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Bernie Sanders to Betsy DeVos: Would You Be Here If You Weren't A Multi-Billionaire? (Original Post) Donkees Jan 2017 OP
What a waste of a question when time was so precious bettyellen Jan 2017 #1
It's a fair question. DeVos has no expertise or experience related to the position The Velveteen Ocelot Jan 2017 #2
He didn't dispute her claim of "thirty years" of experience .... bettyellen Jan 2017 #4
I'm a Bernie guy tazkcmo Jan 2017 #20
Thanks! I don't think that framing was nearly as helpful as hitting her on policy ..... bettyellen Jan 2017 #21
She is an advocate of vouchers, and tax breaks for parents who send their kids to private schools. still_one Jan 2017 #8
I agree betty. I think he was trying to link that her positions on education predominately benefit still_one Jan 2017 #3
Agreed BUT Uponthegears Jan 2017 #6
No question about it, you're right still_one Jan 2017 #9
Lol. Wow. Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2017 #7
He is bringing to light that she is NOT going to make child care and college tuition affordble. Dustlawyer Jan 2017 #23
It wasn't really a waste. kenfrequed Jan 2017 #27
"diminishing his line of questioning either suggests you hadn't thought of that" ?!? bettyellen Jan 2017 #29
Wow! kenfrequed Jan 2017 #31
When a nominee Uponthegears Jan 2017 #5
In my view you are making point that I think got lost with Bernie's initial question. Sure, still_one Jan 2017 #10
Its worse than that. rgbecker Jan 2017 #11
Wish he'd asked about those details upfront. Do appreciate him asking about Day care though... bettyellen Jan 2017 #12
Nice job Bernie! Equinox Moon Jan 2017 #13
Here is how Al Franken handled it still_one Jan 2017 #14
Read about that earlier. He exposed her as not having a clue. underpants Jan 2017 #15
It was great still_one Jan 2017 #16
I just read up on it underpants Jan 2017 #17
He had another question she appeared clueless about. dgauss Jan 2017 #18
I thought that was great- "proficiency" is everything that wrong and forces them to teach to the bettyellen Jan 2017 #22
I saw that. Yes it's complete BS and - what's the hurry underpants Jan 2017 #25
The DeVos family live like kings and queens in MI elmac Jan 2017 #19
that last statement by her was absolutely pathetic. barbtries Jan 2017 #24
Her unwillingness to answer questions was the takeaway kenfrequed Jan 2017 #26
The DeVos family BELIEVE they are kings and queens... thekestrelseye Jan 2017 #28
The first time I ever heard of amway was 30 years ago in high school. Hassin Bin Sober Jan 2017 #30
Don't throw the baby out with the bath water thekestrelseye Oct 2018 #32

The Velveteen Ocelot

(115,806 posts)
2. It's a fair question. DeVos has no expertise or experience related to the position
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 08:11 PM
Jan 2017

she's been nominated for. Trump is stacking his cabinet with people just like that - very rich but totally unqualified. She needs to justify why she's actually qualified for the job; Trump's only apparent qualification for his cabinet officers is wealth. The same question should be asked of all of Trump's nominees.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
4. He didn't dispute her claim of "thirty years" of experience ....
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 08:22 PM
Jan 2017

And then moved on to college, sort of skipping over plans to dismantle public schools. But it's always the same schtick, billionaires and college. It gets old.

tazkcmo

(7,300 posts)
20. I'm a Bernie guy
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 12:32 AM
Jan 2017

I agree with him about 90-95% of the time. I agree with you this time. He's right about the billionaires and college but there's a time and a place for everything.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
21. Thanks! I don't think that framing was nearly as helpful as hitting her on policy .....
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 12:48 AM
Jan 2017

That she's been supporting in the past. Whether he likes it or not most people know well that cabinet appointments aren't exactly based on merit. Especially this time. I'd rather see people being educated about the dangerous policies not this class based stuff.

still_one

(92,325 posts)
8. She is an advocate of vouchers, and tax breaks for parents who send their kids to private schools.
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 08:33 PM
Jan 2017

Public Schools correctly MUST accept everyone. Private schools don't have to, and what DeVos wants to do is create an elitist system of education, where the less advantaged will be left behind.

Overtime these assholes have tried to deregulate or privatize everything, with the claim of competition, deregulation, or the market will determine the best course, and it always has turned into a nightmare. It is a variation on their trickle down economics, which has more than conclusively shown to be a failure.

They want to do this with public education, healthcare, and anything else they can get their hands on.

This is just another attack against the middle class and poor in this country

still_one

(92,325 posts)
3. I agree betty. I think he was trying to link that her positions on education predominately benefit
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 08:20 PM
Jan 2017

the wealthy, and I don't think it was made very well.

In my view I wish he would have gone into why Public Education is vital for a free society, and why her positions on vouchers and other tax breaks for the wealthy would actually take money away from Public Education.

No doubt Devois would have gone into the republican same bullshit about competition would be could for public education, ignoring the fact that Public Education has to accept EVERYONE, while private schools don't.

It is the same republican garbage, we need to privatize everything.

I really detest these people

 

Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
6. Agreed BUT
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 08:29 PM
Jan 2017

It's not just that DeVos wants us to subsidize schools for the rich, she is currently directly financing the brainwashing of children through so-called opportunity charters and bankrolling anti-public school RWNJ candidates.

She is the poster child for money in politics.

Dustlawyer

(10,497 posts)
23. He is bringing to light that she is NOT going to make child care and college tuition affordble.
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 08:45 AM
Jan 2017

That is the point when she will not give a real answer.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
27. It wasn't really a waste.
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 10:11 AM
Jan 2017

Last edited Wed Jan 18, 2017, 03:10 PM - Edit history (2)

The questions he asked were about equality of opportunity regardless of economic status.

She provided no answers and he cut her off several times.

Senators of the same party frequently share the lines of questioning they are taking to avoid excessive redundancy and thereby "wasting questions."

Diminishing his line of questioning suggests you hadn't thought of that.

It actually is important that we consider the children of the working poor.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
29. "diminishing his line of questioning either suggests you hadn't thought of that" ?!?
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 02:00 PM
Jan 2017

Reading this I reply I have to wonder if it's a sloppy cut and paste? Because that's not the only sentence that made no sense. Seems scripted. interesting.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
31. Wow!
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 03:08 PM
Jan 2017

I had rapid edited at work. Just strike the word 'either' and cut to the quick.

Or maintain your Bernie-bashing Bull(expletive deleted).

 

Uponthegears

(1,499 posts)
5. When a nominee
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 08:22 PM
Jan 2017

Has used their wealth to destroy public education through buying elections, funding RWNJ charter schools, producing slick anti-union propaganda, etc. What could be a better question?

The sad thing is that it looks like shutting down post-mortem won't stop the hate.

still_one

(92,325 posts)
10. In my view you are making point that I think got lost with Bernie's initial question. Sure,
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 08:36 PM
Jan 2017

everyone here understands it, but it really needs to be spelled out just like you did

rgbecker

(4,834 posts)
11. Its worse than that.
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 08:51 PM
Jan 2017

Public money going to Catholic schools so they can teach their anti choice, anti women message on the tax payer's dime. DeVos is a leading advocate of taking public school money from the public schools and handing funding over to bigots and racists disguised as school teachers.

Equinox Moon

(6,344 posts)
13. Nice job Bernie!
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 10:08 PM
Jan 2017

He called her out on being a billionaire and not giving a fuck about people living on 30-40,000 year.

She represents the sociopaths that have way more money than they should.

underpants

(182,861 posts)
15. Read about that earlier. He exposed her as not having a clue.
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 10:34 PM
Jan 2017

Sen. Al Franken discovers Trump Education Secretary nominee Betsy DeVos doesn't know the difference between proficiency and growth.

underpants

(182,861 posts)
17. I just read up on it
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 11:03 PM
Jan 2017

I know what the words mean but not in the context of education. Not very complicated. She should have had an answer ready to go. Pretty embarrassing.

dgauss

(882 posts)
18. He had another question she appeared clueless about.
Tue Jan 17, 2017, 11:47 PM
Jan 2017

Last edited Wed Jan 18, 2017, 02:12 AM - Edit history (1)

As I understood the question, it was whether DeVos favored proficiency or growth as a way to measure teaching effectiveness. Proficiency involves comparing a student's test scores to some standard level set for that grade. Growth measures how a student does year to year. Any teachers here familiar with this can correct me if that isn't quite right. Franken preferred growth and gave some reasons why.

Anyway, DeVos answered "proficiency," and went on to explain that that way you could measure how a student is progressing year to year (or something close to that in effect) and Franken cut her off. "That's growth." he said. He then went on to ask her how she did not understand that. This is a question talked about all the time in education. It's a big issue, how could should not understand the distinction? It was pretty embarrassing.

That led Franken to another point about what a sham this hearing was. The chair of the hearing had limited it to one round of questioning and I think Senators weren't even allowed to ask follow up questions. Franken turned to the Republican Chair of the hearing and said something like "See, this is why I think we need more than one round of questioning. I don't understand why this is limited to one round."

Basically it was some typical Republican BS. Arne Duncan only had one round of questions so it would be unfair to have two rounds for DeVos. Republicans were just being fair. Total BS. They were limiting the questioning of DeVos because they knew she was clueless. Other Dems kept bringing this up and exposing the tactic. For instance, if Republicans had wanted two rounds of questioning of Duncan they could have had it but now the Republicans are using the fact that there was only one round as some kind of precedent for the number of rounds of questioning that should be asked a nominee for Secretary of Education, an idea of precedence that no one had ever heard of before.

There was more to that but it was clear it was all a BS twisting of the rules.

 

bettyellen

(47,209 posts)
22. I thought that was great- "proficiency" is everything that wrong and forces them to teach to the
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 01:19 AM
Jan 2017

Test instead of skill building. It's what they use to measure schools and punish them. It leads to a lot of phony grades being given just to save the schools from being closed. It's a mess.

underpants

(182,861 posts)
25. I saw that. Yes it's complete BS and - what's the hurry
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 09:07 AM
Jan 2017

As Sen. Murray pointed out her ethics paperwork has been completed yet so they can't confirm her anyway.

 

elmac

(4,642 posts)
19. The DeVos family live like kings and queens in MI
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 12:18 AM
Jan 2017

very sickening, can't even watch local news because they are always drooling over them like their gods.

barbtries

(28,810 posts)
24. that last statement by her was absolutely pathetic.
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 08:46 AM
Jan 2017

she hasn't got a clue or a care in the world. i have to call my senators today.

kenfrequed

(7,865 posts)
26. Her unwillingness to answer questions was the takeaway
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 10:04 AM
Jan 2017

Bernie was challenging her on the absolute aspect of unequal educational opportunities and realities.

Her unwillingness to answer questions and speak to this is a testament to the importance of those questions.

thekestrelseye

(8 posts)
28. The DeVos family BELIEVE they are kings and queens...
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 10:57 AM
Jan 2017

Last edited Wed Jan 18, 2017, 12:41 PM - Edit history (1)

In case it hasn't been said enough: The DeVos family, founders of Amway, made their billions substantially by scamming off "the little people" in one of the world's biggest multi-level marketing schemes. They use religion, flag-waving and pledge-reciting to 'sanctify' their business. Prayer and recitation of the Pledge of Allegiance figure prominently at the majority of group marketing meetings. Motivational success-hype figures prominently at these meetings, at conventions, and in all aspects of the business. Upline leaders are worshipped like godlings. Any criticism is treated as sacrilege. The further up the line, the more godlike. The founders carry a status akin to the Olympians. The DeVos' family business is not just another MLM scheme. It is the original template from which almost all MLM schemes draw their baseline business model.

The business is a true empire, with its own private factories for many of the products, which range across an astonishing number of categories. Although it is possible to save some money over bigbox retail purchase, that only can occur if substantial and mandatory yearly fees are paid, and the member is willing to spend the time required to replace a large number of household products with substitutes made exclusively by the company, and learns which product lines will earn them the most "points" toward rebates. Some of the products are superior, but most are not IMO. For example: Many of the so-called environmentally friendly household products are actually full of chemicals; Foods marketed as healthy are full of artificial sweeteners, and other questionable additives. Products are often sold on the basis of anecdotes which have no basis in fact, and these product-myths are actively encouraged upline.

Contrary to the hype, very few members get wealthy signing up more members and selling the product. Those few who do, do so in part by selling "How to Succeed in Business" self-help materials to their downline members on a monthly subscription basis, which of course adds tremendously to the monthly expenses of downline members. This income can easily comprise half or more of the upline leader's profit. These materials are often marketed to the membership as indispensible to their success. Those who choose not to sign up for monthly subscriptions are stigmatized as "not really serious about the business."

No one, not even the majority of upline leaders, really has any security in the business. Only the founders have any security, and most of the profit eventually finds its way up to them. If people do make any money, you can be sure they work like a dog for it, often 7 days a week, and late into the night. Contrary to company myth, it's not a business that can work well on a part time basis. Most successful members are married teams where both work the business full time. The average Joe or Josephine will spend a lot to save a little on purchases, if they understand how to use the product lines efficiently, but will never see a profit.

The DeVos family reigns supreme over this empire. It really is its own little world, with its own capitol in Grand Rapids MI, where the business faithful make yearly pilgrimage to worship at annual conventions. The DeVos' receive adulation therein comparable to that of Emperors and Empresses.

I have no illusions that the more conventional retail approach is any better, overall, than a company of this type. Anyone who knows retail knows that is rife with middlemen who do little more than add to the cost of products for consumers. Amway, marketed as Quixtar at the turn of the millennium, developed a marketing website that for several years was unrivaled and the envy of online product sales. Much of what we now know as Amazon's website was originally modeled on that site's innovations. Most who bought their products in those days and wanted to return them found their customer service to be generally obliging and efficient.

What I object to in a business like that of the Devos' is that it preys particularly on the vulnerability of the inexperienced, desperate and struggling, arraying itself in the guise of a false integrity and spirituality, and promising miracles and a rescue it cannot deliver. Those few who rise to a bit of notoriety and profit in the business know very well exactly how it works, and that the majority who participate will fail, making the necessity of finding new 'marks' relentless. But by the time they wake up from the sanctified and patriotic dream of an easy materialistic heaven that's been dangled continuously before them, it's swallowed them whole. They've already invested so much time, energy, and money in the enterprise, the suck to remain, and keep on peddling the lie downline is very strong.

Hassin Bin Sober

(26,335 posts)
30. The first time I ever heard of amway was 30 years ago in high school.
Wed Jan 18, 2017, 02:47 PM
Jan 2017

My friend's parents got roped in.

Boy oh boy, were they going to be millionaires!! Educated people too.

I have one answer for these types of sales from friends: No

A couple years ago I started to get emails for skin products from a friend. I called him to tell him his email was hacked. Nope. It was him. Gah!!!!

My niece is selling some diet supplement bullshit. She got my partner to buy some crap. After that I said no more.

The worst is she keeps hitting grandma up. Last time I was there grandma said she was going to stop as she is on a very tight fixed income. Sure enough, grandma was writing a check for $60 bucks for some shit last weekend.

I told grandma to just ask her how much he makes for a sale and just give her that. No need to enrich some snake oil manufacturer.

To make matters worse, now niece is pushing some shit for sister in law's 4 year old. "I think he has xyz syndrome" -- now you are a fucking doctor because... pamphlets????

thekestrelseye

(8 posts)
32. Don't throw the baby out with the bath water
Thu Oct 25, 2018, 10:59 PM
Oct 2018

Last edited Fri Oct 26, 2018, 01:15 AM - Edit history (1)

There are quite a few MLM companies that actually do have some excellent products. Usually these are part of their signature lines, and sometimes there is a small array of good products scattered across several product lines. But there are some big problems that can come with access to these products.

One of the problems is the way these products are marketed, as you correctly noted in your comment. Sometimes claims are made that actually are substantiated by honest research, but quite often downline distributors never bother to read the supporting materials that are usually only found online, not in the promotional pamphlets, and which can be difficult to locate on the company's website as well. Instead, distributors tend to rely on word of mouth claims that come down from upline leaders, and which get exaggerated as the information travels from person to person.

There are plenty of other problems as well, especially in how the opportunities for profit are represented. But I don't mean to dis all MLM companies and their products. Sales plans and quality of inventory vary greatly from company to company. A few do carry some really excellent health and household products. But these products are frequently accompanied by unreasonable demands for minimum monthly purchase expenditures in exchange for membership discount pricing, that ultimately force singles, the disabled, and fixed income customers into purchasing more than they need or want. If a customer seeks to avoid these demands, then exorbitant prices are often charged for the same products.

Mainly I wrote this post because I wanted people to know what the De Vos family fortune is really all about, and expose the general lack of integrity in their methods. It's this lack of integrity, leading to the acquisition of massive amounts of money, that is worrisome in Betsy De Vos' appointment. That, and the fact that she has no expertise in education, and was appointed mainly because she wants Charter schools to be the rule for American education, rather than digging in and correcting the many problems that beset our public schools.

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