TYT: Billionaires Choking Out Climate Change Science

[WhoIsNumberNone]

"Even by the standards of the super-rich, Charles and David Koch are extraordinarily wealthy. Together they own most of Koch Industries, one of the largest private conglomerates in America with annual revenues of around $100bn (£62.5bn), and interests as diverse as energy, petrochemicals, pulp and paper."*

A shocking amount of money is being spent to blot out climate change science and education. Which billionaires are dumping their money into this pseudo scientific campaign? Cenk Uygur has the answer, and if you've been paying attention, you probably already know who it is.

[indepat]

1. Bet the Koch brothers don't worry about burning in hell for possibly hastening

mankind's demise by promoting climate change denial: hell for them and all of their cloth would be much too good imo.

[Amonester]

4. They think that they will be dead when the shite will hit the fan (already started)

or that with all their money they are immune to the dire consequences (including hunger)...

They.Don't.Care.

[golfguru]

2. Climate change has happened for millions of years

The last drastic climate change was onset of ice age. The subsequent global warming then took place which melted all those billions of tons of ice. Where Chicago is now, there were 4 mile thick layers of glaciers during last ice age. It must have been some horrible global warming to melt all that ice and form the Great Lakes, largest body of fresh water on earth. It was climate change alright, but the Neanderthals were not capable of causing it, unless you believe they burned too many twigs.

Looking at more recent climate change, hottest average temperatures were recorded during the dust bowl years in United States. That is during the days of horse and buggies. May be the flatulence by horses was responsible?

Lastly, China is building ONE NEW COAL FIRED POWER PLANT EVERY WEEK! And China refuses to impose any tax based on climate change. Ditto with India.

[blackspade]

3. Fail.

Your understanding of climate history is seriously lacking.

And history too. You do realize that one of the major causes of the dust bowl era was the mechanization of agriculture due to the use of tractors? It took place in the 1930's. Horses and buggies were out of common use by that time.

[golfguru]

5. What has that got to do with anything?

I was explaining global warming cycles as old as history of earth. I had no intention of
getting into causes of dust bowls of the 1930's. I merely mentioned that to inform readers
that average temperatures were even higher DURING THE DUST BOWL PERIOD.

Mechanization is like 25 times more today than it was in the 1930's. You have no explanation
for why ice age comes and then global warming happens to melt the ice. It happens in cycles
going back millions of years, may be billions of years.

[blackspade]

6. I was attempting to point out that your climate change denials.....

were not based on actual climate science.
You are correct in pointing out that there are cyclical patterns of warming and cooling but your understanding of the mechanisms does not appear to be grounded in science.
Pointing out that the central US had higher avg temps in the 1930s does not contradict or undermine the fact that the avg global temp has increased dramatically over the last two decades.
That is the issue, not whether the temp is higher or lower than normal at a particular place. It is the global avg that matters.

[golfguru]

7. Learn English comprehension

II am laughing my ass off at your comment that I am denying climate change!

Remove those blinders!!!! Get away from politics for a minute or two.

Climate change has been going on for Billions of years.

And it will go on for another Billion years, long after humanity becomes extinct just
like the Dinosaurs did due to some cataclysmic incident such as a huge asteroid crashing
into earth or something we have no knowledge of, such as what caused the extinction of
the most powerful creatures on earth, those magnificent dinosaurs.

[blackspade]

8. LOL.

nice dodge.
I'll clarify: You appear to be denying man-made climate change which is the issue here.

[golfguru]

9. I am stating facts which are actually KNOWN

Man made global warming is an open question. Natural global warming has been proven.

I will explain one last time....the last ice age came to an end because of one of the strongest
global warmings. Only thing the cave man was burning was a few twigs.

As recently as 1930's, when automobile was rare, SUV's were non-existent, average temperatures
were higher than any time in the 21st century. In ancient history of the older cultures such as India going back 5000 years, there are writings of excruciating heat waves.

Is man contributing to global warming? Possibly. But compared to the nature, man is like a small
pimple on a bull elephants ass.

[CreekDog]

13. back in the 1930's it wasn't warmer here

so um.

[blackspade]

14. It is no an open question.

Man-made climate change is real.
Deal with it.

[CreekDog]

12. well climatologists know more than you about historic climate change

and climatic cycles that have occurred over long periods of time.

and yet, nearly all of them, who know and study ancient climates and ancient climate change, are worried about current climate change.

you seem to take a few anecdotes about climate change happening in ancient times as proof that people can't change climate now.

nonsense.

[golfguru]

15. Caution: Global cooling straight ahead...

but yes, that is also climate change lol.

Now go tell the biggest fossil fuel burners...China & India what they intend to do
about climate change. Ask them if they are willing to impose carbon tax. but be
prepared to be laughed out of the room. Their economies are growing 4 times faster
than ours so how do you propose to stop it?

Another fact which might cause sleepless nights to man made global warming prognosticators:
China is building NEW coal fired power generation plants at the rate of ONE EVERY
WEEK! China is signing up for coal supplies from all over the world. Ditto for oil supplies.

[CreekDog]

17. so you're saying don't do anything because it's all natural and don't do anything

because it's all natural and it's China's and India's fault already.

your post is so bad that it implies that the truth is simply the opposite of whatever you believe.

[golfguru]

19. You are stating absolutely nothing to counter my argument

Just calling me names is not a debating point.

[CreekDog]

20. Don't lie. I did not call you any names.

I stated factually the problems with your arguments and I did so without calling you names.

In fact, I doubt you even read my post. Any argument you make in this thread is suspect now that you've accused me of calling you names when it is easily verified that I didn't call you any names.

[ErikJ]

22. 2012 among the 10 warmest years on record, figures show

In both cases, scientists said the 2012 global temperature records further consolidate a pattern of global warming. Each year of the 21st century has ranked among the 14 hottest since record keeping began in 1880.
..................
By far, the most extreme heat for 2012 was in the contiguous United States, which smashed through all previous temperature records by 1F.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/environment/2013/jan/16/2012-10-warmest-years-on-record

[AverageJoe90]

10. .....

While it might be true that the period of warming was indeed far more dramatic, than even the worst possible AGW climate change scenarios, at the end of the last Ice Age, it's also been pointed out many times on this site that anthropogenic effects on climate change ARE real, and are causing problems, right now.

If you'd like some decent information on climate change, here's a couple of tips: stay very far away from ANY site that proclaims gloom-and-doom, the supposed "inevitable" total end of all civilization, etc. Not only are they nuts in most cases, but they're also making legitimate supporters of the science, like myself and many others here, look very, very bad with all the B.S. they throw out; people such as David Wasdell, Guy McPherson, and Malcolm P.R. Light, and many others of this clique(I call them the wannabe Cassandras: they wish they were predictors of the truth but all they are is just cuckoo, whether they know it or not.) would be better off as posters on Above Top Secret or Godless Productions or some other fringe weirdo place.

If you want a good site, skepticalscience.com might just be the gold standard in this regard. I also suggest you google the name of GreenMan3610, a guy from Mich. who's made many a good video explaining the science on YouTube.

[golfguru]

16. Thank you for a more sensible post...any comments on my post #15

Re: what can be done to stop China & India from going whole hog on burning fossil fuels?

[AverageJoe90]

18. Nothing now. n/t

[CreekDog]

21. we can reduce our emissions because it's the right thing to do

if every nation only does the right thing when all the other nations agree to do the right thing, you have a formula for inaction and a situation where nobody reduces emissions.

nevermind that China is going to need to reduce emissions at some point because their severe air pollution problems are going to endanger their population and increase the cost of their healthcare, as well as endanger their water supplies.

all these things will impact their industrial capacity, which at some point they will realize, many within their government do realize this already.

so the idea that we, here in the US have to wait for India and China to see the light before we act is nonsense.

Germany has certainly shown that moving to alternative energy can be done while increasing the country's standard of living and amidst a thriving economy.

why can't we, or do you not think this country is capable of doing good things?

[AverageJoe90]

23. Very true, CD.

Unfortunately, there's still a fair number of naysayers out there. including from some people who ought to know better.....

[golfguru]

24. There are two types of air pollution and each has to be treated differently

First is the toxic kind such as cancer causing chemicals, Hydrogen sulphide which reacts with moisture and causes acid rain, or particulate emissions of any kind which cause emphysema or even ling cancer.

The second type of pollution is Carbon dioxide, water vapor etc. These emissions in atmosphere do not harm the human body, and are actually used by vegetation as food.

The first type of emissions must be regulated by law. Severe penalties must be imposed on serious and repeat violators.

The second type have questionable effects on climate change. We should all make our best
efforts to reduce such emissions. I am against imposing any tax on such emissions. I am
for laws which require auto manufacturers to produce fuel efficient cars and restrict carbon monoxide or other emissions which directly affect human health.

[CreekDog]

25. Carbon dioxide is not good for your body, and increasing levels are turning the ocean acidic

there is so much wrong with your post, but the idea that increasing levels of carbon dioxide, which is a greenhouse gas is actually good for you or the environment is a statement only a person completely ignorant of science could make.

the responsible thing to do is correct your post or delete it because if you have a conscience, that conscience would be troubled by the thought that you are spreading patently false and misleading information to people who read here.

the other thing, unrelated, that you posted which does not make sense...that you want to regulate the auto industry, but oppose the same type of regulation of power utilities and power plants --even though both are the top emitters or contributors to global greenhouse gases. to regulate one of those big boys without regulating the other? that makes no sense.

[golfguru]

26. That is your opinion and you are entitled to any opinions

You present zero proof to substantiate your opinions. But that does not make me angry.
If you are sleeping well with your opinions, more power to you.

[CreekDog]

27. it's not MY OPINION that excess carbon dioxide in the oceans is a bad thing

adding carbon dioxide to the oceans changes the pH of the oceans.

additional carbon dioxide in the atmosphere goes somewhere, if not the oceans, where do you suppose it goes? is it all huffed down by ghosts?

you are just making things up as you go along and failing badly at trying to make unscientific statements sound like they are grounded in science, when they are more likely cribbed from a Fox News talking head who studied anything BUT climate.

[CreekDog]

28. it turns out you post climate change denial posts here at DU, based on the writings of an astrologer

well isn't that interesting.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=9767

golfguru (4,247 posts)
23. In case you have not kept up with the news...

Last edited Mon Mar 19, 2012, 08:23 PM USA/ET - Edit history (1)

we are now in a cooling trend for next decade or two.
And breaking news....polar bear population is rising!

We should be spending time on more important issues such as price
of energy, unemployment, anemic GDP growth, middle-east wars, women's
right to abortion, quality of drinking water, finding cures for cancer etc.
Global warming and cooling is a natural phenomena, and as I said, we
are just a pimple on a large bull elephant's derriere, compared to power of the Sun.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=10043

golfguru (4,247 posts)
30. I have never denied global warming...just MAN MADE global warming

because man is no more than a zit on a very large bull elephant's derriere compared to
natural cycles cause by SUN which is 1,300,000 bigger than earth. Stop this nonsense about man made global warming. It is just another excuse to raise taxes.

and you use DU to link to a climate change denial site (saying that the polar bears are doing great was just a bonus):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1127&pid=9629

[golfguru]

29. Climate change I agree with 100%, like I said, going on for Billions of years.

man made climate change? I am not at all convinced.

I bet those people in Boston must be praying for global warming right now.
We lost electricity for just 36 hours last winter. It was pure hell. I grew up
in Western India where temps reached 115 deg F routinely in summer. It was not
comfortable but not even close to hell.

[CreekDog]

30. you are a full-blown denier of anthropogenic climate change and you keep posting that

even though it is a completely Republican attitude to take.

not to mention a completely unscientific one.

and you don't get to quote one "study" or one "researcher" if you want to claim you are being scientific when you will dismiss the overwhelming majority of scientists and cherry pick one outlier researcher --then claim your stance is based on science.

it's not, or you wouldn't insist on only quoting the outlier studies.

nevermind that it's completely ridiculous that on DU you've posted that you thought Obama was not showing his long form birth certificate because he wanted to conceal his father's true identity. yes, you said that, recently.

so maybe i'm just dealing with someone that most of us have nothing in common with, especially those of us who look at this topic scientifically.