do when sober.

[Ter]

4. Violence is always wrong

But when guys you don't know invite you to hang out with them at a bar, don't hit on any females they are with period. If you feel you absolutely have to, certainly don't kiss her in front of them, you don't know who's dating or seeing who yet. Maybe he really liked her and was about to hook up until you came along. I certainly can see why they would pissed. I'd be furious.

[harmonicon]

8. In Saudi Arabia, you mean?

I think women in their 30's should be able to decide what they want to do without having to ask the men they know. If she chose me over someone else, I don't think that should be made my problem.

[datasuspect]

13. yeah, but someone made it your problem

when they grabbed your throat and tossed you in the gutter like a sack of potatoes.

always know the score before you do anything.

i don't think you are stupid, but did you live a sheltered life?

[harmonicon]

14. No... I'm just an idiot.

The thing is, I really tried to know the score. I went to pretty good measures to make sure it was even ok for me to be hitting on this girl well before she kissed me. What's so crazy about it is that this guy introduced me to her. He wasn't like, "these are my friends. Please, just look. Do not interact with them."

[datasuspect]

15. that's weird

my paranoia meter keeps me away from groups like that. too many variables involved.

i'm glad you didn't get stabbed or anything. that's a realistic proposition in some pubs. them boys love their machetes.

[harmonicon]

18. They do.

There are only a few bars I go into in that town, and I'm known in them. I try to stay out of the dodgy ones.

Just to be clear, it's the death threat part that has me the most weirded out, because I think he meant it. If he'd just said, "get the fuck out of here," I'd be mostly ok with that - I mean, that's not too uncommon. I just think he really meant that if he saw me with that girl again, he would stab me. That's the other crazy thing... if it was the woman who had the problem with me, he wouldn't have had to say anything.

[Ter]

32. In the US I mean

You don't kiss someone you just were introduced to by strangers who were nice to you anyway. They probably thought you were a player doucebag (I'm not saying you are, but that's what they likely thought). Are you guido? It sounds very Jersey Shore to do something like that. Even if she tried to kiss you first, obviously she was trashed and it looked like you were taking advantage of her.

Sorry, but let's say I introduce you to my best friend who's been drinking and happens to be a female that's 30. If a half hour later you are kissing her in the bar publicly...Well, I'm sorry, but we're fighting.

[harmonicon]

33. So, your point is that the world is full of jerks like you?

Ok, got it. I honestly hope I never meet you in real life.

"sorry, but we're fighting." ?!? Seriously? You're a grown man who would fight someone in public? Are you sure you're on the right website here?

[Ter]

34. No, the jerks are the players who take advantage of drunk girls like yourself

Keep in in your pants and show some respect for women who are obviously not in the right state of mind. You're on the wrong website.

Sincerely,
Guido player hater

[harmonicon]

36. Let me set you straight here.

For one, this didn't all happen in the US. Got that? Your shit about what you would do in the US doesn't really apply. I'm glad that the Puritans left the UK, because at least that country got to stay un-fuckedup by their shit.

Where in the story did I say this girl wasn't in the right state of mind? Is it that women who go off with men without your permission are not in their right state of mind? How do you judge this? Do women always need your permission to be full human beings, or is it just when they're drinking?

I won't give you any answer about whether or not I'm a "Guido" just as I wouldn't tell you if I were a "wetback."

Am I a "player" though? No, I don't think so, but I don't think I'll waste my time explaining that to you.

[Ter]

40. No shit it didn't happen in the US

You replied earlier "Saudi Arabia" so I replied the US (indicating my views on this are not SA, but US). I know it happened in the UK.

You didn't have to say she wasn't in the right state of mind. She was at a bar before you met with her. Even if she said she was fine she may have been tanked. And who kisses in public as soon as they meet anyway? What are you in high school? That's a major sign of playorism, something many good men try to put a stop to.

And guido is not a racial term, it's a style. I am Italian and I can't stand giudos. You don't even have to be Italian to be one. Just ask Snooki.

You can cry all you want about this, but if you were nice and just talked and laughed with her at the bar the guys likely would have been fine with it. You would have left with her number, and you would be hanging out with her the following days. Now you're by yourself.

[harmonicon]

42. "And who kisses in public as soon as they meet anyway?"

Like I said, this happened in the UK. You're a very sheltered lad, aren't you?

[Ter]

69. No, unfortunately some of my friends are players

But why kiss so soon? Why not get to know her and take her on a date first?

[harmonicon]

71. Kissing is nice?

I promise not to date your sister/mother/daughter if it makes you uncomfortable.

[Ter]

72. Kissing is amazing

Believe me, I love making out. I just don't rush it that quick. I have, but that was when I was high school age. Then again, I have always been uncomfortable kissing in front of a crowd.

And you can have my sister, but I wouldn't wish her on anyone.

[Baitball Blogger]

5. Very weird.

I'm going to look for the best response to help you get over it: It's very possible that the girl was allowing you to make the moves on her because she wanted to get the other guy jealous. In that case, there were things about her that would probably make that moment less pleasant.

[harmonicon]

10. The fact that she'd even be friends with this guy makes her unpleasant in my book.

The entire thing is just too weird.

[HEyHEY]

38. Yeha could be that too

I had a friend sucker punched in Hawaii after meeting a bunch of locals, going to their beach party and talking too much to some girl who had a boyfriend there as well. Could have been a pawn. Almost broke his jaw and knocked him cold. The next day he went to the bar where he met them and talk to the girl, suddenly she was really standoffish, especially when he asked her to sign a police report.

[LeftinOH]

6. Speculation: Girl and guy have a "thrill" pattern in which

she gets all flirty/touchy with some stranger, and she likes to see how far it goes before her man gets angry..which is a turn-on for her. The man puts up with this time and again, knowing that eventually he'll have to put on the "angry boyfriend" routine, but is willing to let the stranger go pretty far, because it takes quite a while to get him riled up.

Seriously.. I worked with a woman like this. I don't even think that she and her husband were conscious of this pattern.. it was just their "thing".

[harmonicon]

9. Some variant of that may be likely.

Thing is, he introduced me to another woman they were with as his girlfriend, and I was talking to all of them for a long time. Anyway, drugs make people fucked up? Is that my lesson? I'm just at a bit of a loss with this one.

[Quantess]

19. That could be very likely...

We weren't there so we can't know for sure, but I suspect you are onto something.

Then the two weirdos went home and had kinky sex about the whole scenario.
Sorry harmonicon. Sounds like you got used like a sex toy and then discarded.

[struggle4progress]

23. +

sadly, I've actually known couples like that

[geardaddy]

43. That sounds like a distinct possibility. n/t

[Incitatus]

11. A brother maybe, or some jealous guy stuck in the friend zone. nt

[Rob H.]

73. That was my first thought, too

Sounds like out-of-control protectiveness if her brother and crazy protectiveness/jealousy if a friend-zoned guy.

Maybe the guy just likes to shove other people around to make himself look tough, though. Those creeps are out there, too.

[datasuspect]

12. if someone got close enough to me to put their hands somewhere

where they could damage me or kill me, i'd probably be sitting in jail or a hospital. how in the fuck did some guy get the drop on you like that PLUS drag you across the floor AND throw you in the street?

i don't understand.

no fucking way should you ever traipse off with strange people outside of your own village.

hand on the neck?

that's when you go into blind white hot rage mode and do everything to protect your own life, regardless of consequences.

the world has never been a safe place.

do you just inherently trust people?

that's an odd position for me to understand. If i don't know you, i ain't talking to you. in fact, i will automatically assume you mean some evil toward me, unless you are kin or a long term friend, there's no way you're ever getting too close.

[harmonicon]

16. I used to be that way, but now I'm less suspicious.

I just had to get that way when I moved to the UK if I was going to make any friends outside of my small academic circle. Heck, that's how I met my good friend I was out with when we met this guy.

I just didn't think I was letting anyone get the drop on me - I thought he just wanted to talk when he motioned me over, because I'd been talking to him off and on for hours. I'm not one to fight, and this guy was at least a head taller than me (5'7" to 6'4" or so). Maybe I had my guard down because I met these guys in a bar which is basically my home, and I shouldn't have gone with them to another place (which didn't have a bouncer on the door, which is crazy). If he'd tried that in bar #1, it would have been stopped pronto, and he would have been in for a world of hurt.

Oh well. I know there's a lesson to be learned in this, but I'm sure I'll fail to learn it. Make sure that nice people you meet aren't secretly crazy? I just don't know.

[datasuspect]

17. people ain't nothing but trouble

i generally stay away from them

[harmonicon]

20. You can miss out on a lot of good friends with that attitude though.

I have a number of good friends I met just by striking up a conversation. I wouldn't trade them for a lack of the rare awkward encounter.

[HEyHEY]

39. A good rule is...

Don't follow a mixed group anywhere.

[noamnety]

21. The reactions here surprise me.

They seem to range from blaming the victim (you) to blaming her for being the sort of woman who would be with him, to assuming she wants the violence to happen.

What the heck?

The guy's an ass. She may or may not have been a victim of it. If you have no way to contact her again there's not much you can do for her, but it would have been nice to have a way to warn her that the guy threatened you, because she needs to know it's in him.

Ideally, telling the bar management is good, and even better telling the police you were threatened, to build a file on him so the next person he threatens or hurts is taken more seriously.

But I will also admit that when I was grabbed by creepy grocery store dude this month I did none of that. I went home and got weirded out, and replayed the incident again and again, mentally testing out different endings.

[harmonicon]

22. In part, I'm too forgiving, but I also don't think the police would have done anything.

What they would have heard is this: I was drunk and in a bar, kissing a girl, and a guy grabbed me and wanted to fight. That must happen 1,000 times a night in that town.

The police didn't do anything last year when a taxi driver grabbed a friend of mine when they got to her house. For one, since she'd admitted to having had a few drinks, they wouldn't take a police report from her. By that time, her roommate's windshield had been smashed (wonder by who... jeez). I got really upset, because I'd been in the cab and got dropped off first. I just figured they'd be safe in a cab, but I was wrong. Some people are just crazy. The police came around a few times, but ultimately did nothing, because it was her word against his.

[noamnety]

24. I understand completely.

All you can do is hope that if another woman files a complaint against him in the future they'll see a pattern and be more likely to believe her. But it feels very futile to file a report knowing nothing will happen.

[Taverner]

25. Fuck him. He's a fucking cretin.

I'd make a point of dating the girl, getting photobooth pictures taken, and then sending them to him.

And if he tries to kill you, a good punch in the middle of the throat usually calms most people down.

[harmonicon]

27. Well, that's not an option. I won't be back there now until January.

My last three days there I was looking over the shoulder though.

I do, however, wonder what the woman thought about this - I didn't even have time to get a look at her reaction, and once I was on the street, I got the hell out of there, because that guy meant business.

[Taverner]

29. Then celebrate the fact that you are alive

And do whatever the hell you want!

Sounds like this guy was a creep, so in a way you RESCUED her from a cretin.

You did good!

[Joe Shlabotnik]

26. I used to find myself in situations like that.

But eventually after finding a few establishments to call home(s), I found that that being flirtatious with cute waitresses and bartenders was safer and paid off greater dividends.

[harmonicon]

28. I try not to hit on waitresses or bartenders.

For one, I think it's rude if they're working, but - more importantly - if I find a place I love to hang out at, I don't want to spoil it with a failed personal relationship. Being just friends with bar staff is different though - I think that pays off well.

[Joe Shlabotnik]

30. Good points.

I wouldn't bother them if they were working, but I'd usually sit at the bar and chat with them when things were slow. Often I'd be there late at night, and would help bring inside the patio furniture, or bounce a few rowdies for them. Many like to have a few drinks after the doors close, and often I'd walk them to their cars or give them a lift home.

But I think they knew me well enough to know I wasn't about to get involved in anything long term or meaningful. (Just a good looking, kind hearted scoundrel).

[harmonicon]

31. Sounds a lot like the place I love in England...

or one that used to exist in Prague, for that matter.

I like places where you know all of the employees by name, can hang out after hours, get the staff discount, etc. If that means I help sweep up from time to time, pick up glassware, take in the outside furniture, etc. I'm fine with that.

[Shankapotomus]

35. That guy was wrong

The woman had made her choice and, as hard as it may have been for him, it wasn't his to make for her. Her life is not his property to decide how it will evolve.

[HEyHEY]

37. Don't be afraid of Brits unless they have a Liverpool or Newcastle accent...

When I lived abroad, I had many British friends. One thing I picked up on is that they chirp and never actually throw down, aside from the Georgies and Scousers. I'm from Canada and (BTW this is not some tough guy nationalistic nonsense) we never say fighting words unless we actually want to fight, perhaps that's a byproduct of the pathatlogically polite culture.

I actually had a British friend tell me once after a possible brawl that he wasn't worried until me and my other friend from Canada stood up when all the talk was going on, then he realized a fight could actually happen cause he'd never seen us react like that (And believe me there was a lot of close calls in them days). It didn't. But after my kinsmen and I were talking, and we both couldn't believe there was that much talking going without a scrap, which is why we both stood up, we thought there was actually going to be a scrap. We had no idea that the Brits, and other nations, just flap their gums alot.

Next time tell the asshole that you're pleased to accomdate him on the sidewalk and watch his balls shrivel.

BTW: Same friend was shocked when I once stood up, grabbed a guy by his lapels and threw him 20 feet across the bar. What no one else saw is that ANOTHER guy was in the mix and he shoved at the same time I threw, so I looked like superman. We were both standing up for a very nice old man and regular at our pub that this tourist was picking on for some reason.

[harmonicon]

41. This guy was Polish, and he meant it.

I lived in the UK for a long time, and there are definitely more fights there than in the US, at least comparing the places in both countries where I lived. ... That said, the one time anyone hit me as an adult was around LA, somewhere in the valley.

[HEyHEY]

47. Oh, Dude.....

NEVER follow shifty Eastern Europeans to another location!

[harmonicon]

49. He seemed ok though!

The ironic thing is that earlier in the night, I was telling my friend DD (who's from Burundi) that he shouldn't hold stereotypes about Polish people, just as we don't want people to have stereotypes about us. One reason he started talking to this guy was to try to help a Polish friend of his find work who was about to move to that town. Before meeting this guy, the people I was with were from Greece, France, and Burundi (2). I figure there's some solidarity between foreigners. I guess not always.

[geardaddy]

45. You've never been to Caernarfon then.

Fighting's a city sport there.

[HEyHEY]

48. Eso es sólo porque nadie nunca ha dicho y Sentencia en galés sin iniciar una pelea!

[geardaddy]

50. Beth wyt ti'n deud?

What does that even mean?

"That's only because no one has ever said and Judgment in Welsh without starting a fight!"

[HEyHEY]

53. Blame google translate.

I meant "sentence" I guess google thought I meant it legally.... let's face it, there's a joke in there.

[geardaddy]

55. Haha!

Yeah, there must be some Freudian English person doing the translation.

[harmonicon]

51. I have!

I was just there for an afternoon though. Fascinating place... however, a number of the pubs there are places I'd be scared to enter just as an English speaker, let alone a foreigner. Even a Welsh-speaking friend of mine told me it's a place where people will all turn around if they hear some English in the pub.

[geardaddy]

52. Yep, that's why I always order in Welsh when I'm there.

Even as a learner, they'll like you for learning.

They have a long-standing history of being quite rough. Since the Middle Ages.

[harmonicon]

54. I don't remember the history exactly...

but isn't that place why the Prince still holds the title "Prince of Wales"? Something about a prince being born there as part of solidifying control of the Welsh, right? In any case, it was the one place in Wales I've been that was majority Welsh-speaking. A good friend of mine said that it's also a sort of oddity that the working class there speak Welsh, whereas in many other places, speaking Welsh was something more like a middle-class privilege.

[geardaddy]

56. Yeah, that was Edward I

I think. The Welsh said they had to have a prince who didn't speak English, so the English gave the title to a baby.

Most of west Wales is Welsh-speaking and it's really more of an oddity that middle class people speak Welsh as a first language. The working class in west and north Wales speaking Welsh is more the norm.

[harmonicon]

57. My Welsh friends are from the west, and they speak it as a first language.

Most people I encountered in the north seemed to speak English, but I noticed when I stayed in Bangor for a conference that the cleaning women spoke Welsh, but most of the town seemed to be English speaking - maybe because it's a university town... I don't know.

[geardaddy]

58. That's true. It's a university town.

I lived in Bangor for three months and most of the people there are students from other parts of the UK and the world. Most of the people from the area speak Welsh as a first language. In the Northwest it's very common for the working class to speak Welsh. There are a lot of incomers from England retiring there now and so English is being heard more on the streets than it used to a decade or so ago.

[harmonicon]

60. I've had a few great nights in Bangor.

I went there with my brother as a tourist, and we wound up staying at a pub at their staff party night until about 4am on a Sunday. Good times... everyone spoke English, but I guess a number of them weren't from there.

[geardaddy]

62. Do you remember the pub?

Usually the Welsh-speakers hang out away from Upper Bangor where the Uni is. I lived down near the boat yard and went to the Union Garth. I heard loads of Welsh down there.

[harmonicon]

64. Unfortunately, I don't!

It wasn't up by the uni though, it was down the hill. We knew we'd hit on a good place when we got our drinks, went upstairs and saw the landlord of the B&B we were staying at drinking there.

[geardaddy]

66. That could have been the Union Garth

Was the landlord an old guy with white hair? Was the pub nautically-themed?

I lived two doors down from there. Awesome local.

[harmonicon]

67. Aren't most landlords old guys with white hair?!

The landlord of the pub was actually a younger guy. Theme....? Drinking, I think.

[geardaddy]

68. Chwarae teg

Fair play.

[Arugula Latte]

44. Maybe the alcohol really kicked in and emboldened him?

Definitely weird, though.

[harmonicon]

46. I think he was on drugs.

He seemed ok when I met him, and I was probably too distracted by just talking to this woman later on to notice, but when I went back to the first bar and told the bouncers not to let the guy back in, they said they'd already noticed he seemed like he was on drugs and weren't going to let him back in anyway.

I'm pretty much calmed down about it now, but it left me skittish for about a week.

[geardaddy]

59. What town was it? n/t

[harmonicon]

61. Rather not say - I'm too into my anonymity.

A town in Yorkshire where I lived for five years.

[geardaddy]

63. OK, no problem.

[Tom Ripley]

65. Maybe that's some kinky role-playing they enjoy?

People are weird