Game of Thrones, because politics is too painful right now

[Duer 157099]

I'm rereading the second book, Clash of Kings, because it seemed to me that this season the HBO series strayed significantly from the book and I'm trying to see by how much.

The first season, the series seemed so much bigger than the book, or at least just as big. But this season, it seemed to shrink. The book, CoK, was pretty expansive and yet the series seemed to get a narrower focus. The Daenerys storyline, for example. There was so much more to her story in the book than in the series, and they squished it all together into that scene in the House of the Undying. Same with Arya for that matter! Her story was one of the most engaging in the book, and yet she was barely a footnote in the series this season.

Has anyone else, who has read the books, noticed this too?

[NewJeffCT]

1. I agree on some of your points (spoiler warning)

I was disappointed in the House of the Undying. However, a lot of the visions that Dany had there at the HOTU were things that were kind of obscure and/or subtle when you read them. But, if you saw it visually, I think you risk revealing too much info. I originally read ACOK when it first came out. Then, read ASOS when it first came out two years later - I was totally blindsided by [font color=white]The Red Wedding[/font] because I had forgotten all the obscure details of Dany's visions in the two years in between. In retrospect, it's pretty clear what it means.

I think they also shifted a few things around on the show for money reasons - no Strong Belwas and his aged squire Arstan Whitebeard - no Brave Companions (yet) - no Jojen and Meera Reed and Big & Little Walder - and also to not confuse non book readers with a cast of thousands.

I'm disappointed there was no Reek, but am also not sure how that would have played out visually on TV vs in print.

The change I liked the least was one of timing. In the book, Catelyn releases Jamie after she finds out Bran & Rickon are "dead" - so, it's more understandable, as Arya and Sansa are two of her three remaining children. On the show, she doesn't know that they're "dead" when she releases Jamie. They also made it more obvious that they were alive on the show - the first time reader doesn't find out until that very last chapter in the book.

The big change for Arya was that she was Roose Bolton's cupbearer in the book because Bolton & the Companions took Harrenhal from Ser Amory Lorch. Tywin was a distant figure in the book, not a father figure for her... plus, we miss her internal monologue on the show. Didn't she name Jaqen as her third name because her father did his own killing once he pronounced the sentence?

[Duer 157099]

2. Great points

I initially had to question my recollection of CoK when I saw Arya serving Tywin at Harrenhall. I was like, whaaa?

And yes, too many missing characters. Jojen and Meera are imho pretty important as spiritual guides for Bran. And yes, the Brave Companions and the Red whatever-his-name-was. Lots of major characters just vanished.

Instead we get to see Sansa's sad face all the time. WTF? And Cersei's role seemed disproportionately enlarged.

Oh well, I guess if they had done it right, CoK would have taken 4 seasons at least.

[NewJeffCT]

6. The Red Viper doesn't show up

until about 1/3 of the way through A Storm of Swords (I'm re-reading that one now... just finished Joffrey's wedding feast... )

[Duer 157099]

3. Oh, and speaking of Jaqen

I'm not sure why she named him. How could she have guessed he would make her take it back and then she'd have negotiating power? He could have just as easily "killed" himself and then where would she be?

Do you think Jaqen is/was Serio?

[NewJeffCT]

5. No, I don't think Jaqen = Syrio

though, you can't trust GRRM in terms of any deaths that happen "off camera" like Syrio.

Not sure why Arya named him on the show, other than childish frustration over him not being able to kill Tywin immediately?

[Baitball Blogger]

7. You don't think she was betting that she could get him to help her

escape in return for his life?

[Bolo Boffin]

14. Jojen and Meera are going to be in Season 3

They've just postponed the meeting there. I saw a page which talked about the main roles that will be cast in Season 3.

http://insidetv.ew.com/2012/05/29/game-of-throne-season-3-cast/

– Mance Rayder: We’ve heard about him all season. A former member of the Night’s Watch who became the “King Beyond the Wall,” the leader of the Wildlings.

– Daario Naharis: A confident and seductive warrior.

– Jojen Reed; Meera Reed: A teenage brother and sister duo with special insights.

– Edmure Tully: A brash young member of the Tully family.

– Ser Brynden Tully (The Blackfish): Catelyn Stark’s uncle.

– Lady Selyse Florent: Stannis Baratheon’s wife.

– Shireen: Stannis’ daughter.

– Olenna Redwyne (The Queen of Thorns): Margaery Tyrell’s sharp-witted grandmother.

– Beric Dondarrion: A skilled knight who is the leader of the outlaw group Brotherhood Without Banners.

– Thoros of Myr: A red priest who follows the same religion as Melisandre.

– Tormund Giantsbane: A Wildling raider.

And there could be more, according to the article. And Strong Belwas should be on that list. And Beric Dondarrion was already cast, I'd thought. He was in Joffery's tourney in the first episode. ETA: We'd already seen Selyse, too, I'd thought, out on the beach when they were burning the Seven.

[NewJeffCT]

16. They're also casting Vargo Hoat

So, I assume the Brave Companions will make it in there somehow - though, the audition I saw online did not have his lisp, but was otherwise spot on. I'll miss him saying "Kingthlayer", though.

[Bolo Boffin]

17. The logistics of dealing with all these people must be nuts.

And I was looking at a synopsis of Storm of Swords over at the Wiki of Ice and Fire, and it seemed to me that they could tell all that story in ten episodes! They've already launched into the third book with some of the storylines, Brienne and Jaime notably. They aren't supposed to make it to King's Landing before a lot of wildfire burns through Westeros. So maybe they are going to get a seriously different storyline from the books, or else we are going to watch them walk every step of the way through two seasons!

[NewJeffCT]

22. A Storm of Swords is supposed to be spread out

over two seasons. You can't really do it justice in 10 episodes, as so much is going on:

spoilers below:
[font color=white]
The attack on the Fist of the First Men
The retreat of the Night's Watch and the murder of the Old Bear
Sam slaying one of the Others
Sam & Gilly finding their way through the wall with the help of Coldhands
Jon and Ygritte, meeting Mance Rayder, Tormund, etc.
Jon and the wildings going over the wall, then Jon escaping them
Jon's return to Castle Black and the wilding attack there
the big wilding attack on the wall
Janos Slynt arriving at the wall
Bran journeying north - meeting up with Jojen & Meera
Bran meeting with Sam at the tunnel
Stannis arriving at the wall
Jamie & Brienne being captured by the Brave Companions
Jamie losing his hand
Jamie gaining respect for Brienne
Arya running into the Brotherhood without Banners
The Hound's trial by combat with Lord Beric
The Hound & Arya leaving together
The Hound & Arya encountering of The Mountain's Men, Arya leaving the injured Hound and starting her trip to Braavos.
The Red Wedding
The Purple Wedding
Intro of The Queen of Thorns
Sansa escaping King's Landing
Tyrion and his trial by combat
If I don't have The Red Viper calling out "Elia of Dorne! You Raped Her! You Murdered Her! You killed her children!" I'm not going to be a happy camper.
The intro of The Red Viper and the Dornish before that
Tyrion and Jamie
Tyrion and his father
Jamie returning to King's Landing, meeting with Cersei
Tyrion and his final confrontation with Tywin
Not to mention Dany and her conquest of Astapor, Yunkai & Meereen, all that's going on with Belwas, Arstan, Jorah, etc. The Unsullied, Daario, Brown Ben Plumm, etc.
and, I'm sure I'm forgetting a few big things.
[/font]

[cemaphonic]

4. I'd agree that in general the show suffered a bit from the story expansion

The books do the same thing from book 1 to 2 - I think that kind of structure just works better as a novel.

But I had almost exactly the opposite feeling about the Qarth sections. In the book, Daenerys spins her wheels for chapters without much happening other than some nice world-building. Coming up with an actual plot arc, even if it wasn't all that original, helped her scenes a lot. And yeah, the book version of the House of the Undying was cool, but just would not have worked as written.

And Arya as a footnote? My impression is that just about everyone, book-readers and unspoiled alike absolutely loved the Arya scenes. Her character progression isn't quite as far along as it is by the end of the book, but Storm of Swords is going to be 2 seasons. They have plenty of time to get her where she needs to be.

[Duer 157099]

8. Arya was my favorite character in CoK

but I thought her role was given short shrift this season, even though, clearly, they did focus on her a little bit. I just wish it had been more.

[Duer 157099]

9. OK new question to ponder (spoilers)

I just reread the portion in CoK with Dany in the House of the Undying, and it's pretty clear to me that there is a connection between her family and the Others. Anyone want to speculate about that? It has to do with the title, a Song of Ice and Fire. And in the visions and prophecy in the HotU, there were undead beings with blue eyes being described.

Also, what does the 3-headed dragon symbolize?

[cemaphonic]

10. Some speculative answers

I think that there isn't so much a direct connection between her and the Others, except that her dragons/Valyrian lineage/fire affinity is an obvious counterbalance to the threat of the others. As for the "Song of Ice and Fire" bit, that vision is clearly (spoiler) [font color = white] Rhaegar, and he's probably referring to the yet-to-be-conceived Jon Snow, who (speculatively) combines a Stark (Ice) and Targaryen(Fire) lineage.[/font]

As for the 3-headed dragon, my best guess is that it refers to (don't swipe this if you haven't read Book 5) [font color=white]the three younger Targs - Jon, Dany and Aegon.[/font]

[NewJeffCT]

12. so, you think

spoilers [font color=white]Aegon is really a Targaryen? I thought for sure he was the Mummer's Dragon that Quaithe referred to, since he was supposedly switched by Varys. Not sure who the third head is after Dany and Jon - possibly Tyrion, as he does have the saddle design background. I had originally thought it was Bran because he was told he would not walk, but he would fly...[/font]

[cemaphonic]

13. There's good arguments either way

though to be honest, I think he's a plot contrivance that the series really could have done without, whether genuine or not. And as for the 3-headed dragon, I really hope that that dragonrider notion that you are alluding to isn't where the story is headed. Plus, I don't really care for those sorts of long-term prophecies as a stylistic device.

[NewJeffCT]

15. some prophecy has not worked out

Dany's child was supposed to be the Stallion that Mounts the World...

[Bolo Boffin]

19. A stallion is something ridden.

That prophecy seems on track to me.

[Bolo Boffin]

18. I think

Last edited Fri Jun 8, 2012, 04:55 PM - Edit history (2)

the third head is...

I don't know how to do the white letters. I better go figure it out before I say. But it has to do with Ned's promise. Is that enough for you to get it?

ETA: White letters!

I think that [font color=white]Jon Snow is the third head. His real name would be Aegon Sand or Aegon Waters, depending on if he was born in Dorne or King's Landing. He's the son of Rhaegar and Lyanna Stark. And Lyanna made Ned promise to protect Jon. The only way he knew to do it was to claim Jon as his own bastard.[/font]

Thanks, Chan790!

[Chan790]

20. How to do white letters.

replace"{" with square brackets.

{font color=white}Whited out text goes here.{/font}

[font color="white"]I was hiding, dammit.[/font]

[lunatica]

21. Thanks

[font color=white]thanks![/font]

[Sea-Dog]

11. let the soft porn soothe you

[white_wolf]

23. I hate some of the changes they've made.

Jeyene being a foreign and not a Westros noble is something I don't understand. Oh,and one of my biggest petpeves is the change of Tyrion's gift to Joffery. In the book Tyrion gave him a book on the history of the Targaryen kings to try and show him the error of his ways, of course it didn't work. In the show, he gave him hookers, which I can only assume was done to show more sex. It just annoys me. I don't want them censoring nudity in this show, since that is a part of the series, but there is no reason to add more, especially when it takes away from the overall story.

[XemaSab]

24. IIRC

In the books Tyrion speculates about whether to get him hookers.

In the show, the hookers are there mostly to show Joffrey as a crazy sadist.

[NewJeffCT]

25. I thought the book on history

was a gift to Joff at his wedding to Margaery (in a Storm of Swords) - spoilers: [font color=white]which Joff promptly chopped up with his new sword. Tyrion then remarked how it was only one of four copies in the world of the book.[/font]