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"All the world is a stage" in Shakespeare lore, but in the real world with real (difficult) world leaders we need "measured" leaders and not drama, and definitely not tit-for-tat reactionary hot heads in top offices.
He tries to get it right, and he talks to us all plainly. We don't have to question whether he is sincere or not.
Yet, time after time, we see that he's just another politician like all the others. Things like this help to illustrate the point.
Last edited Sat Apr 9, 2016, 09:09 PM - Edit history (1)
... the immaturity suggested by your use of the term "St. Bernie" makes me uninterested in anything further you have to say.
Admittedly, name calling is rampant on DU and even I have used the phrase "Hillbots" on occasion. Learning from your example here, I'm going to do my best to avoid that term, and any other such terms, going forward.
- - -
Edited to correct my misuse of the word belied. Corrected to suggested. As a former English major, I am more than a little embarrassed--but not so much as to prevent me from making the correction. 
...weeks ago.
We are not "outraged" (although many of your cohorts like to imagine we are). I'm not sure why anyone would be, unless they felt their Jewish faith was being disrespected by the utter tone-deafness of members of the majority society hanging a lot of Christian iconography (the photoshops) and terminology on this Yiddische mensch whose parents fled Poland before the Christians could gas them.
Speaking for myself: Outraged? No. Gobsmacked? Yes.
Watch the birdie
Hope to see you around when times are better.
Hope to see you around, too. 
It is simple--you are right.
"That is all it is." Because, you know, a Bishop in the Vatican, and close advisor to the Pope, is absolutely going to take his marching orders from Jeffrey Sachs. 
I am not now calling, nor did I ever call, the Pope a liar.
As you well know, my only point was to highlight the absurdity of your suggestion that Jeffrey Sachs, and not the Vatican, was truly in charge of who attends a Vatican conference. "That is all it is," you stated (your exact words)--as if invitations to attend Vatican conferences are nothing special.
But the Vatican couldn't afford her speaking fees 
You win a sound effect. 
... that all this outrage over the Vatican's invitation to Sanders to speak at a Vatican conference (I'm calling this thread of yours, Seabeyond, "The 'Yup!' Heard Round the World!" makes them look jealous and petty.
So keep flogging away at this dead horse, by all means!
In all seriousness, thanks for the thread. It's been a lot of fun debating this topic, and I mean that sincerely. I've gotten a somewhat better since of who you are and I don't mean that in a bad way, either. By and large, all your questions strike me as honest and civil, which is always a good thing.
I hope you haven't been offended by some of my sharper retorts. I enjoy debate, try to do it with a sense of humor, but there's no denying that it can be rough-and-tumble.
I've learned a bit, too. Yes, Sanders uttered a lie with that "Yup!". To my mind, it's not a big deal, but it was a lie and I think he knew it: If you watch your own video, you'll see he looks down a moment while delivering that "Yup!", which tells me he knew the answer wasn't true.
What do I wish Sanders had done? Well, in a better world, he would have held up his hand and said something to the effect of, "Let me stop you right there, Joy. I don't know if I'm going to get a chance to meet the Pope. I hope I do, and we'll see about that. But let's not get ahead of ourselves. For the time being, I'm simply attending, by invitation, a Vatican conference, and I'm honored to be a part of it."
But this is in the midst of a heated primary, I think Behar's question caught him by surprise, and he was in front of a large studio audience, just waiting to cheer. The situation with the Vatican was still unfolding and the Vatican had not excluded the possibility of meeting the Pope (nor have they). So Bernie Sanders was human and uttered the "Yup." I can forgive him for that. It's probably too much to ask you to forgive him the "Yup," but you might suprise me.
... and, for whatever reason, you are unwilling or unable to debate or discuss topics with someone who holds opposing views.
It's particularly disappointing that you didn't read my post prior to this one, since I think you might have liked it. Oh well.
Clearly you want to pull the plug on dialogue here, so have a good day.
that is hosting the conference who invited Bernie to speak. You all know, that the Pope does not invite people himself, don't you? He has people for that.
I hope for his sake that the Pope wipes all your smiley faces upside down by having a private conversation with Bernie. I think you are all jealous because Hillary wasn't invited...but then they wouldn't pay her 250K for a speech, would they?
Even the BBC is saying the Pope invited him. While in the same article they say he may not meet the Pope.
http://www.bbc.com/news/election-us-2016-35999269
Oh, btw, I suspect Ms Archer was NOT attacking Bernie with intent to support Hillary, but instead, in a fit of pique that someone invited him and it did not go through her. She is a woman, she should know her place. 
"For the moment there is no expectation that there will also be a meeting with the pope," Lombardi said.
http://www.usnews.com/news/articles/2016-04-08/so-who-exactly-invited-bernie-sanders-to-the-vatican
So, it appears to be a possibility that Sanders initiated the contact, but it was Sorondo who had him invited (not uptight Ms Archer). And there is nothing wrong with him wanting to be involved with a conference on social and economic justice. You all know if Hillary could have done this and gotten her photo op, she sure as hell would.
But keep chasing that red dot.
Last edited Sat Apr 9, 2016, 10:18 PM - Edit history (1)
the conference -- the President of the academy -- was the one who said Bernie had lobbied for the invite in a "discourteous way." Meaning, Bernie's people by-passed her and got the invite from a board member.
With the help of one of the invited speakers, Jeffrey Sachs, Bernie somehow did an end run around the woman President/Board Head and scored an invite from the chancellor -- the diocesan official who is a member of the board and whose job is to "assist" the President.
But not quite in this way.
The woman, Prof. Archer, is the President of the Pontifical Academy.
The "guy," Prof. Coronado, is the Chancellor
http://www.pass.va/content/scienzesociali/en/about/council.html
The Council of the Academy consists of the President and five Academicians appointed by the Supreme Pontiff, on the proposal of the President, after consultation with the Academicians. Their term of office lasts five years. They may be reappointed.
In addition the following are members of the Council durante munere:
- the Chancellor appointed by the Supreme Pontiff,
- the Delegate of the Pontifical Council for Justice and Peace;
- the President of the Foundation for the Promotion of the Social Sciences.
These three members attend the sessions of the Academy with the right to vote. The Council assists the President in everything concerning the direction of the Academy, especially in planning the work and preparing the meetings; it receives the reports on the financial resources.
The Council meets at least twice a year at the Academy's headquarters.
The deliberations of the Academy and its Council are valid when a majority of the members are present and when they are approved by a majority of those present. In the case of parity the vote of the President prevails.
AND WHAT IS A CHANCELLOR?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chancellor_(ecclesiastical)
In the Roman Catholic Church a chancellor is the chief record-keeper of a diocese or eparchy or their equivalent. Normally a priest, sometimes a deacon or layperson, the chancellor keeps the official archives of the diocese, as a notary certifies documents, and generally manages the administrative offices (and sometimes finances and personnel) of a diocese. He may be assisted by vice-chancellors. Though he manages the paperwork and office (called the "chancery" , has no actual jurisdictional authority: the bishop of the diocese exercises decision-making authority through his judicial vicar, in judicial matters, and the vicar general for administrative matters.
Especially when we know what a Fount of Wisdom the Internets are, nothing but Truth wherever you look.
Good luck with that.
Watch the birdie
Even if he's not meeting with the Pope, the FACT that the Vatican invited him constitutes a form of approval and endorsement.
It's been a great week for Bernie!
The first time was about Hillary Clinton disrespecting his qualifications in an explicit manner. Well, maybe that was just the media hoping for a fight, but it was sure reinforced by his campaign. In any case, Sanders went ballistic, and in the face of evidence he simply doubled down before kinda-sorta tapering off. Because Hillary did no such thing.
This time, it really is coming right from his campaign people to him and from him to the world. His acolytes here are beside themselves with a kind of ecstasy. When it comes out that Sanders at best misunderstood the nature of the conference, what does he do? He doubles down again.
Something is wrong with the Bernie Sanders campaign advisors, and with his management of them. This worries me. If it's coming from the top (i.e. Sanders himself), it is a real oh-shit moment.
Watch the birdie
"Keep sending money, kids!"
So it's taken me awhile to get up-to-speed on this late-breaking story, and now I understand the point of contention: Sanders indicated to Joy Behar that he was meeting with the Pope (his "Yup" when, in fact, it's unclear if he will meet the Pope in the course of delivering his speech.
Per The New York Times:
Mr. Sanders did not initially correct interviewers who suggested that he would meet with the Pope, but he later clarified that he had not confirmed whether the two men would actually meet.
So that's the whole story. Huh. Now I understand what has you Hillary supporters so enraged. Yes, I think this situation should be investigaged by a congressional committee--this may, in fact, rise to the level of a war crime.
I'm horrified. LOL.
If a "Yup," followed by clarifications, has got you up in arms, maybe you need to log off, get outside, and get some fresh air. Just an idea.
It was a one-word lie in the form of a "Yup" uttered in the midst of a TV interview's crosstalk.
The Sanders campaign has subsequently made clear that whether Senator Sanders will have a chance to meet the Pope is unclear.
Doesn't seem that big of a deal to me, frankly. You're free, of course, to carry on with your outrage.
Bernie Sanders is attending a Vatican conference on social justice; Hillary Clinton is not.
Sucks to be you.
And as another poster in this thread has already asked, you guys are aware, aren't you, that the Pope doesn't issue invitations himself? He has people for that.
Oh, and one other thing: Several of you guys seem confused on the offices of president and chancellor. As several news stories have already stated, the chancellor of PASS, Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo, is the superior of the president, Margaret Archer. Per the PASS bylaws, the role of president is largely ceremonial, and entails banging the gavel at the beginning and ending of meetings and making introductory remarks. The real work gets done by the chancellor. Ask yourself this (to cite one example of many): Who are you familiar with: The German president, Joachim Gauck? Or the German chancellor, Angela Merkel?
The organizer of the event has left open the possibility that Senator Sanders will be given the opportunity to speak. Try to keep up.
Facts are meaningless when it comes to the saint.
Or perhaps somehow it went over your head? 
The organizer of the event has left the possibility open that Senator Sanders will be given an opportunity to speak. Go back and read my post since you seem to have missed that on the first read.
Sanders who said "Yup" when the View ladies asked him if he was going to meet the Pope.
It burns.
Wait, wait ... that sounds familiar. Hasn't he already done something like that??
It will truly be a miracle if Bernie meets the Pope on the 15th as Pope Francis is scheduled to be in Greece on the 14th and the 15th. But hey....some people think that Bernie can walk on water maybe he'll walk all the way to Lesbos!
There is plenty of pandering in politics. This is just a really expensive and time consuming version of Ted Cruz visiting the Matzo bakery!
He's actively trying to get the Pope to see him now? haha nope.
He said something that may or may not be incorrect, he's not trying to make anything true.
Most people get that. Children too.
I said that if anything, it's an incorrect statement at best and a white lie at worst. Unless of course he does end up meeting the pope at which point, it's true.
Know what's worse than white lies?
White noise machines. Your candidate actively hides her words from the press. I think that's a bit more concerning than a possibly incorrect assumption made by Bernie.
Priorities. Even kids have them.
Unfortuntately for you, it doesn't. And you still don't seem to understand that it's possible for a superior to assist a subordinate. Oh well. It appears you've dug in your heels on this one.
And yes, it is a Vatican conference, despite your attempt to spin otherwise. Here's a clue for you. Guess who founded PASS? Pope John Paul II. Guess who provides funding for it? The Vatican. Guess which seal appears on all its correspondence? The Vatican Seal.
But I'm sure your information is, somehow, more accurate than the National Catholic Reporter and the event, somehow, isn't a Vatican conference.
http://ncronline.org/news/politics/bernie-sanders-set-attend-vatican-conference-john-paul-ii-encyclical
... and I have no expectation of being able to get you to admit error.
Apparently, you have seen the light on your other error about whether or not Senator Sanders is attending a Vatican conference, so I suppose that's progress.
Lastly, I'll concede one thing: I have, indeed, spent way too much time on this topic. I'm off now to get another coffee and celebrate Bernie's win in Wyoming. What is that, now: Seven states in a row? Eight? I forget, honestly.
In the meantime, I'll just keep pointing out your errors and spin.
1. If you really want to be the only individual who claims that Senator Sanders isn't attending a Vatican conference, you're welcome to claim that turf. I mean, heck, there are people out there who claim that Barack Obama was born in Kenya, and no one can convince them otherwise. The fact that PASS was founded by Pope John Paul II, its leaders are appointed by the Pope, it receives funding from the Vatican, and it's located in Vatican City clearly carries no weight with you. So, congratulations. You've made yourself a bubble.
2. I'm even more impressed, albeit not favorably, with your inability to grasp the difference between a chancellor and a president. I don't think you understand something rather basic here: The Vatican is a religious organization, and PASS was created by the Vatican. Are you with me so far? Good. Monsignor Marcelo Sánchez Sorondo is a Bishop in the Roman Catholic Church and a close advisor to the current Pope, a fellow Argentinian. He was appointed chancellor of PASS by its founder, Pope John Paul II, 22 years ago. Margaret Archer has been in office less than two years and will be replaced by another academic in three. She is a layperson, which means she holds no office in the Roman Catholic Church. If you honestly think that a Pope would make a layperson the superior of a Bishop, then maybe you need to pause a bit and rethink that.
Numerous organizations have stated that Sorondo is Archer's superior, yet you somehow think you are better informed due to your misreading of the verb assist in the PASS bylaws. I've explained to you repeatedly, to no effect, that in organizations that have both a president and a chancellor, the role of president is largely ceremonial and that the chancellor has the real authority, as in the example of Germany's president, Joachim Gauck (who you've probably never heard of), and Germany's chancellor, Angela Merkel (who you probably have heard of). But you persist in error on this. So once again, congratulations. You've made yourself a bubble.
3. As far as Wyoming goes, you seriously think I am, or was, unaware of the delegate counts? Please. The fact remains that Bernie Sanders won Wyoming handily, by a 12% margin in the popular vote. Every major news organization has loudly declared him the winner. But if, for reasons of spin, you want to declare that Hillary "actually won," carry on. I'll send yet another bubble your way.
OMG, I wish all DU threads were this much fun.
1. Bernie Sanders isn't attending a Vatican conference;
2. The Pope has put a layperson in charge of an HRCC Bishop; and
3. Hillary Clinton won Wyoming
... then you're welcome to it. Just understand that it's a very peculiar atmosphere you're breathing inside that bubble of yours.
As for me, living outside the bubble, I'll call out those three beliefs of yours for what they are: rubbish and spin.
Have a good night, and I'll see you in the threads.
(They came in threes, so I thought I'd be nice.)
regarding the Vatican invitation. As if it has caused a sudden wave of uncomfortable people with a hair up their butts. (I may be misquoting that last part )
Cause Goldman Sachs Rep can talk more to the point about lack of morality concerning the idolatry of money?
at the people who are being obnoxious when the inevitable photo of Bernie and the Pope pops up.
And even if it doesn't (and he got a bit carried away with his enthusiasm and excitement about this awesome opportunity, especially after multiple media appearances in a very short time) I still will have a higher opinion of Bernie working to make a positive difference in the world than any of the people mocking him on this thread.
I used to feel sorry for you because of what is coming down with Hillary and the FBI. Now I think you deserve it.
Some amazingly sucky human beings on this thread.
that resides within the Vatican. Or whether he will meet with the Pope or not. "A Vatican source also confirmed they would “not necessarily” be meeting privately. “It could happen, but very well could not,” ...me thinks thou protest too much.
It's not possible to contemplate that Bernie himself may have been still unclear of the details, and was speaking optimistically about the clear possibility of meeting the Pope? Or that he assumed that a Vatican Pontifical Academy, would not be completely different than THE Vatican itself? He was not brought up as a Catholic.
No, to me your OP just reeks of bitterness, and envy on behalf of your candidate. That Sanders will somehow get a Papal bump out of this. Its quite amusing reading this thread. Its like Hillarians, in lieu of any actual policy arguments, are starving for anything, anything that they can cling to that may cast even this slightest shade on anyone standing in the way for victory for their poor candidate that has to withstand the slings and arrows of people that dare to bring up examples of her very real ties or incriminating past statements and behaviour.
Oh...and thanks for the video, I hadn't seen that. I wonder, did his message, that is shared by the Pope, about the problem of the worship of money in American society, even remotely sink in? Or are you so ensconced with the acceptance of money having such a big role even for politicians like Hillary, that you don't even allow yourself the luxury of thinking otherwise? Is that the real problem you have with Bernie's invitation?
That's why he wants to meet with the pope.
Uh..... Lemme put that one back up on the rack and work on it a bit more. 
why isn't Hillary going? 
Senator Sanders is invited by the Vatican to attend a conference on social justice. Hillary Clinton is not.
And you ask, "Why would she want to be invited anyway? Those grapes are sour."
Oh, goodness.
Viva El Papa!!
Hanging with the Vatican is good for the party, so let's all be happy
... and said, "Why would Hillary want to meet with someone who is Anti LGBT and anti women's rights anyway?"
...wasted a lot of time from their lives on this thread.
