Serious question - do you give beer to an alcoholic?

[nadine_mn]

Ok - I know the obvious answer is no, but hear me out

My uncle is a severe alcoholic - he is in his 50's and has had a problem for most of his life. My grandparents have taken care of him most of his life (so he never hit rock bottom, very co-dependent with my grandma) and unfortunately they passed away a few years ago. Since then he has been really hitting bottom - lost his job (I think he quit) and is out of money.

He has been living in their house (not paid off because they had taken out a mortgage to help him out, so he is paying that) and my other uncles have been giving him money to pay bills when he runs out. I think he quit his job because the hours were so long and I don't think he could go that long without a drink.

I think he is at the point in his alcoholism that he needs to drink just to function otherwise the withdrawal is too painful. Clearly he needs treatment - which I don't think is going to happen. When we found out his house is empty of food and he has been taking his dog to the animal shelter to get food, we decided to come up for Thanksgiving and bring one of those pre-cooked meals you can get at the grocery store (whole turkey, pound of beans, pound of mashed potatoes, gravy, stuffing etc) and bring him up some dog food and the some basics - toilet paper, laundry soap, some canned food etc.

I do not want to enable him buy bringing alcohol... but then I am worried about how sick he might be. I know that alcoholics always find a way to get some alcohol. I know he is hitting rock bottom now, but I am worried that his physical health can't handle it (which is why I wish he would go to a treatment center where he can get medical supervision).

Ok so this has been a stupid question - but I just feel so damn helpless. My uncle is really a wonderful man with a big heart and I truly hate this disease that has taken him from us.

[hlthe2b]

1. I think this one has lots of dissenting opinions--even from the experts...

But, still, it would be the experts I would consult...

The safest bet is to keep doing what you are doing--providing him (and his dog) the essentials to survive, which would not include alcohol...I feel for you and your family.... Most of us have dealt with one or more family members and a serious alcohol problem.. Unfortunately, there is not a single solution/cure for all.

[seabeyond]

2. My brother in all ways including age

Give him beer, no lectures. Just love, accept. There just is not anything that can be done

[Vanje]

117. .....but take away his car keys.

Do

[seabeyond]

120. these type of alcoholics rarely socially drink at family gatherings to get drunk. just a nursing of

beer to keep back the shakes and other issues. they generally drink no more than anyone else. but, i hear ya.

it is all sad.

my brother wont even come to a family gathering cause he knows the judgment. i would prefer we accept him for who he is, and allow him to be with family. and if he stays at house longer to sober up (if he needs to which he wouldnt) then so be it.

i am thinking christmas. trying to get him here.

[Taverner]

3. Can he see a doctor? Because going off alcohol can KILL.

Usually the doc will prescribe a few days of Lithium or Diazapam. That will keep the heart from going too fast and thus getting an attack.

If he can't see a doctor, then giving him beer may not be such a bad idea. It is better than death.

[nadine_mn]

9. This is my fear... that the withdrawl will kill him

He can easily drink a case or 2 in a day and I know that he needs at least 6 beers just to feel "normal". I am worried what he might drink to get a buzz if he can't get beer.

[Taverner]

21. Honestly, as a stop-gap solution, I would give him beer

But make him promise to see a doctor in exchange

[dixiegrrrrl]

10. Taverner is correct.

I worked as addicitons counselor for over 20 years.

Even a functional alcoholic will go into serious withdrawal around day 3 of no boooze, and it can kill a person.
Your uncle is a non-functional alcoholic, in that he cannot provide for himself. Betcha he is not eating much, so all that food will just come back up if he eats a lot of it.
Betcha also that his judgement is really poor, again depending on what stage of alcoholism he is in.
Google "wet brain".
He has got to be in stage 3, from what you are describing, meaning he had to drink to live, his body is highly dependent on booze.
At this stage, the chances of him having it together enough to accept help is poor.

Now, if you happen to live in a state like Fla. where there is mandatory evaluation and treatment for alcoholism...
there is hope.
But currently, again as you describe it, he has no reason to change anything, since he does not have to work, he has a roof over his head, food is provided, people check on him, and take care of him.
Does he drive a car? THAT would be most dangerous for him and others.
does he smoke? Chances are good he will pass out with lit cigarette and burn the house down. that happens a LOT.

He will die from drinking, eventually.
He may live with treatment.
Thems the only 2 options.

[nadine_mn]

13. you have described him pretty well

I think my uncles will help pay for the house for 2 reasons 1. they don't want to deal with him maybe moving in with them and 2. they want to keep the house in the family and are fine with him living there

He has been so depressed (esp after my grandparents died) and has been suicidal in the past. I don't want to enable, but on the other hand I can't bear the thought of him not having food or heat (plus we love his dog and of course would be willing to take his dog in).

Thank god he quit smoking, but he still drives - not very far and not often because the car is unreliable.

Is there anything positive I can do? I do not have the family support to have any type of intervention - it would just be me, and his brothers and my mom just talk about him behind his back.

[Major Nikon]

18. I'm not so convinced that those are the only 2 options

While medically supervised detox is a great idea for those who are severely addicted to alcohol, it's not the only way.

According to Harvard Medical School about 50% of alcoholics recover from their addiction, yet only 10% ever receive treatment. This suggests that the majority of alcoholics recover either on their own, or at least outside of traditional treatment options. This idea is well supported by the NESARC study.

My grandfather was a severe alcoholic, but he quit to the point of complete abstinense all on his own. I suspect there are many such stories out there.

[Taverner]

22. Your grandfather believed in himself, that's why

If you lack the will, change is impossible

So for the sake of this man's life, I would at least see a Doc about getting some pills to mitigate the heart rate increase

[Major Nikon]

23. I agree

The key is the person has to want to change regardless of the treatment. Some never do, even if they know their demons are destroying them.

[dixiegrrrrl]

24. Depending on the stage of the disease

it is true that some alcoholics can quit on their own.
Again, depending on the stage of the disease.
I was remiss however, in not mentioning that recovery groups such as AA have been instrumental in recovery from alcoholism (which I personally count as an effective form of treatment, but not sure the Harvard Medical School did)

[Major Nikon]

29. I'm not so convinced of the efficacy of AA

If you look at AA's own survey data, their long term sobriety numbers are about the same as for all alcoholics. Now consider that the vast majority of AA members come to the program of their own free will, which means you are talking about people that have a strong enough desire to quit to attend AA. Intuitively you would expect AA's success rate to be much higher, if for no other reason than their pool is mostly limited to the subset of people who want to quit vs people who may or may not want to quit. Yet it's not. That suggests to me that AA is actually counterproductive. If you look at their methods, it's not hard to find a reason. Their methods teach things that are just flat out wrong at worst and extremely misleading at best.

[Mosby]

61. I went to some AA and NA meetings with a friend

at the meetings people sat around and told drug stories. by the end of the meetings I felt like smoking a joint.

[TrogL]

75. Yeah, there's a lot of that at NA meetings

There's even drug talk at AA meetings from the dually addicted. It's discouraged, but some have no place else to go.

[Auggie]

4. Doing so would be approving of a destructive lifestyle, IMO

[elleng]

5. Family should stop enabling, confront him, and get him into a program.

Nothing ELSE is a solution. Sorry.

http://www.lakesidemilam.com/

[nadine_mn]

6. I have known that for years - but his brothers and sister (my mom) won't

When I was younger and my grandma was alive, we told her she was enabling him and she said she didn't care, she didn't want to see him hit rock bottom.

Now that she is gone, it is just his brothers and my mom. My other uncles also have an alcohol problem.

So yes in a perfect world your answer would be the solution. However in reality - he has no support (my uncles will NOT support him in sobriety, in the past when he has tried they do not stop drinking around him him), there is no money for treatment and no one in my family will confront him.

I have been through this for years and I am realistic in what my family will do and won't do.

[elleng]

11. VERY sorry.

Sounds like the rest of the family is protecting themselves from having to confront their OWN alcoholism, not an unusual situation. Its a TERRIBLE disease.

[dixiegrrrrl]

14. "I have been through this for years and I am realistic in what my family will do and won't do."

Then what is the point of asking the question?


Sounds like one of those "yes, but........" questions, in which the correct answer is not wanted.

[nadine_mn]

16. I think you missed what I meant

I know my family will not support his sobriety or confront him - because we have had all the discussions in the past.

Whenever my husband and I spend time with my uncle, we NEVER drink nor do we bring alcohol. We have visited him over the years - and in the past he has had employment and has always had beer in the house.

But now he has nothing - no job and no money. So the situation is different which is why I asked the question - when we bring food do we bring some beer too. I am inclined not to knowing that somehow he will find a way and I do not want to support his alcoholism,

However, as I have been thinking about how far he is into his alcoholism - can his body handle going cold turkey? That is why I asked. I am sorry my question bothered you.

[dixiegrrrrl]

25. I hear you now, nadine..

and I am sorry if I sounded harsher than I meant to.

Is he eating the food you have been bringing? If so, that is a good sign.
Dunno if his body can handle going cold turkey, I am not a doctor, nor has his level of addiction been evaluated by a trained person.
If you do not bring him beer, he will find a way to drink, as you have noticed.

Best bet is to bring the food, and lovingly tell him he is free to contact you or any receptive family member if he wants to/needs to see a Dr. or is sick and needs a trip to the ER. Hopefully there is a phone line in the house.
Then you can tell ER staff about his drinking history, if they cannot spot it on their own.

[Curmudgeoness]

35. Based on what you are saying and feeling,

I would not give him beer when you visit, but since you do not know his condition, have some beer in the car....just don't bring it into the house unless you realize that he needs it. This way, you are not enabling him by providing it to him, but you could help him if it is necessary.

My father was a binge alcoholic, and ended up in the hospital several times.....and I know that they would furnish him with alcohol to slowly wean him off. So this was part of treatment.

[TrogL]

7. Ask a detox clinic

I've been through alcohol withdrawal, but I wasn't that far gone. At worst he may need to taper off for a week, then go cold turkey.

Find out if he has any aversion to talking to the AA folks (and you might want to have a word with Al-Anon) and make sure it's reality-based. (AA-haters please note this before you start in).

[geardaddy]

8. One word: Hazelden

You are not in a position to help him other than helping him with essential items.
http://www.hazelden.org/

[d_r]

12. Honestly it is your call

you know and understand the arguments against it. You know the nuances of the situation. There isn't a right or wrong answer. It's a bad and unfair situation for you to be in. Life deals those situations out. Give yourself permission to do what you think is best, understanding that there are going to be downsides to whatever you do.

[HopeHoops]

15. Yes.

Some of us don't function without it. I didn't function without coffee (2 pots or more a day) for years. I didn't function without weed (took all of my finals after 3-4 bong hits and graduated Magna Cum Laude). I don't do either of those things now. I get loaded just to get on the computer. I have to lay off the alcohol to get wasted on oxycodone and Larazapam (they don't mix well with booze).

The reality is that we're all addicted to something. Some people are addicted to silly religious shit and others to substances or video games or chocolate. There isn't a difference. So yeah, grab a bottle and offer to share it. If that's the way he wants it, love him for it and support him.

I suffer from seizures (tonic-clonic) and curiously alcohol is one of the most effective suppressants for that condition (I also take medicine for it). And yes, we find ways of getting our booze. Don't ever be disillusioned about that. A treatment center is useless. They push that AA religious crap down your throat and nobody buys it. They're also expensive. Been there, done that, got the bill.

I'm a loving husband with a wife I committed to in '84 (and wouldn't trade her for anything). We've got three daughters, 17, 19, and 21. I'm an admitted alcoholic and bust whatever ass I've got left to keep the family going, and whatever ass challenges me in a bar. Sometimes that's my main energy. Sometimes it isn't. Don't punish him for his condition. We're stuck with it, and so is he. It isn't so bad. Just love him for who he is - and buy him a bottle.

[Major Nikon]

20. I don't think alcoholism is as cut and dried as many would believe

Treatment programs that work on some form of the AA model just aren't that effective. Even AA's own data (when interpreted without bias) suggests this. The guy that came up with AA's method was a religious nut who had zero formal education and experience in mental health.

I also don't believe that complete abstentia from alcohol is necessary for recovery. Although this is the most likely scenario, it is by no means the only one. Many people recover from the detrimental effects of alcoholism, yet continue to drink.

[HopeHoops]

30. The blue book is rather silly. I've read it and it's silly.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

27. Ummmmmmmm

AA isn't religious........

[HopeHoops]

31. Oh the hell it isn't. Been there, done that, got the silly blue book - it's a cult.

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

37. If it was a cult

there would be an identified leader who told everyone how to think. That is not my experience.
Maybe you are not alcoholic. If that is so, the things alcoholics do, using the method outlined in the 'silly blue book' would not appeal to you.

[HopeHoops]

42. I just couldn't deal with all the prayer stuff. It's disingenuous for me to comply with that.

I'm sorry, but I'm agnostic and the whole "faith" thing turned me off.

[bluedave]

53. I'm agnostic too

which basically means I think anything is possible-didn't stop me from using AA when I needed it and made some damn fine friends there.Now I drink a very occasional wine or beer and am doing well---so say a few serenity prayers and get over it-no harm done eh?

[HopeHoops]

54. I just remain silent while people chant ritualistic stuff.

It would be disingenuous to participate in the chorus.

[bluedave]

98. yep

and no one there will fault you for it

[HopeHoops]

105. That wasn't my experience - strong peer pressure. Then again, it was in Florida.

[bluedave]

110. Ahh Fla.

Probably a lot of what they called bleeding deacon types there-I was lucky in that the local group here were free thinkers

[HopeHoops]

111. Maybe it was the booze and drugs, but everyone thought they were Pat Robertson.

[bluedave]

119. Somebody should have pointed out to them

that they need to take their OWN inventory

[Major Nikon]

32. Ummmm, yes it is

1.We admitted we were powerless over alcohol - that our lives had become unmanageable.
2.Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
3.Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
4.Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
5.Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
6.Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
7.Humbly asked Him to remove our shortcomings.
8.Made a list of all persons we had harmed, and became willing to make amends to them all.
9.Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
10.Continued to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
11.Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.
12.Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics, and to practice these principles in all our affairs.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Twelve-step_program#Twelve_Steps

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

38. How does this make it religious?

Talking about God isn't a religion...........

[Major Nikon]

40. So your claim is it's secular?

I think where you're getting confused is because it doesn't refer to any one specific religion, but that doesn't make it secular. When you are, in fact, calling on a supreme being for assistance, you have just stepped out of the secular realm and into a religious one.

As it turns out, AA's answer to this is quite comical. If you don't have a specific religion, you can just make one up. No really. Any higher power will do. So what happens if you're an atheist, agnostic, or some other form of non-theist? AA tells you that you either have to get god, or you are going to die. I know this sounds like bullshit (and it is), but that's really how it goes. If you don't believe it, just read chapter 4 of the blue book.

To one who feels he is an atheist or agnostic such an experience seems impossible, but to continue as he is means disaster, especially if he is an alcoholic of the hopeless variety.

http://www.aa.org/bigbookonline/en_bigbook_chapt4.pdf

[HopeHoops]

43. Well stated. That's exactly what I'm talking about. NA's the same way.

[Major Nikon]

44. It's god. That's how AA works

The 12 steps were conceived by a religious nut of the first order. The guy was really a piece of work.

I have seen no studies which suggest that twelve step programs are in any way effective and the problem I have with them is they appear to me to be quite dangerous. I just don't see any good coming from teaching people they are powerless over alcohol and I can see a lot of bad. They are actually teaching people that if they aren't successful, they are going to die. This is toxic. It's cult-like, and it's wrong. When you consider that only 1% of AA inductees will ever get their 10 year coin, it's downright scary. They actually teach people to wallow in guilt and to focus on the past as part of the religious idea of atonement, but people who are actual professionals in mental health teach the exact opposite. They get people to focus on the future and what they can change, rather than past mistakes which leads to or feeds depression.

[HopeHoops]

45. It essentially says "you're worthless and weak". I'm a drunk, but I'm not worthless.

My body is physically weak, but my mind isn't. I've never been seduced by a cult and I never will be. I'm too fucking arrogant for that. Yes, I drink. My liver and kidneys are all working fine. I call myself an alcoholic but others disagree. Maybe I'm not, but I like my booze. And do I type like a sot? I leave it alone before taking my narcotics (prescribed, mind you) because they aren't compatible. I won't even take ibuprofen when I've got alcohol in my system. Acetaminophen is worse, but both are bad. And I don't do aspirin because my brother died of Reye's Syndrome. It scares me.

Bill Wilson and Bob Smith were pretty demented bastards. They were pro-prohibition (if that makes sense) and religious wingnuts. The "Big Book" (blue book) is a bunch of bullshit. I'm serious - it's a fucking cult. Get the damn poker chips and say your prayers so GOD can save you from yourself. Talk about defeatism. The only tokens I want are the ones I get when someone buys me a drink and I'm not ready for one.

Fuck AA. Fuck NA. They're stupid bullshit. And I gave up pot on my own 23 years ago so we could clean out before conceiving our first daughter. There's no evidence of birth defects from pot, but we decided not to take the chance. We went booze free then too. I got my nuts clipped and my wife's not going to have anymore children so fuck it.

Sorry for the rant, but I think that cult hurts far more than it helps. "As the good book says..." - and yes, I've heard that line used.

[Major Nikon]

46. It's how religion and cults work

The idea that only stupid people fall for cults has no foundation. People who are in cults are just as intelligent as everyone else. Cults lure people in by recruiting them during their weakest moments.

Back in the 30's they used to treat alcoholics by putting them in a hospital and stringing them out on drugs. Bill Wilson dreamed up AA while he was delusional (even more so than he apparently already was). His idea was that sin causes alcoholism. If you read the 12 steps, none of them tell you to stop or curtail your drinking. It's all about the Judo-Christian idea of atonement which has pretty much zero relation to anything that actually works. It was a bad idea that just never got any better. I really don't understand why so many promote it.

[HopeHoops]

47. BINGO! FINALLY someone else who understands.

They promote it because there's money in it. Just like everything else. "Not all of us drink because we're poets. Some of us drink because we're not poets" - The late Dudley Moore in "Arthur".

[TrogL]

60. WHAT money???

I've been an AA treasurer. Most groups have less than $100 in the bank, assuming they have a bank account at all.

When AA was first formed, they got advice on that exact issue and were plainly told to "be broke".

[Mosby]

64. I think 12 step programs proliferate in private treatment centers

because it's a free off the shelf program, they don't have to pay professionals to develop a treatment milieu.

[TrogL]

70. Private treatment centres can't call themselves "AA"

At best, they can host a group at arm's length.

[TrogL]

57. Uh, because for some people it works?

While you're at it, define "cult". By the time AA qualifies, so would the Democratic Party.

[Major Nikon]

65. You can say the same about placebos

I don't really think this means we should be promoting placebos as a reasonable alternative either, but YMMV.

[TrogL]

74. False equivalence

[Major Nikon]

77. If you're going to just throw nonsense out, I really have no interest in replying to you

It's simply a waste of my time and frankly it's annoying behavior.

Your comment was "for some people it works" and my reply was you can say the same thing about placebos which is absolutely true, at least within the realm most people refer to as reality.

There is no false equivalence. If you want to be taken seriously, you really should spend more time educating yourself on what these terms mean.

Most people who actually understand such things judge efficacy by comparing treatments to placebos. If the treatment has the same (or in this case arguably less) effectiveness than a placebo, then it's snake oil. If you promote such a treatment, then you are a snake oil salesman. That's how it works.

Simply saying 'well it works for some' is utterly meaningless and has no business in intelligent discussion.

[Major Nikon]

67. I don't remember the Democratic party ever telling someone they were going to die

...if they didn't vote in their favor.

[TrogL]

69. I also don't remember reading that in the Big Book

Lots of stupid shit gets said in meetings.

[Major Nikon]

72. Then I suggest you haven't read it very well

I had no problem finding it.

[TrogL]

86. Where?

http://www.aa.org/bbonline/

[Major Nikon]

87. ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1018&pid=238999

[TrogL]

91. I sometimes put it like this

I work as a systems analyst.

I go into a business, the place is filthy, the front of the store jammed with inventory that's out of date, will never sell. The good stuff is in the back but no price tags. The owner's friends are all hanging around drinking free coffee. The staff are in the back room trying to make some kind of sense out of the inventory.

I recommend sending the stale inventory out to auction, charging a steep fee for the coffee, getting staff in after hours to do cleaning, inventory and pricing, and getting new stock and placing it at the front of the store.

I come back a month later. The owner is whining that he's still losing money. I look at the store and nothing has changed except it's filthier. My comment - "what did you expect"?

Every time an alcoholic takes a drink, it's a spin of the bottle. Will he kill someone in a car wreck, will he kill himself by falling in front of the LRT, or will his liver finally give out. Do nothing, eventually, disaster will happen.

[Major Nikon]

95. Since we are going down the road of relaying experiences...

It's been my experience those who choose to think exclusively in terms of analogies generally lack the cognitive ability or the desire to objectively analyze the subject at hand. If you think mental health treatment works like your local thrift store, then you may not have a firm grip on the real issues involved.

Treatment that doesn't work is often worse than doing nothing, especially when it comes to addiction. AA certainly does teach that doing nothing always leads to disaster, but it's simply bullshit. More than 75% of alcoholics recover with no treatment whatsoever.

In both the 1989 National Alcohol and Drugs Survey and the 1993 Ontario Alcohol and Drug Opinion Survey, more than three-quarters of the individuals who reported recovering from alcohol problems (social and legal consequences of drinking comparable to alcohol abuse) did so without treatment (Sobell et al. 1996).

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh29-2/131-142.htm

The natural course of the disease (untreated) yields a recovery rate of 24.4% and a long term rate of 20.6%...

The data from Table 2 can be used to derive the rate of natural (i.e., untreated) recovery by multiplying the rate of recovery times the proportion never treated (1 minus the proportion ever treated). Doing so yields a natural recovery rate of 24.4 percent. That is, nearly one-quarter of PPY alcohol-dependent individuals had achieved NR or AR in the past year without benefit of treatment. The rate of stable natural recovery (lasting 5+ years) was 20.6 percent.

http://pubs.niaaa.nih.gov/publications/arh29-2/131-142.htm

Well guess what? That's even better than what AA itself claims...

14% have been sober between 5-10 years.

24% have been sober between 1-5 years.

26% have been sober less that 1 year.

http://healthpsych.psy.vanderbilt.edu/12step.htm

Remember also that the vast majority of people who come to AA do so because they want to recover. That alone sets them apart from the entire pool of alcoholics who may or may not want to recover. If anything, AA should have a far higher success rate than for all alcoholics and they have a lower one. Kinda makes you go, hmmmmm.

[TrogL]

101. My My, aren't we in a black and white mood today

"those who choose to think exclusively in terms of analogies"?

I find them useful in explaining things. I've already pointed out your logical fallacies and you're not grasping it.

Hence the rest of your post exhibiting that you STILL don't understand what a zero-sum game is.

One way of interpreting your results is "AA gets the hard-luck cases, hence has a lower success rate" or even "AA gets sent a shitload of people by the courts who have no business being there, however AA has no opinion on outside issues so can't do anything about it - hence the lower success rate".

[Major Nikon]

103. You haven't pointed out any fallacy yet have created several

I'm fine with analogies, but the ones you keep trying to pass off are simply ridiculous. I have no idea what you even meant by the last one or how you thought it was even the least bit relevant to anything said. It struck me as something you used once before and thought it was clever so you tried to get some more mileage out of it. Then you wonder why someone else isn't "grasping it". When you spew nonsense, what did you expect? As I mentioned earlier, if you just want to spew irrelevant nonsense you can argue with yourself for all I care. I'm not going to play that game.

I'm not here to convince people who refuse to be objective, but countering obvious BS is fine with me.

For all your ramblings and blog posts you have failed to offer one iota of tangible, verifiable evidence that AA is any more effective than no treatment at all. Unless of course, you count unspecified anecdotal information that you ridiculously believe trumps well respected professional opinions and empirical research which you inexplicably believe doesn't involve "real people".

I think I've done all I can do here.

Cheers!

[TrogL]

106. Then get your head out of your numbers and show up at a meeting and talk to real people

...the ones who aren't captured by your little surveys, actually read the actual literature (and have the decency to actually read my blog post instead of dismissing it as "too long&quot .

I'd put you on ignore, but somebody needs to refute your lies, projections, obfuscation and nonsense.

Frankly, i think we're a perfect example of two alcoholics exhibiting alcoholic behaviour.

[cordelia]

115. Yep.

[kwassa]

50. Your analysis of AA is really off-base.

What AA gets people do is to realize that they are not the source of all things, that something exists that is greater than themselves. Alcoholism is a disease of narcissism, of those who think that they are the center of all things, around who the world revolves.

The fearless self-examination that is part of AA is critical to recovery, and few have the courage to really do it. That is the real source of failure.

and mental health professionals do the same thing, not the opposite. They get their patients to look at the source of their problems, not to gloss over them. One can't heal if one doesn't know where they have been.

[Major Nikon]

51. Nothing you said changes the fact that AA revolves around religion

The two are intrinsically linked. One need only to read the twelve steps to verify this. If that's not good enough read the blue book, which unquestionably proves it. Call it "something exists that is greater than themselves" if it makes you feel better (even though AA specifically calls it 'god'), but it certainly doesn't change the intent.

The claim that "alcoholism is a disease of narcissism" as far as I can tell has no basis in anything remotely resembling a fact. Not all alcoholics are narcissists and not all narcissists are alcoholics.

Mental health professionals don't tell people to wallow in their failures. I have never heard of a mental health professional instruct someone to make a list of everyone they have ever harmed with instructions to make amends. YMMV.

You might be sold on AA, but even Dr. George Vaillant, a Harvard educated psychiatrist who sat on the board of AA, was their spokesperson, and who is one of AA's biggest proponents admitted that AA has no proven efficacy despite decades of studying the subject.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Natural_History_of_Alcoholism_Revisited#Alcoholics_Anonymous

[TrogL]

58. You conveniently skip the last sentence.

"The implication from all three samples was simply that many alcoholics find help through AA."

[Major Nikon]

63. I'm sure they do

What you seem to either ignore or not understand is that a far greater number of alcoholics manage to quit drinking without any treatment and if you compare the success rates of those two models they are roughly the same. What this means is that at best, AA is no more effective than doing nothing at all, and at worst AA is worse than doing nothing at all. What is alarming is that more people who choose AA wind up dying prematurely, which even Dr. George Valiant acknowledges.

[TrogL]

68. See my blog post for full answer, but you're making it a zero sum game.

By your logic...

Three people get a headache. One does nothing and it goes away on its own, eventually. One takes Aspirin. One takes Tylenol.

By your logic, you shouldn't take Aspirin or Tylenol because they aren't more effective.

[Major Nikon]

71. This is a false equivalency to the point of being comical

Both aspirin and Tylenol have proven effectiveness. AA does not.

[TrogL]

76. Could we see some real up-to-date facts?

I've never heard of Dr. George Valiant and Wikipedia is a gold-mine of mis-information.

[Major Nikon]

78. Which is why I provided the wiki link

If you had bothered to actually look at it, you'd see that wiki provided references to Valiant's own writings and you could have also figured out for yourself who Valiant is. Furthermore if you don't know who Dr George Valiant is, I don't really believe you know all that much about AA. He has been instrumental in the program for decades.

If your best retort is wiki is bullshit, I'm just not sure we have all that much to discuss.

[TrogL]

81. That book's almost 20 years out of date

And what you're saying does not match Valiant's conclusions. You're cherry-picking.

[Major Nikon]

83. AA relies on religious dogma which is at least 2,000 years out of date

So I have no problem going there if simply being "out of date" is so important to you.

I can provide all sorts of information that shows AA is bullshit. I figured providing a person who clearly has no agenda against AA (the reverse is true), who is saying AA has no proven efficacy would be of interest to you. If it's not, then so be it. That alone speaks volumes about how objective you really are.

If you have any information that proves the effectiveness of AA besides, "it works for some", then feel free to provide it. As yet you haven't even attempted. Until you do I just don't see your contribution to this discussion as all that valuable.

[TrogL]

84. WHAT religious dogma?

Show me a single mention of Christ in the Big Book.

I've addressed the rest in my blog entry.

[Major Nikon]

88. Here

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atonement_in_Christianity

I'm just not going to take the time to read your blog entry which is extremely wordy and filled with all sorts of information that is irrelevant to this point. I don't have that kind of time and I have even less desire. If you have a point to make, make it here. That's what discussion is all about.

6 of the 12 steps reference theism directly. Most of the rest indirectly reference the obvious Christian idea of atonement and reparation. The big book is full of the same. If you want to claim AA is not full of religious dogma, be my guest. Everyone has an opinion. Some are just more relevant than others.

[TrogL]

93. How in the world did you get "Atonement" out of amends?

I put a lot of work into that blog entry specifically so I wouldn't have to endlessly re-type it every time you start one of these slogfests.

To recap:

-AA is not a religion or religious. Following the guidance of Dr. Carl Jung, it encourages spirituality. You get to pick it. If it happens to be a religion, go for it. If not, that works too. If it was religious I'd have bellowed "heresy!@!!" and stormed out years ago.
-a definition of AA as a "cult" mis-defines the word to where the Democratic Party would qualify. Hell, people are encouraged to leave. I've kicked people out of meetings.
-AA makes no attempt to be for everybody. We're perfectly happy with the small percentage who find our methdology worthwhile. We have no opinion on the larger percentage who do not find our methodology worthwhile (which of course begs the question of why I'm posting here but let's not go there).

[Major Nikon]

97. I never called AA a cult

I said it was cult-like and it is, but don't reality stand in the way of a good rant.

If AA doesn't want to be associated with religion, they should remove religious references from their own materials which they publish themselves. It's that simple really.

[TrogL]

102. I still find "God" easier to say than "please read all of 'We Agnostics', plus appendix A"

Many people prefer the term "Higher Power", but I'm not about to go rewriting the Big Book.

[ismnotwasm]

82. Oh for gods sake

There is no way TO study AA. The second 'A' is there for a reason. AA does not participate in studies. People in AA can.

Don't like AA? Don't go. Get caught driving drunk, and get 'sentenced' to AA? Refuse to go to AA, or treatment and do your fucking time. It would get you off the streets.

AA is structurally an anarchy. There are entire groups devoted from everything from atheism to nudity using the 'traditions' of AA. There are no 'rules'. Not even to believe in a deity.

I work in transplant. People are required to go to community based support if they have an alcohol problem prior to being listed. This usually means AA or NA. Many of them tell me they enjoyed the meetings, but found that taking care of themselves, and their gift of life enough to provide the impetus to stop drinking. Some were already in AA, and continue long after. Some began going and continued to go after transplant.

Out of those who start drinking again, they are not considered for re-transplant at all. They die. (I'm talking liver transplant here, I work in other areas as well)

[TrogL]

85. he doesn't want people to go to AA because not going to AA works for some people

Therefore not going should work for everybody.

[ismnotwasm]

89. Generally

I don't try to defend AA especially on line. But this is ridiculous.

Many non-AA, and a few AA people know just enough about it to fuck it up, get a completely wrong perspective on what it is and what it isn't, what it does and doesn't do.

In my field, you have a chance at life. If drugs or alcohol have been an issue, we, too 'sentence' people to community based support. We prefer the 12 step programs.

This is based on sound psychological principles, (if the 'spiritual' ones offend so much) It's very easy to explain, but apparently much harder to accept.

I'm also under the impression that the AA haters don't understand why the early AAers stressed the spiritual so much. They were roll in the in their own puke in the gutter, sentenced to sanitariums, last gasp drunks, not childish "my spouse left me I got dUI's I lost my job woe is me" types. If all that happened to someone and they were repeatedly told it was related to drinking , you'd think they'd get a clue right? Well they don't.

The costs of alcoholism is astronomical in every way you can thing of. AA helps enough people that my field thinks its worth it.

The sad truth is that MOST people with a drinking problem don't get the help they need. Up to 50% of admission for gastrointestinal ER visit are alcohol related for instance.

Beating on the high chair with a wooden spoon about the 'G' word is both silly and sad.

[TrogL]

90. +1

[Major Nikon]

92. Hogwash

AA has been surveying it's members since 1968 and the reason they do so was specifically to produce data which could be studied.
http://www.aa.org/catalog.cfm?origpage=75&product=65

Numerous independent studies have been conducted on AA and twelve-step programs in general. In 2006, Cochrane Library conducted a meta analysis of various studies and concluded...

"No experimental studies unequivocally demonstrated the effectiveness of AA or TSF [12-step facilitation] approaches for reducing alcohol dependence or problems."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/08/06/AR2010080602660.html

There's a wealth of information about AA which most certainly can and is used for study regardless of what you think.

If someone want's to sing the praises of AA on DU, then I most certainly can offer a dissenting opinion. That's what discussion is. If your idea of discussion is a love it or leave it echo chamber(and given your favorite group here I have to believe it is), then just as you recommended I suggest you go somewhere else.

I never claimed there was a rule that AA requires belief in a deity, but they sure as hell do tell members they are going to die if they don't. That was my claim, not what you pretended I claimed. Putting words in the mouth of someone and then arguing from that position is called strawman rhetoric, AKA bullshit. It's a very duplicitous tool of rhetoric which is childishly simple to identify. I suggest you save those tactics for someone who is weak minded enough to fall for them.

I'm well aware people are being compelled to go to AA, even though it has no proven effectiveness. That's the beef I have with it.

[TrogL]

94. Well, you deal with studies and "should"

We deal with real people and "actually".

I've seen real people sober up in AA who were unable to anywhere else. Call it "anecdotal" but that pretty much settles it for me.

[Major Nikon]

96. Since studies never involve "real people" you might have something there

[ismnotwasm]

99. AA does a completely voluntary survey

Just did one in fact. Hardly scientific. In any reasonable scientific study, you need a certain structure including a control group. Given the structure OF AA, it's impossible to set up a reasonable study, and AA itself will not participate

You end up with very small study groups with poor controls (which can indicate bias). You'll also end up with a lot of anecdotal stories-- also not scientific.

It's perfectly fine not to like AA; its also It's perfectly fine to be an atheist in AA.

What you're talking about is peer pressure based on the literature of AA itself. That certainly does happen, and it's unfortunate.

The thing to realize is the the reason AA backed off early in its history over its faith requirements, is because the early members realized it wouldn't work

I don't care who likes or doesn't like AA.

As I said I usually don't get involved in these discussions. AA needs no defense really. By its own admission, it refuses to get involved in outside issues. Personal opinions about AA itself are considered a outside issue.

People who are court ordered can choose not to go, just as people with a substance abuse history can refuse not to comply with the requirements needed to be listed for a liver transplant. I think there are other community based support type sobriety programs, they just don't seem as accessible. (As I said, structurally, AA is like an anarchy. So anyone can start a group)They will experience different outcomes is all.

[Major Nikon]

104. Wow! You managed to refute numerous highly respected studies by the foremost experts on addiction

Or not.

[kwassa]

107. The National Institute of Health disagrees with you, Major Nikon.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC2746426/

Criterion 1, strength of association

How large is the relationship between AA exposure and abstinence? As shown in Figure 1, which draws on a longitudinal study of male inpatients in Veterans Administration programs, rates of abstinence are about twice as high for those who attended a 12-step group such as AA following treatment. One-year follow-ups considered 12-step group attendance and abstinence from alcohol and drugs, while the 18-month results reported AA attendance and alcohol abstinence.


.............................................................

Criterion 2, dose response relationship

Do higher levels of AA attendance or involvement relate to higher levels of abstinence? There is evidence of a dose response relationship for number of 12-step meetings (Figure 2a), frequency of 12-step meetings (Figure 2b), and duration of AA meeting attendance (Figure 2c). Again studying male residential patients in the VA system, and considering AA meeting attendance for the 90 days prior to the 1-year follow-up, the dose response curve looks almost linear (Figure 2a), with more 12-step meetings associated with higher rates of alcohol and drug abstinence [4]. In a smaller outpatient sample, over 70% of those attending 12-step groups weekly for the 6 months prior to the 2-year follow-up were alcohol abstainers, while alcohol abstinence rates among those attending less than weekly were the same as those who never attended during that period

................................................................................................

About 50% of those who had attended AA/12-step meetings only were abstinent at 1 year [15] and at 3 and 8 years [19]; and about one-fifth of those who did not attend AA/12-step meetings or treatment were abstinent at the parallel follow-up interviews. Another study of the general population [20] found that individuals with lifetime alcohol dependence who went to 12-step meetings but no formal treatment were more likely to be abstinent than those who did nothing (not shown).

.................................................................................................

What, then, is the scorecard for AA effectiveness in terms of specificity? Among the rigorous experimental studies, there were two positive findings for AA effectiveness, one null finding, and one negative finding. Among those that statistically addressed selection bias, there were two contradictory findings, and two studies that reported significant effects for AA after adjusting for potential confounders such as motivation to change. Readers must judge for themselves whether their interpretation of these results, on balance, supports a recommendation that there is no experimental evidence of AA effectiveness (as put forward by the Cochrane review). As for the scorecard for the other criteria, the evidence for AA effectiveness is quite strong: Rates of abstinence are about twice as high among those who attend AA (criteria 1, magnitude); higher levels of attendance are related to higher rates of abstinence (criteria 2, dose-response); these relationships are found for different samples and follow-up periods (criteria 3, consistency); prior AA attendance is predictive of subsequent abstinence (criteria 4, temporal); and mechanisms of action predicted by theories of behavior change are evident at AA meetings and through the AA steps and fellowship (criteria 6, plausibility).

[Major Nikon]

108. No it doesn't

This study measures those who stay in AA and attend meetings. 95% of AA attendees drop out before the first year. Those people aren't even counted because they didn't stay in AA. Comparing people who stayed in AA with people who got no treatment at all is a joke. It's cherry picking the people who are most likely to recover and comparing them with the whole subset of people who got no treatment. The results are meaningless in comparison to people who got no treatment at all. This study also only measures abstinence, which is naturally going to favor AA which stresses abstinence above all else (which is why you get more binge drinking, more arrests, and more deaths with people who go to AA).

This isn't the first bogus study on the subject. Other so-called studies have skewed the results in AA's favor as well. The Cochrane meta-analysis cut through all that bullshit and compared apples to apples and found no effectiveness for AA. Nothing in this so-called study changes that.

[TrogL]

109. more binge drinking, more arrests, and more deaths with people who go to AA

Got a link or reference for that?

[Major Nikon]

112. Yes

First you accuse me of slander, without specifying your charge. Then you slander me by accusing me of being an alcoholic when I never have been and by claiming I don't want alcoholics treated. You claim your own anecdotal information trumps empirical evidence. You just make stuff up when it suits you (e.g. alcoholism is a "disease of narcissism&quot . You claim my references are out of date yet you refuse to offer any of your own. You claim AA isn't religious and doesn't apply religious dogma when their own material is full of it. You fill your posts with false equivalency fallacies which are completely ridiculous, then accuse me of using those same fallacies with no evidence whatsoever.

I already told you, I'm done with you. Any reasonably intelligent person can figure out why. I've been far more patient with you than I ever should have.

Here's your links to references. Good luck.

http://www.google.com/search?q=alcoholics+anonymous+"binge+drinking"

http://www.google.com/search?q=alcoholics+anonymous+arrests

http://www.google.com/search?q=alcoholics+anonymous+deaths

Cheers!

[TrogL]

121. And yet you keep posting your nonsense

This is the best one yet. I didn't say anything you accuse me of saying (links?), my blog entry explains at great length how not to be religious in AA if you choose not to be, your first two links are completely off-topic except for a link to the "orange site where you likely get most of your material and the third included a government site that proves AA membership improves the outcome of liver patients.

Well done indeed

[kwassa]

113. No, the Cochrane meta-analysis fullfills your anti-AA prejudice

You choose only the evidence you want to see, speaking of cherry-picking.

That is evident throughout this thread. Who should I believe, Major Nikon, or the National Institute of Health?

Why, I think I will go with NIH.

[Major Nikon]

114. You actually think a listing on the National Library of Medicine qualifies as an endorsement by NIH?

Brilliant!

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19139986



Next you'll tell me that congress approves of every book listed by the Library of Congress.

[elleng]

52. Excuse me for interrupting you here, not disagreeing with everything you say,

but alcoholism is genetic disorder; it may RESULT in SOME thinking they are the center of all things, but their physiology forces them to disregard all but where the next drink will come from.

Great force of will, provided from self-knowledge, that they have no 'power' over the disorder, and/or from a group of similarly situated individuals, can and has helped.

[TrogL]

56. I see you've started up your slander again

The "religious nut" behind some of the concepts of the Twelve Steps is Dr. Carl Jung.

[Major Nikon]

66. If it's slander then prove me wrong

I invite and encourage the attempt.

[TrogL]

73. You're the one making the outrageous statements, prove them right

[Major Nikon]

79. I have

I've provided numerous references and cites. Saying wiki is bullshit just doesn't qualify as claiming otherwise. Furthermore I don't feel any obligation to prove AA isn't effective. It should be their job to prove it is. So far (and it's been over 70 years) they have utterly failed in that regard.

[TrogL]

80. That's because you have an odd definition of "effective"

You demand that AA have a 100% success rate. That's impossible.

[TrogL]

55. That reminds me - you never did respond to my blog post last time this came up

http://religious-right-revealed.blogspot.ca/2012/08/alcoholics-anonymous-revealed.html

[Major Nikon]

62. This is the first I'm seeing it

But on a cursory review it appears to echo what I've been saying. AA is really nothing more than Christianity's answer to addiction just as they have an answer for most mental health issues which is basically to reject science in favor of hocus pocus. The problem is they are inevitably wrong and they wind up doing more harm than good.

[cordelia]

116. You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.

None.

[Major Nikon]

118. As far as drive-by's go, yours suck more than most

Just sayin'

[cliffordu]

59. Well said.

[Rhiannon12866]

17. Withdrawl is hell, don't think most can handle it without medication.

I'd suggest hospitalization, since it's best handled by professionals. Also, detox is one thing, rehab is another. Kudos to you for caring and asking and for thinking of the poor pup, too.

[hedgehog]

19. My father's family had a lot of drunks ( he won't use the term alcoholic)

I think your first instinct is correct - better to give him a case of beer than have him go into withdrawal or poison himself with sterno. That should get you though this week. Next week, when you have time, give Al-anon a call and see what they have to say.

You're right - it's heartbreaking to see someone hooked on alcohol. In the old days, physicians used to hook men on morphine to break them from drinking!

[Dyedinthewoolliberal]

26. If he is cut off completely, at this point, it could kill him.

That seems to be counter intuitive but its true. Sounds like he need a trip to rehab. In the old days, they (local AA's ) would keep him company and wean him from alcohol so he comes off it safely.
Nowadays, they can give you drugs to do the same thing and then start drying him out.
Of course, simply removing the alcohol isn't the answer here. He needs to change his outlook on life. That's usually where some type of recovery program comes into play.
I'm coming up on 9 years without a drink so I can relate a little to him.......
Good Luck

[nadine_mn]

34. congrats on your sobriety

thank you for your prospective, it is much appreciated. My uncle's major support system was my grandparents and with them gone I fear that he has really lost any reason to change.

I wish I knew how to talk to him about this - but without any other family support I think he would just get mad and defensive and possibly shut down even more.

[Denninmi]

28. Actually, you have a legal option as well.

You could petition the probate court in the county of jurisdiction to have him declared a legally incapacitated individual and be appointed guardian and conservator, taking control of his healthcare and finances. Every state follows the model probate code, developed by the ABA, more or less with minor variations. The probate laws allow this procedure for "substance abuse" when the condition is serious enough that the proposed ward cannot attend to basic needs such as proper food, hygiene, shelter.

If the situation has deteriorated to the point he is a danger to himself through inability to perform the functions of daily life, you should seriously consider this option. With a little research, this could be done without the use of an attorney in many states if finances are an issue.

[nadine_mn]

33. I had not thought of that - thank you for reminding me

I truly hope he doesn't deteriorate to that point, but realistically that is probably in the near future.

[Kaleva]

49. The way you describe him, it sounds like he's already past that point.

[ismnotwasm]

36. You mean to keep him from withdrawal? No

To make for a pleasanter holiday, bringing a reasonable amount, what you would bring to a normal person and nomal situation when it comes to alcohol--sure.




Withdrawal is a extremely serious condition and if you suspect he is in alcohol withdrawal take him to a hospital. Call paramedics if you have to, but don't try to 'treat it'

[suninvited]

39. self destruction

can't be explained, but it is so common.

Good luck.

Intervention and treatment would be the best course of action, if he has insurance. If not, not buying him alcohol might not be the wisest course of action. Of course, if you provide him with everything else, he can probably figure out how to get alcohol on his own. I assume he had some kind of income.

[Kennah]

41. I just know that MFM has some experience here. n/t

[nadine_mn]

48. I just want to thank everyone for their thoughts and advice

I have been really feeling alone with the whole situation and just being able to come here and get some feedback and advice has really helped me.

Thank you!

[Ken Burch]

100. Check with a doctor...one who specializes in treating people like your uncle.

That's probably the only way to be sure.