Trinity: First detonation of a nuclear weapon, July 16, 1945

[mahatmakanejeeves]

Trinity (nuclear test)

[AngryDem001]

1. They had to know....

that there was no going back to a pre-nuclear world.......

[heaven05]

2. NOT an event

to applaud, ever. This weapon that this test proved worked, is still hanging over the heads of all human beings like a "Sword of Damocles". Dark and sinister day in human history. Nothing to be proud of, that's for sure.

[MillennialDem]

3. Shameful time in American history

The Wehrmacht had already been defeated and Germany already surrendered. Japan was already defeated in everything but name only. The rest of the Axis powers like Italy, Finland (technically a co-belligerent), and the smaller countries and puppet states of Europe were defeated already.

We dropped the bomb to intimidate the Soviet Union and we used the Japanese as a live testing ground for its effects.

[EEO]

5. Japan was not going to surrender and accept defeat. If an invasion of the mainland occurred...

The death toll for American forces would have been in the hundreds of thousands (High U.S casualties during the battles for small islands like Iwo Jima and Okinawa, as we approached the Japanese mainland, were just examples on a smaller scale of how committed the Japanese - both military and civilian - were to fight to the last), and the Soviets would have time to make a play on seizing Japanese territory - where another front of the cold war could have played out (so it was not just intimidation of the Soviets, but a play for full control of Japan after the war, instead of dividing it up like Germany). It was a short-sighted military decision, with long-term considerations involving the Soviets, that saved hundreds of thousands (perhaps millions) of lives on all sides at the time, but has kept hundreds of millions (and now billions) at the risk of nuclear annihilation ever since.

My point is it is not such a black and white issue. And, for the record, I do wish the atomic bomb had never seen the light of day.

[Nitram]

6. EEO, you've summarized exactly the conclusions I've reached...

...after years of studying the history of the time. It took 2 (two) bombs to persuade Japan to surrender. One was not enough.

[swilton]

7. This is not the conclusion reached by many

historians today, although it is certainly the myth promoted by US mass culture.

Peter Kuznick of American University argues that the Japanese had already agreed to surrender. Much of the US military leadership was against this.


http://www.american.edu/cas/faculty/kuznick.cfm

William Leahy, the first Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the first naval officer to hold five star rank, among others was adamantly against this, and here are his own words.

"Once it had been tested, President Truman faced the decision as to whether to use it. He did not like the idea, but he was persuaded that it would shorten the war against Japan and save American lives. It is my opinion that the use of this barbarous weapon at Hiroshima and Nagasaki was of no material assistance in our war against Japan. The Japanese were already defeated and ready to surrender because of the effective sea blockade and the successful bombing with conventional weapons... My own feeling was that in being the first to use it, we had adopted an ethical standard common to the barbarians of the Dark Ages. I was not taught to make wars in that fashion, and that wars cannot be won by destroying women and children."[6]

[EEO]

10. They had agreed to surrender?

Not quite.

There was certainly some serious talk of surrender after the first atomic bomb, but prior to that the Japanese wanted a better deal than the unconditional surrender demanded by the United States so they attempted to use the Soviet Union as an intermediary thinking Russian interests would be to limit American influence in Asia. Unfortunately, Stalin saw another way to compete with American influence in the region. The USSR declared war on Japan on August 8th, 1945 and invaded Manchuria, and had plans to invade the home islands. Even when the second atomic bomb was dropped and the Soviets were coming at them from the other side of the world there were militarists in the government that did not want to surrender, despite serious talks having started prior to the bombing of Nagasaki.

There may have been some degree to which the many in the Japanese government wanted to surrender (and that is debatable), but there was far from an agreement to surrender (meaning both sides agreed to the terms, which wasn't possible because the U.S. was not allowing a conditional surrender (though they allowed the emperor to stay where he was)) prior to the first atomic bomb being dropped (and I have yet to see any evidence there was).

[DhhD]

13. The machine factories were in Nagasaki and Hiroshima and could keep supplying weapons within

Japan for quite a while. The countryside was full of weapons. These two cities were only a small part of the population.

Japanese Expansionism Before and During WWII.

There was an Oil Embargo/Sanctions against Japan in 1936. The Imperial Super Powers wanted the resources and share of business by taking over the governing of Japan, South East Asia, Korea and the Philippines, for the purposes of control by capitalism.

[MillennialDem]

8. Japan was already in surrender talks (especially with the Soviet Union) solely on the condition that

the emperor remain. Which was exactly what happened anyway.

It was hopeless for the Japanese. The Germans had lost already and they were the only ones that actually had the muscle to fight the Soviet Union - and they still lost.

[EEO]

9. And the Germans had to surrender unconditionally, after Goering and Himmler tried to talk terms...

This isn't a question of being defeated, it is a question of when one realizes he is defeated. It was hopeless for the Germans in 1945 yet they still fought on, because the fascist government had such a grip over the country and Hitler would rather see Germany burn than surrender. You'll find many of the militarists who overthrew the Japanese government and put it on the warpath leading to Pearl Harbor took a similar view in the summer of 1945 - we should go down fighting.

Yes. Japan hoped to utilize the USSR as an intermediary between them and the United States, but that didn't go very well... On August 8th, 1945, the Soviet Union declared war on Japan and invaded Manchuria... just days after the first atomic bomb was dropped on Hiroshima. The unconditional surrender of the Japanese (minus the emperor staying where he was) had to be forced upon Japan, and while not exclusively done by the atomic weapons we used they certainly played a role.

[MillennialDem]

11. Goering and Himmler did not have authority to talk terms and Hitler kicked them out for doing so.

[EEO]

12. Indeed, Admiral Dönitz became Hitler's successor after those betrayals of der Führer.

[HoosierCowboy]

4. An Epiphany for Mankind.

Finally something so terrible it made humanity rethink the insanity of war. The final ultimatum from Nature, either change or perish. The outcome of which is still to be decided.

Stop worrying and love the Bomb.