So I'm about halfway through Guardians o' The Galaxy part deux

[Orrex]

Kind of can't stand it, for all and exactly the reasons that I expected.

1. Hate the raccoon
2. Hate baby Groot
3. Hate the soundtrack
4. Hate the tone

As a standalone pair of films I guess that Guardians is ok, if you're looking for a way to waste a few hours. It's about on par with The Ice Pirates or most of the 80s B-movie scifi genre.

But it's part of the Marvel Cinematic Universe, and in that regard it's an utter failure. Every single member of the team is more powerful than every other character we've seen so far, with the possible exception of The Hulk.

Every character can make leaps that would leave Spider-Man in the dust. Every character can survive falls, impacts and extremes that would turn Thor into a pulpy smear. They're all weapons experts far beyond Hawkeye's marksmanship. Every piece of technology is far more advanced than anything in Wakanda.

If they had their own universe to themselves, then we could ignore them and be done with it, but next year we'll see that they're part of the same happy cash cow, and the fragile conceit of the Marvel Cinematic Universe will disintegrate.

I understand that the two films have made a billion trillion dollars, and Thor Three, cranked out by the same formula, has done the same. Hell, for a while people convinced themselves that The Ewoks were great, too.


Glad that I waited for Netflix.

[CentralMass]

1. I enjoyed the movie. It was humorous and entertaining. Thats all it was meant to be

[Orrex]

10. Again, if it were self-contained, no problem.

But it's part of the MCU, and it doesn't work in that universe, no matter how many billions it rakes in.

[Blue_Adept]

18. Yet it does work

Because we have those same kinds of "imbalances" in the comics as well.

I do think your comparisons are off for a range of reasons, but nothing anyone will say will really change that for you. It's not something you're going to enjoy, which is fine. Hopefully you'll see how these things blend next year with Infinity War when they're all together.

[Orrex]

20. I would argue that we can't excuse the films on the basis of the comics

If it were that simple, we'd only have to say "Well, why don't they call Molecule Man? He can destroy Thanos and the Infinity Gems and be done with the whole damn thing before the opening credits are over." The comic universe is too vast and too famously inconsistent to justify on-screen inconsistencies in the MCU.

I do think your comparisons are off for a range of reasons,

I'd like to hear those reasons, honestly, because so far the strongest rebuttal I've seen is "Yeah, well I still like them."

You're right that I'm not going to like them, but I'm not simply a hipster contrarian. I can support my objections with on-screen information, and I have done so. Others can look past these inconsistencies and enjoy the films, so good for them.

I've liked all of the MCU films so far except Guardians 1 & 2, though I must admit that Thor 1 & 2 didn't particularly thrill me. I haven't yet seen Thor 3, but from everything I've heard I'm likely to dislike it for the same reason that I dislike Guardians.

[FSogol]

22. Nerd Mode On: Molecule Man couldn't destroy Thanos because he can't affect organic molecules due

to self-doubt and fear. Nerd Mode Off.

[Orrex]

25. Is that still correct?

I know that was his deal for a while, but I thought that he overcame that a long time ago?

Or did he relapse?

Hell, if Owen's busy, then they can call Franklin Richards. Or any of the other dime-a-dozen omnipotent characters on Earth-616...

[FSogol]

34. Who knows? Marvel Comics comic books are a big mess these days.

They plan on going back to basics, focusing on storytelling and avoiding giant crossovers.

They got rid of Axel Alonso and Bendis .(Huzzah!)

I'm surprised Disney waited so long.

[Orrex]

36. LOL. I'm way out of date on this stuff.

I've sort of kept tabs, but for about 20 years I've comics only sporadically.

[PubliusEnigma]

2. Got any tape?

[TeapotInATempest]

26. I love that part!

Right before he asked for tape, I said "Put some tape over it!".

[blimablam]

3. Think you're pretty much alone in that view of the movie.

[Orrex]

9. Yeah, and people liked Tim Burton's Batman, too

And I knew then that it was a big, steaming turd that we were all fawning over in a collective, willing hallucination.

Let me count the ways.

More recently, I rightly (and immediately) identified Jurassic World as garbage, yet it still made a zillion dollars, so I guess I'm all alone in my view of that movie, too.


I'm not just being a curmudgeon about this. I can detail why I don't like GotG, and I have done so, and the only response I've gotten is "yeah, well I still like it."

[blimablam]

12. Ha. Touch. :)

[shanny]

4. OT but about those Ewoks:

I just finished up with a reviewing of all Star Wars films to date...and am amazed at how godawfully bad they are.

Well OK IV was big fun, Empire was showing promise--right up until the I-am-your-father moment; I watched the thoroughly Hollywood-ed Return once when it came out and was disgusted (Ewoks, the return of the Death Star and a redeemed Vader? Puhleeze). So much so that I waited for the video of Phantom Menace, saw two of my favorite actors acting like blocks of wood and quit half an hour in. Never bothered--until now--with II and III which were, as expected, pukeworthy.

Force Awakens wasn't awful (other than being a remake), Rogue I was OK--so I guess I'll give the next one a look.

That's cause I haven't been to a movie lately and could use some mindless entertainment. But srsly, how has this franchise survived?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

5. GOTG II is on Netflix now?

[Gidney N Cloyd]

7. Just confirmed. Surprised they have it so soon.

I think it's the only MCU movie I haven't seen.

[procon]

6. Its just a comic book, not great literature.

I just watched it on Netflix too, and it was a brainless diversion from the churn and angst of current events. Chill, it is what it is, nothing more.

[Orrex]

8. With respect, that's not a useful response

Last edited Mon Dec 11, 2017, 10:56 AM - Edit history (1)

I wasn't expecting a transformational experience in this movie, but I was looking for something consistent with the universe in which it takes place.

The MCU in the aggregate has established a baseline of reality separate from our own but (mostly) internally consistent. Then along come The Guardians, and the whole thing goes out the window.


It would be like seeing a realistic WWII movie, and then all of a sudden someone zips over Normandy on a speeder bike with a laser shotgun. Some might find it enjoyable, but it compromises the universe already established.

[NightWatcher]

11. I got super baked last night and started watching it.

The intro was cool but I fell asleep when Snake Plissken showed up.

[sakabatou]

13. Not as good as the first film imo

[Thor_MN]

14. About #1.

I can't stand Bradley Cooper. Way too smarmy and one always, always knows that he is "Acting!!" Rocket Racoon is about the only character I can tolerate of his, as his normal smirking expression really doesn't translate to the CGI racoon.

I liked the first one, haven't seen the second, although I bought the DVD when it came out. Liked the soundtrack of the first one.

For some reason, I like Drax. His persistent smile reminds me of one of my high school friends that died a couple years back...

[Orrex]

15. I will concede that Drax is pretty entertaining

The actor plays him very well, getting close to "too much" but holding back just enough to keep him funny and oddly charming without going too far.

Much as I, along with everyone else in the universe, like Chris Pratt, the forced and endless one-liners from him and the rest get old really quickly.

[Orrex]

16. And another thing

Peter Quill has been off-Earth and out of contact with Earth culture for 30+ years.

How do we know this? Because at the end, when the anonymous crew guy hands him a piece of insultingly foregrounded product placement, Pete has no idea what it is and is amazed that it holds "300 songs."

So we know either that he can't imagine something so small holding so much music, or he's stunned to have access to so much music.

It can't possibly be the former, because everything Pete touches in this two-hour string of vapid pop culture references is centuries more advanced than an MP3 player.

Therefore it's the latter, meaning that he's had no other access to Earth music in three decades.

We must therefore conclude that he hasn't had Earth internet access, because he would sought out music at his first opportunity.

So, lacking access to Earth culture in general and to the internet in particular, how does our intrepid everyman demigod know the internet-born term "trash panda?"

I'm sure that some fan of these soon-to-be-dated films will insist that they've used that term for years, so ol' Pete could easily have heard it before his abduction. Well, the meme apparently originated on Reddit just two years ago, so if you have an earlier documented reference I'd like to see it.

It would be like a character in a film about The Great Depression saying "Game over, man! Game over!" It would be jarring, because there's no what that the character could reasonably have access to that reference, so it's conspicuous use must be justified in some way.

[FSogol]

17. Careful Orrex, you seem to be falling into Batman/Joker fanboy territory.

Have you weighed in on Jared Leto as Joker (seriously awful) or Suicide Squad (worst superhero movie ever and yes that includes Halle Berry's Catwoman)

The GOTG movies are my wife's favorite Marvel Movies (along with Thor). As a comic book fan, I am more familiar with the Vance Astro, Starhawk, Yondu, Charlie 27, Nikki, Aleta Guardians. The Drax and Gamora characters come out of the Adam Warlock stories and Rocket appeared in some Hulk stories. It is hard for me to wrap my mind around them as Guardians of the Galaxy. That said, enjoyable diverting films.

[Orrex]

19. LOL. Well...

The difference IMO is that I'm not invoking off-screen material to bolster my complaints; I'm simply assessing the films within the parameters that they've established. I'm not, for instance, losing my mind over the "fact" that Tony Stark didn't "really" create Ultron, or the "fact" that the Infinity Stones are "really" supposed to be called Infinity Gems. I don't care that Thanos is the "wrong" color, either. We see which "facts" are established in the films, so we go from there.

This is especially true because the MCU, more than any other film universe to date, is intended to be internally consistent.

So the reason that the inconsistencies bug me so much is because I want them not to be inconsistencies. I want them to "work" within the framework that the 100 or so MCU films have established, and when they still don't work, it's a problem.


As for Suicide Squad, I'd call it pretty god-awful. I only got through it by sheer force of will, and it still took four tries. It's like a mashup of poorly filmed music videos slapped together by a bored communications major between lectures.

[FSogol]

21. LOL, ok, try this: 1. if some characters are off in deep space, they have access to

technology greater than what exists on the Marvel Universe earth (which has tech much greater than our real earth).

2. That tech (which could be nano-based or bio-mechanical introduced as part of their diet) gives them better abilities to shrug off damage, leap higher, move quicker, etc. The characters grew up with that tech and more. They would have to understand it or would be disadvantaged in their culture. That includes piloting starships, using strange weapons, etc. That's a comic book convention; superheros typical know how to pilot anything from helicopter to jet to submarine, spaceship, train, etc. They know how to shut down power stations, use any communication device, etc.

3. Lower gravity could also be an explanation of the big leaps that bother you.

4. It is a comic book convention that some hero exceeds his physical and mental limits to succeed. It happens in every comic, not sure why it only bothers you in GOTG.

5. While Starlord hadn't been back to earth, Yondu had been. It is possible others had been there too. Any slang could have come into vogue via others' connections to earth and just filtered down. It is possible that the slang originated elsewhere. You didn't complain that all alien races speak English since that is a convention to aid in understanding. Likewise, slang could be the translators substitution of something we wouldn't have understood.

6. Not sure why you think adding the GOG will be a big problem for the MCU (and next Avengers movie). With 30+ characters, few people will have big parts. Drax will have no problem standing alongside the Hulk and Chris Pratt can crack jokes with Spider-Man. I fail to see how it is problematic.

I think your main problem with it is the tone and music. The tone and music are allowing the film to extend past the fanboy contingent into mainstream cinema audiences and be more accessible to a wider range of moviegoers. That's a lesson that DC comics hasn't learned yet.

PS: You agreed on Suicide Squad, but are strangely silent on Jared Leto's joker.

[Blue_Adept]

23. Mostly this is what I would have written above

So, thank you for writing it. I've been reading comics since the late 70's and I've had these discussions so many times within the comics narrative and much of it translates into the films as well.

There'll always be issues and that will bother some more than others in a big way and I get it. Most can just work the suspension of disbelief to go along with it all and enjoy it.

[Orrex]

28. Suspension of disbelief can't be a get-out-of-jail-free card, though

That's too dismissive, like saying "It's only a movie" or "I'm not expecting high art."

When I buy a ticket for a comic book movie, I'm pretty much explicitly suspending my disbelief. But there are limits, and there are rules. I can accept that a gamma-irradiated human can turn into the Hulk, rather than dying outright. I can accept that Pym particles can shrink/grow a human being. I can accept that an apparently unremarkable guy with a bow can fight alongside a literal god.

But I couldn't, for instance, accept it if the Black Widow kills a guy on Mars by throwing a soap bubble at him from Manhattan. At least, not without some vaguely credible justification.

Do you recall the Star Trek: Deep Space 9 episode called Trials and Tribble-ations? In it, the 24th century crew encounters 23rd century Klingons without the distinctive cranial ridge. They are dumbfounded, and they naturally ask Worf about it. In response, Worf says something like "we do not speak about it with outsiders."

That's all it takes. They acknowledge the inconsistency (respecting the viewers), Worf is clearly uncomfortable about it (respecting the characters), and he gives a dismissive but believable answer (respecting the storyline).


So maybe when Pete & the gang show up for Infinity War, some comment will be made to explain how they fit in. It could be as simple as a single exchange of dialogue, and I'd be happy:

STARK: You guys are all pretty tough. Where were you during that whole Chitauri thing?

QUILL: Sorry, but we were tied up with the Baddoon that week.

See how easy? And because it's so easy, then if they don't do it, they're deliberately disrespecting the viewers, the characters, and the storyline.

[Orrex]

24. I prefer to insist that Leto's Joker doesn't exist, thank you very much

Last edited Mon Dec 11, 2017, 02:43 PM - Edit history (3)

And if I don't refer to it, then I don't have to acknowledge it.

However, I appreciate your effort to answer my objections in the proper spirit, so here goes:

1. if some characters are off in deep space, they have access to technology greater than what exists on the Marvel Universe earth (which has tech much greater than our real earth).

You're absolutely right, and I'm cool with that until that technology lands on Earth. Spider-Man: Homecoming did a nice job of showing the unintended impact of such tech loose in the world, but Tyne Daly and her Damage Control team will be pulling a lot of overtime to clean up after Pete & Co sweep into town. At the very least, the MCU will need to explain the impact of these gizmos once they're introduced among lowly earthlings.

2. That tech (which could be nano-based or bio-mechanical introduced as part of their diet) gives them better abilities to shrug off damage, leap higher, move quicker, etc. The characters grew up with that tech and more. They would have to understand it or would be disadvantaged in their culture. That includes piloting starships, using strange weapons, etc. That's a comic book convention; superheros typical know how to pilot anything from helicopter to jet to submarine, spaceship, train, etc. They know how to shut down power stations, use any communication device, etc.

Again, I'm sure you're right, and it's not a problem until they get to Earth, at which point even the lowliest of them will outclass the absolute best that Earth has to offer. This is why I noted that the Guardians films are fine if they're standalone stories in their own universe. The problem will come in how they address the catastrophic clash of cultures and tech that will occur in Infinity War.

3. Lower gravity could also be an explanation of the big leaps that bother you.

Maybe, but that's another problem. There's no other indication of lower gravity (objects don't fall more slowly, the atmosphere is no thinner, native species aren't taller, etc.), so I'm not satisfied that this explains it. If that were the answer, they could easily have addressed it by referring off-handedly to the difference. Imagine this exchange:

DRAX: I hate low-G environments.

GAMORRA: Why?

DRAX: Because I like my testicles to hang a certain way.

If "testicles" doesn't work in a Disney movie, then an earlier scene could establish a euphemism for genitals that Drax could then humorously re-use:

QUILL: Remember, if all else fails, kick him in the Gilligans.

then later:

DRAX: I hate low-G environments.

GAMORRA: Why?

DRAX: Because I like my Gilligans hanging a certain way.

Problem solved! Simple!

4. It is a comic book convention that some hero exceeds his physical and mental limits to succeed. It happens in every comic, not sure why it only bothers you in GOTG.

Again, it's because all of these characters exceed all of the Avengers (except maybe Hulk and Vision). If this isn't addressed on-screen when the two teams meet, then it is reasonable to ask why it is ignored. It could be played out with a very entertaining result, in fact. Imagine Stark and Rocket verbally sparring, or Pete and Captain America trading punches. Gamorra could probably take out Cap, Hawkeye, Black Widow, Falcon and Ant Man without even drawing her sword, but it would be fun to see.

All I'm asking is that they acknowledge the very clear differential that they've established. If they gloss it over or ignore it, then they're cheating the viewers and they're missing a golden opportunity.

5. While Starlord hadn't been back to earth, Yondu had been. It is possible others had been there too. Any slang could have come into vogue via others' connections to earth and just filtered down. It is possible that the slang originated elsewhere.

It's possible, yes, but there's no evidence for it, so that's simply an assumption that I'm not willing to make. After all, they explain the Zune product placement as something that Yondu found in a dump. If he'd been back to Earth, they could easily have said "he picked this up in some place called De-Troit." Without clear evidence of an Earth visit, we can't assume that it happened.

You didn't complain that all alien races speak English since that is a convention to aid in understanding.

Oh, but I did complain about that (see below)

I think your main problem with it is the tone and music. The tone and music are allowing the film to extend past the fanboy contingent into mainstream cinema audiences and be more accessible to a wider range of moviegoers.

Yes, that's a lot of it. The soundtracks in both films are so obviously calculated to grab an audience in 2014 and 2017, rather than making sense for Peter Quill, the child who was abducted in 1988, right? There's no Thriller? No Fight for the Right to Party? No Down Under No songs not owned by Disney No other songs that were actually popular in real time? Instead Mama Quill gave him the song to which Ego presumably impregnated her. Um... What?

While I'm at it, in 34 years nobody noticed Ego's little extraterrestrial flower planted immediately behind a piece of conspicuous product placement? Even if the area wasn't turned into a housing development, are we to believe that no one happened down that convenient little trail?

That's a lesson that DC comics hasn't learned yet.

Yeah, don't get me started.

As for my complaint about English, do you recall this thread? DetlefK cited the universal translator implant in Pete's neck, which is apparently explained in a deleted scene. Well, it wasn't explained in any non-deleted scenes, nor in the sequel, so we still can't assume it.

[FSogol]

33. You can't really call a no-longer sold mp3 device a product placement.

Using a Zune instead of the more popular Ipad was kind of a joke. And Yondu had been to earth, he mentions in in the movie, and Chris Pratt whines about it.

To allay your main concern: I imagine that the Avengers will encounter the Guardians in space and not on earth. I doubt much explanations of tech will be necessary, Stark, Shield, Banner, etc are mostly scientific heavyweights.

For the music disconnection, he's listening to the songs his Mom would have liked, not developing his own musical taste. Comics always have a problem with time anyway. Stark was wounded in the Korean War in the comics and Reed Richards was a WWII vet. Pandering to boomers with a cloyingly sweet soundtrack of mostly forgotten hits is good business sense, not a reason to hate a film.

For universal translators, those probably come in cereal boxes in advanced enough space civilizations.

All of this aside, you are just nitpicking.

[Orrex]

35. Ah, good point

If your in-space explanation is correct, then I agree that that would solve the problem. Kind of looks like Thor will bring them to Earth, though, or else they'll pick him up in deep space, then drop him off somewhere else in deep space, from which point he'll make his own way to Earth. Time will tell.

For the music disconnection, he's listening to the songs his Mom would have liked, not developing his own musical taste.

Well that seems unrealistic for a whole different reason, and it makes it even weirder that Mom would put her get-busy music on her pre-teen son's mix tape. Hmm...

Comics always have a problem with time anyway. Stark was wounded in the Korean War in the comics and Reed Richards was a WWII vet. Pandering to boomers with a cloyingly sweet soundtrack of mostly forgotten hits is good business sense, not a reason to hate a film.

No reason it can't be both, when a marketing decision has an impact on the storyline.

I'm not persuaded by the "problem with time" argument, because that's a function of the long-term periodical format rather than a series of billion-dollar cinematic events.

For universal translators, those probably come in cereal boxes in advanced enough space civilizations.

They very well might, but since the movie doesn't tell us one way or the other, we have no basis for assuming it. Again, the 134 minute film could EASILY handle this:

GAMORRA: I can't believe that you screwed that up.

QUILL (tapping his neck): Dammit.

GAMORRA: What's wrong?

QUILL: I think my translator's on the blink. It sounded like you said I screwed up.

See? It explains the translator--absolutely eliminating that objection--and it's entirely consistent with the characters. Also, the film closed with like a 45 minute closeup of Rocket's face, so they certainly could have spared three seconds of screen time. (45 minutes might be a slight exaggeration).

All of this aside, you are just nitpicking.

Nitpicking is in the eye of the beholder.

[TeapotInATempest]

27. You hate baby Groot?!

How is that even possible?

[Orrex]

29. As a rule, I don't care for overt merchandising gimmicks

[gratuitous]

30. I'll give it a chance

I liked the dumb fun of the first movie, with one of my all-time favorite lines. Peter hangs back to reclaim his cassette player from the prison guard who appropriated it, comes back to his ship, and Drax asks him what was so important that he risked everything to go back. Peter hands him the Walkman, Drax looks at, gasps slightly and says, "You're an imbecile!"

I can watch that scene over and over. If there's just one scene like that in Part 2, it'll be worth it.

[Orrex]

31. Drax is the bright spot in the sequel

He has a couple of good lines that might deliver what you're hoping to see, but I'm not going to spoil them.

[Gothmog]

32. I truly enjoyed this movie