War is Hell, But...

[PosterChild]

But it beats the alternatives.

War may well be the worst way imaginable to create larger more peaceful societies, but the depressing fact is that it is pretty much the only way.

War, A Necessary Good

Related OP: http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024875860

[darkangel218]

1. Are you absolutely, positively sure of that??

War does not always and even most of the time beats the alternatives!!! Wtf??

I hope you're just being sarcastic, I seem to be sarcasm impaired at times.

[FarCenter]

3. War that results in a definitive victory usually leads to less conflict in the future

On the other hand, the peacemaking or war prevention efforts of the US have often led to freezing of incipient wars into long-term festering conflicts -- e.g. Syria.

[PosterChild]

6. Good point...

... and I also think that the formation and extension of the EU must also be given some thought as a counter example - although some would point to WWII as a causative element.

[yurbud]

11. the European Union seemed like an advancement until the neoliberal long knives were unsheathed

there after communism in the Soviet Union was safely out of the way.

Right now, Europeans are getting the screws put to them as we are, to squeeze every last penny out of them and into the pockets of the wealthy.

That is also why I'm a little skeptical of the Ukrainian uprising, clamoring for closer financial ties to Europe being genuine--it's like someone swimming out and demanding to be chained up in a slave ship.

[PosterChild]

15. Here is an interesting interview...

... with the Polish Foreign Minister concerning Ukraine.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/talking-with-polands-foreign-minister-about-the-ukraine-crisis-and-russias-next-moves/2014/04/17/f1811e84-c5ad-11e3-bf7a-be01a9b69cf1_story.html

My own belief is that there is nowhere in the world that is freer or that enjoys a higher general standard of living than the liberal Western democracies of Europe and North America. Russia and its "Potemkin EU" Eurasian Union are nowhere near competitive.

[yurbud]

16. austerity is an attempt to tear that standard down

[PosterChild]

18. On the other hand....

From the interview:

Of course, Ukraine wasted a lot of time. For 20 years the country was bled by corruption, by stealing of assets and by a populist economic policy. Twenty-five years ago, Poland and Ukraine had the same standard of living. Today we are three times richer.

[yurbud]

17. it is not that Russia offers a higher standard of living but which way the trend is going in Europe

If you knew a wealthy family that was drowning its children, you would not want them to adopt you.

[PosterChild]

19. Well, not to be too fine about it...

... I consider Russia to be trailer trash that is drowning its children. Good luck with that.

[yurbud]

20. the greatest harm they did their own people was swallowing the neoliberal pill after the collapse of

the Soviet Union.

Radical free market reforms actually led to a lower standard of living and lower life expectancy than under the commies (who I was no fan of).

[yurbud]

8. Syria would fester a lot less if we and Europe cut off aid to the rebels

[FarCenter]

10. By now, most of the aid is probably coming from the Arab Gulf States via Jordan and Turkey

With some coming via Sunni-controlled areas of western Iraq.

[yurbud]

12. they would not do so if we let it be known that we wanted it to stop.

[FarCenter]

13. The Sorcerer's Apprentice

[PosterChild]

4. No, Of course not...

... as far as I can tell, it is more or less an empirical work, and within the realm of sociology. As with all empirical research, let alone historical / sociological, the results cannot be "absolutely, positively" certain. I would like to find out, for instance, his thoughts of the formation and sustainability of the EU.

This line of thought, however, is an empirical extension of the theoretical ground work in political philosophy initiated by Thomas Hobbes in 1651 with the publication of Leviathan. As I've said to climate change denialists who point out that correlation is not causation: when the underlying causal principle is well known and understood, correlation becomes collaboration. Personally, I'm betting on Hobbes.

[PosterChild]

5. This "tripe" is...

... a anthropological, historical and empirical extension of one of the core tenets of Western liberal political philosophy that was originally initiated by Thomas Hobbes in 1651 with the publication of Leviathan. This is a line of reasoning that has influenced and has been taken very seriously by all subsequent liberal political philosophy... Locke, Rousseau, Kant, and, in our day, John Rawls.

Rawls, the principle liberal political philosopher of the 20th century, calls Hobbes' Leviathan the most important work of political philosophy ever written in English. (I think he would have given Kant the over-all title.)

[Vincardog]

7. Be that as it may, I beleive "War is a racket", especially as practiced today for the sole benefit

of the Monied Elite.

[yurbud]

9. Every politician should be required to read that aloud on film and then have to rebut it with a

straight-face.

Or it should be read in rebuttal to every presidential speech selling military action.

[marmar]

14. WTF?

[TBF]

21. Seriously. I would alert on it -

but unfortunately this seems to be the mantra of the party right now. I find it very depressing.