Kremlin's CT: Putin foe Nemstov was killed by anti-Putin forces to make Putin look bad

[uhnope]

Russia's top investigative authority said it was looking at whether the shooting death of prominent opposition leader Boris Nemtsov early on Saturday was aimed at destabilizing the state.

A line of inquiry not mentioned in the statement on the website for Russia's Investigative Committee was the possibility that he was gunned down because he was one of President Vladimir Putin's staunchest critics.

The committee would investigate whether Nemtsov was slain as a "sacrificial victim for those who do not shun any method for achieving their political goals," the committee said in the statement.
...
Putin's spokesman Dmitry Peskov also called the murder "a provocation" benefiting the opposition and said on Kommersant FM radio that ratings-wise, "Boris Nemtsov was just a little more than an average citizen."

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/boris-nemtsovs-murder-may-have-been-provocation-russian-officials-n314716

Yes, folks, the Kremlin's investigating agency is going full-on Alex Jones False Flag, saying they will investigate whether the killing of Putin's political opponent was done by the Putin's opponents to make Putin look bad and provoke opposition to the state. Such is the simultaneously Orwellian and Kafkaesque world of Putin's Russia.

I suspect certain Putin Explainers will soon start bringing up this possibility soon. Look for articles from Robert Parry on it any day now.

Notice the investigative committee mentioned nothing about investigating the possibility that Boris Nemtsov was killed because he was an opponent of Putin's. Nah, that just couldn't be.

[Scootaloo]

1. So basically, they have a conclusion and will seek evidence to confirm it

and then will come the arrests and trials.

Oh right. "Trials," I mean.

It'll be like Egypt, but with better booze.

[politicman]

4. Its funny how Russia is evil for doing many of the things we have done..

My opinion is that before I worry about what people I don't like are doing, I think maybe its best that I get myself sorted out so that I have a leg of morals to stand behind when I need to compare myself to those that I am criticising.


How any American can criticise the actions of Putin and Russia when our very own backyard is a copy of Putin and Russia is beyond me.

Think about how many times the U.S has literally invaded or even just destabilised countries throughout the world, and you will see that the U.S is no better than Russia, maybe even worse if one were to make a tally of the countries negatively affected by each of these superpowers.



It makes me laugh how so many on here and throughout the U.S can be so outraged at Putin and Russia for their actions in Ukraine, yet when it serves the interest of America, those very same actions when done by Russia in Chechnya were ok.

Not too mention the U.S invasion of Iraq which is having devastating effects on the middle east region, the U.S led 'intervention' in Libya that is starting to resemble Iraq, etc.

And if one thinks those invasions and bombings are not enough, then one needs to just look back at what I think is the worst atrocity the U.S has ever committed, Vietnam.


Think of it people, if Iraq invasion was bad as we all agree, then Vietnam has to be way worse as 2 million people died as a result of a false flag operation by the U.S


So next time anyone wants to get on here and criticise Putin and Russia, I suggest to shut up until we get our own backyard sorted as we end up looking like nothing other than complete hypocrits.

[Scootaloo]

6. What's wrong is wrong. doesn't much matter who does it.

People SHOULD be outraged at Putin and what he's doing.

What they shouldn't do - as many posters seem prone to - is act like everywhere else (especially hte US) is hunky-dory, flawless and with clean hand.

That's Republican thinking. Jingoistic, nationalist, bullshit.

Russia's fucking up. Its allies are fucking up. We're fucking up,. Our allies are fucking up. The entire world is fucking up, and the response to that seems to be that all the "leaders" in the world are shouting at each other "fuck harder, fuck harder!" as a solution.

[politicman]

8. then maybe we should start acting noble as a way to lead the way to a better world..

, so that when we criticise the actions of others, we can stand up with moral dignity and have something noble to stand up behind our words.

I hear that all the time, that what Russia is doing is wrong regardless of the wrongs that the U.S has and still does.

I personally cannot understand that logic, because if Russia is doing many of the same things that we have done or are doing, then we don't have any moral authority what so ever to point this out until the day that we can say that we have atoned for our wrongs.

[Scootaloo]

11. We absolutely should. That we don't does not make Russia right

Both can be very wrong. And it seems clear to me that neither nation is going to change themselves anytime soon. So who gets to speak on our mutual wrongness? Every other nation in the world is greatly flawed, granted some greater than others. Most aren't any more likely to change - and none will ever be perfect.

So, what then? every nation is insular, saying nothing about the behaviors around the rest of the world? a sort of gentleman's agreement, "if you don't mention that I beat my wife, I won't talk about your drug dealing"?

The US is hypocritical when it calls out Russia. Rusia is hypocritical when it does the same. But both nations need to be called out, to have their sins mentioned and exposed. And if not by each other, then by someone who would be equally hypocritical. so, might as well be each other.

[politicman]

13. if you dont have moral authority, your criticism rings hollow

Again, how seriously will I take your criticism of my gambling be if you are sitting right beside me on the poker table gambling yourself while you criticise me?

First and foremost, we need to take responsibility for our own actions first, and taking responsibility means owning up to and then ceasing to do the wrongs that we do.

Then once we can say that we are clean of these wrongs, then and only then do we have any moral authority to call out anyone else for their wrongs.


I mean, imagine what I would turn around and say to you if you criticised me for gambling whilst you were sitting beside me gambling at the same table?
Imagine how many people would support your criticism of my gambling if they were watching you criticise me whilst pacing a bet yourself?

[Scootaloo]

15. I don't know much about gambling

I know about abusers, though. Say there's a guy prone to slapping his kids around, "for discipline," like really belting them in the chops. He looks out his window and sees his neighbor's argument has spilled out into the front yard, and the husband is beat the crap out of his wife, kid-Slapper Jones has some lines, and he believes wife-beating is a no-no.

Should he ignore the situation? After all, kid-slappers don't have the moral authority to criticize wife-beaters.

he could call the cops... but a lot of police these days seem pretty prone to senselessly pummeling the shit out of people, too, so where's their authority?

Your argument is counter-productive to your intent. Even scumbags have the ethical responsibility to oppose wrongdoing.

[politicman]

17. Let's add to your scenario

Using your hypothetical scenario, I would hope that the kid-slapped after having an objection hot seeing his neighbour being a wife-beater, would change his ways and realise that his own conduct of kid-slapping is wrong and stop doing it.

Using your scenario, let's say the kid-slapper steps in and stops his neighbour who is a wife-beater, and then without a second though goes back into his house and slaps around his kids some more.

Then a passerby sees him slapping his kid around and decides that's a no no, so he steps in to do to the kid slapped what the kid slapper did to the wife beater.

on the other hand, imagine a scenario where someone in a neighbourhood with clean hands steps in to stop a wife beater, imagine how many would see his actions as noble and praise him instead of calling him a hypocrit and dismissing his actions as self serving.

[Scootaloo]

21. So the goal is to look good, rather than to halt the abuse.

[politicman]

23. ...

No, the goal is to get the entire neighbourhood to rally around you when you step in to stop the wife beater, that way, you have the moral authority in front of your entire neighbourhood to proclaim that you did the right thing and for them to support your actions.

The only way to get the entire neighbourhood to rally behind you is to not open yourself up to criticism from others that you are a kid-slapper who has no problem slapping anyone as long as you are the one doing it.

In fact doing supporting a cause whilst you are doing the same thing wrong to another cause, ends up ruining the cause you are supporting in the eyes of many.
The person you claim to be helping ends up being perceived to support your many wrong doings and thus many people end up dismissing the cause for which you stepped in to help.

[Scootaloo]

25. So, if you're not perfect, you wait for someone who is?

The beating continues while you wait.

Seriously, I get what you're trying to say. I absolutely agree that the united States does not have the moral high ground.

My position is that the moral high ground is not needed to challenge that which is wrong. A slavedriver can oppose murder, a murderer can oppose slavery, and both are right in their opposition, even if they are themselves abominable people.

If we wait for saints, nothing will be done. And anyway, from what I understand, most saints were pretty flawed as well.

[politicman]

28. we dont need to wait for saints, we need to stop doing things that we accuse others of doing.

That's the problem with doing things wrong yourself, you end up losing all legitimate reasons to stop other people from doing things that are wrong.

If I watch you beating someone, and then I go out and beat someone else, do you really think that I will listen to you and accept your criticism when you try and stop me from beating whoever it is I am beating?

And if I was strong enough to stand up for myself when you try to stop me, then I definitely would dismiss any criticism you had and tell you to go to hell and that I wont stop doing what I am doing until you stop doing it first.


Even worse, if there were passers by that saw you as you were beating someone, do you really think that they would rally behind you when you try and stop me from beating someone later on?

[Scootaloo]

29. Yeah we do, but that doesn't mandate silence form us on others' wrongdoing

really quick, I want you to think and answer honestly.

if the US "cleaned itself up," - halted our bullshit in the middle east, paid iraq and Afghanistan the reparations they were due, opened up favorable renegotiation with Native Americans (or, better yet, just followed through on all those treaties finally), and got our diddly little fingers out of Latin America and Europe...

Would Russia step back out of Ukraine, leave Crimea, and stop funding the Russian separatists there, if we asked them to do so, then, do you think? Think Putin, or Medved, or the Russian parliament, or whoever's running the show, would go, "You know you're right, our bad!"

There's a line between hope and delusion and I'm afraid that scenario is on the wrong side of that line

[politicman]

31. no i dont

I don't think Russia will leave Crimea and stop funding the Russian separatists and say 'You know your right, our bad'.


But at least we would have the moral authority to criticise Russia about its actions, and people like me here and in other countries, even people in Russia would see support the U.S moves when we think they are done out of good will and not self interest.

Let me ask you now, in the mid-east the U.S supports dictators who oppress their own people, so the next time that the U.S invades or interferes in a country under the guise of 'democracy' or 'humanitarian intervention', do you think that these populations will think the U.S is doing the right thing?

Because in the end, if you are bad and then call out others for being bad, no one listens or supports you when you try and do something good.

The story of the boy who cried wolf too many times is appropriate here.

[uhnope]

12. False equivalency

[politicman]

14. haha

Oh I see, its false equivalency because when we invade and destabilise countries, we do it with good intentions?
I mean we invaded Iraq because of 'democracy' and not because of oil or regional supremacy, etc?

Sort of like when we say we had to destroy the village to save the village?

wake up man

[uhnope]

18. to look at Putin's Russia & and say the West can't say anything because

we are the same and we're hypocrites...No, that's beyond false equivalency and gets into derangement.

[politicman]

20. well what do you call criticising other people for the same things that you are doing then?

Actually no, its not derangement or false equivalency, its simply calling things the way that they are.

When America destabilises countries in the mid-east because of national security interests, then that is the equivalent of Russia destabilising Ukraine because of national security interests.

When the U.S arms and supports rebels in other countries, then that is the same as when Russia supports and arms rebels in Ukraine.

Actually the U.S goes a whole lot further than Russia, the U.S invaded or destabilised many more countries than Russia has since the end of the second world war.

I'll concede that the U.S possibly treats its citizens better than Russia treats its own citizens, but that's not exactly something to hang your hat on, I mean just because the U.S prefers to inflict its bloodlust on other nations instead of its own citizens is really a good argument to make about morals

[uhnope]

22. you might have missed the fact that this thread is about an assassination in Russia

and the godawful situation in Putin's Russia which looks ready to get even worse with this murder. The actual fascism Putin has brought to Russia is what is no way comparable to the domestic situation in the US or UK (not sure where you're at but I notice your Britishisms and UK spelling).

Feel free to start another thread comparing foreign policy

[politicman]

27. really?

Oh so, the U.S has never had any assassinations that look extremely suspicious?

Lets compare shall we, we laugh at Putin's assertion that the state had nothing to do with the assassination of this guy because its just too suspicious to believe that Putin had nothing to do with it.

I seem to recall certain leaders in the U.S that have been assassinated over time that just seemed to suspicious that elements of the U.S government had nothing to do with it. I mean JFK is the perfect example of this.

Here you had a U.S president, not a opposition leader, but an actual U.S president that was assassinated in very suspicious circumstances, yet we have been told to believe the official line that a lone gunman managed to shoot off a single round dubbed as the 'magic bullet' for reasons we all know, and that he acted alone with alone with no help from anyone.

See, the U.S too has its share of assassinations, except the U.S puts in a bit of effort to try to cover its tracks.
If anything, if there is something the U.S has the right to criticise Russia over, its the fact that Russia cannot even be bothered to put together a credible cover story for its crimes. lol

[uhnope]

30. I suggest you go spend a week in Russia trying to exercise some basic freedoms

protesting a war, criticizing the president, publish an article supporting gay marriage and calling for Crimea to be returned to Ukraine, hold hands in public with someone of your same sex, and then get back to us with your comparison

[politicman]

32. oh ok

Oh so Russia is an evil country for these things and we must stand up to Russia and call them out on these evil things, ok I get it.

Oh btw, please tell me what sanctions or policies we have against our allies in the mid-east and around the world that have even harsher environments than Russia?

You know places like Saudi Arabia, Jordan, Egypt, etc.


Oh that's right, we don't officially criticise them as much and we certainly don't sanction them, instead we support these dictators and societies that are even worse than Russia.

Or how about Israel, where the Palestinian population is trapped inside an open air prison, where our ally Israel confiscates more and more land, where our ally Israel practices what can only be described as 'apartheid', and where our ally Israel has a green light to bomb or invade any of its neighbouring countries with us constantly vetoing any resolutions in the U.N aimed against its actions.

Yep, we must stand up to Russia because they are a bad society, but all these other societies are not as bad because they are our allies.

Is that how it goes?

[Scootaloo]

16. No, they are actually equivalent.

Russia backs nasty militant separatists in Ukraine, we back nasty militant separatists in Syria. Russia annexes crimea, our 'greatest ally" annexes Golan and the West Bank on our bill. Russia destroyed Afghanistan, so did we. There is a lot of points of equality - actual equality.

A false equivalence would be to say something like "they blow stuff up, so there's no difference between a molotov and Tsar Bomba!" or "They both have ears, so Jennifer Anniston is the same as a lemur!" Or for a more serious and relevant one, "gay people are mistreated in both countries, there's no difference!"

The things is, the equivalence doesn't matter in terms of rightness or wrongness. obliterating Afghanistan is wrong no matter who does it. Disappearing enemies to "black sites" is wrong, no matter who does it. Staging coups and fomenting rebellions in nations outside your own is wrong, no matter who does it. commandeering chunks of other nations is wrong, no matter who does it.

[newthinking]

19. I know deeper analysis seems to be avoided on things Russian related. But this isn't the investigati

this is the political response. Just like in the US politicians can often create spectacle and call for their own investigations.

The **police** investigation will be done by the moscow police (and probably their version of the fbi.)

[ensemble]

35. Per BBC

"Russia's Investigative Committee said it was looking into a number of possible motives, including Mr Nemtsov's opposition to the Ukraine war, his political and personal life, Islamic extremism or an attempt to destabilise the state."

Not exactly the Katzenbach memo.

[TwilightGardener]

2. LOL, how many Putin-opposition leaders are there, that they could

waste one by gunning him down just to make Pootie-Poot look bad? You'd think, "They can't be serious", but here they are...

[jakeXT]

3. Putin from 2012

[jamzrockz]

10. Sorta like the kind of people

who will shot protesters or use chemical weapons against their own side to blame the government. Oh yes, we have never seen that before.

I always ask myself, who benefits from xxx event? and in this case it sure ain't Putin.
Also just because you are paranoid doesn't mean people are not after you. In this case, some people would like tp punish people for being in the way in Syria, Ukraine etc etc.

[jakeXT]

24. Finding culprits will be problematic

If you can't find the real culprits or don't want to, you'll be blamed for incompetence or worse.
If you then resort to blaming a patsy and he is exposed as one, you got more problems than before.

[Scootaloo]

26. I imagine just holding on to the body will be "problematic."

[SunSeeker]

5. The same old tired refrain from Putin: they killed themselves to make me look bad.

I'm sure it was on camera since Nemtsov was killed right in the middle of a public area by the Kremlin, with cameras sprouting from every building, not to mention on almost every dashboard of every car in Russia. Where's the video, Pootie Poot?

[CJCRANE]

7. The pundits and politicians don't wait for the facts before the accusations

start flying around.

And then, after a short while, the media moves onto the next outrage.

Nothing is resolved.

Just innuendo and propaganda.

DUers used to have more curiosity in the Bush years.

At least then we tried to get the full story, to figure out what was going on.

And many times we were ahead of the curve, we found stuff out, we started to figure things out months or years before the MSM did.

No longer. Just hop on the bandwagon.

[uhnope]

36. yeah--shame, Shame, on people for thinking Putin did it

Yeah, let's wait for that famous Russian justice system.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_journalists_killed_in_Russia

[CJCRANE]

37. The interesting thing is that the Novaya Gazeta is owned by the same Russian oligarch

who owns the Independent Uk which published a pro-torture article today.

There is more going on under the surface than meets the eye.

None of us know the full facts just yet, so we react based on our biases.

[mother earth]

39. Absolutely! nt

[imthevicar]

9. Good Guess BUT,

I look towards an office outside of Washington DC, The One the Dullis boys founded!

[midnight]

33. I watched this very sad story being told by T.V. announcer,Terry Moran, and was distracted by

his Brian Williams like drama. However, the segway, that lead to this horrible story was lead into by laughing. I don't know who leads into such a serious matter with laughing. Maybe it could of been done with a little more care?

[mother earth]

34. In my view, the problem with all of this Russia vs. USA, or actually anything that happens today &

so called "conspiracy theory" (I'll leave Alex Jones out of the equation for a moment) is there are too many things playing out in the background covertly by BOTH sides, & in other areas of the world things truly are instigated by covert forces, mostly our own because we have the biggest and best and have no problem with hired hand mercenaries. I don't think any action can be taken for granted as having a clear motive or perpetrator until any and all facts are on the table.

While I don't like Alex Jones, I have no problem with his questions, his conclusions aren't what I would always come to, but the Orwellian nature of both Russia & yes, even the USA, makes things ridiculously blurred these days which is precisely why Alex has his followers. There is simply a rampant lack of trust for very valid reasons that have nothing to do with "conspiracy". People are fed up.

The changes in our country alone makes us understand there is far more than meets the eye. We don't get real journalism from our MSM, we get news that shapes and molds public opinion constantly for the never ending war machine which requires more funding so for that public approval is required, at least to go to war or widen the playing field for war. It is all PR. Why wouldn't we doubt? Why wouldn't we be critical or suspicious of motives or underhandedness to make people have knee jerk reactions. Nothing is clear these days, NOTHING.

With mercenaries, the profit motive is so great I doubt we will ever know peace or realize who the true enemy is. The nature of war is morphing, and we are only beginning to see the effects of its madness. There will be no winners of wars, just never ending wars.

[CJCRANE]

38. I agree completely.

Western media and governments are unleashing a propaganda war, not only against their foreign rivals, but against their own citizens.

We can't trust or verify what is coming out of our own media anymore.

[KoKo]

40. Well stated....

And, it is not only here in the USA but World Wide that people are beginning serious questioning. We in the USA still have to account for our being lied into the Iraq Invasion causing the destabilization, death, destruction and dislocation of millions in the Middle East which has ongoing consequences for Europe and the rest of the world because dislocated refugees are flooding borders seeking asylum and work. The Middle East invasion by our USA and NATO allies after "9/11" was followed by the collapse of the Banking System caused by financial deregulation in the previous decade leading to the inevitable corporate/banking/Wall St. corruption collapse.

So far only "hand tap warnings" and paying continuous Fines in the millions and billions has substituted for real prosecution, jail terms and reform of the system. The "Austerity" which has been imposed in the USA and now the Eurozone is harming the citizens and leading to unrest resulting in budding cries and activism for reform as inequality and stagnant work/income prospects for our youth and many others is now the norm. The 1-2 percent profit while the rest struggle on the edges of poverty while the rest fall over the edge. As more wake up to this (particularly our young seekers) we still have a slight hope/chance for turning this around.



As you say:

"The changes in our country alone makes us understand there is far more than meets the eye. We don't get real journalism from our MSM, we get news that shapes and molds public opinion constantly for the never ending war machine which requires more funding so for that public approval is required, at least to go to war or widen the playing field for war. It is all PR. Why wouldn't we doubt? Why wouldn't we be critical or suspicious of motives or underhandedness to make people have knee jerk reactions. Nothing is clear these days, NOTHING.

With mercenaries, the profit motive is so great I doubt we will ever know peace or realize who the true enemy is. The nature of war is morphing, and we are only beginning to see the effects of its madness. There will be no winners of wars, just never ending wars."