Julian Assange: the balcony defence (Guardian editorial)

[struggle4progress]

Miss A and Miss W are at the heart of this story, however inconvenient it may be for the WikiLeaks founder's supporters
Editorial
guardian.co.uk, Sunday 19 August 2012 15.47 EDT

Amid the estimated 100 protesters, 50 police, a noisy helicopter and rained-on press corps gathered in Knightsbridge on Sunday afternoon, two women were missing. They are referred to as Miss A and Miss W – that is, when they are mentioned at all in the hullabaloo over Julian Assange. Yet Miss A and Miss W are at the heart of this story, however convenient it may be for Mr Assange's supporters to elide them.

After all, it is their allegations that Mr Assange sexually assaulted them two years ago that are the reason why the WikiLeaks founder faces extradition to Sweden. It is to avoid questioning by Swedish prosecutors that Mr Assange battled extradition orders for almost 18 months with the best legal representation money can buy – before finally jumping bail two months ago. It is to avoid being confronted with accusations of rape and sexual assault that Mr Assange is now holed up in the Ecuadorean embassy – and was forced to say his piece from a diplomat's first-floor balcony, for fear of otherwise being collared by the police. Yet to listen to the speechifying from his supporters, you would never have guessed at any of this; their remarks concerned western Europe's "neocon juntas" or the political change sweeping Latin America. And when it was Mr Assange's turn to speak, he allied his struggle with Russian punk protesters Pussy Riot, with the New York Times, and indeed "the revolutionary values" upon which America was founded. This is his traditional method of argument: to conflate a number of causes – big and small, international and individual – into one, so that Mr Assange is WikiLeaks, which is freedom of speech, which holds powerful states to account; and so on, ever upwards. Yet Mr Assange is not facing a show trial over the journalism of WikiLeaks; he is dodging allegations of rape. To confuse the two does no favours to the organisation he created ...

It is commonly accepted that such allegations take a huge toll, with those making them forced to divulge intimate details. In the case of Miss A and Miss W, it is worse. Mr Assange's legal team has referred to the case as a "honeytrap"; and their own lives have been smeared across the web by self-styled followers of WikiLeaks. Imagine enduring nearly two years of that and then watching the man you believe assaulted you addressing an adoring throng on the subject of oppression ...

http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/2012/aug/19/julian-assange-balcony-defence-editorial?newsfeed=true

[Cleita]

1. And you are gloating about this, why?

You seem not to be able to answer direct questions, when we question exactly why you are throwing so many hits at this person, Julian Assange? Are you either Miss A or Miss W? If you are come forward with your story. We are all eyes and ears.

[struggle4progress]

6. This is actually a major diplomatic incident. Sweden took out a warrant and defended it

for over a year in open court in the UK. When Assange lost his appeals, he jumped bail and ran for the Ecuadorian embassy. There's no evidence that the UK is a lawless state, where political opponents are subjected to unfair or ill-treatment, and so there's no case to be made under international law for sheltering Assange in the embassy. Similarly, there's no evidence that Sweden is a lawless state, where political opponents are subjected to unfair or ill-treatment, and so there's no case to be made under international law for obstructing Assange's return to Sweden. The UK courts, under law, would have had to consider definite human rights concerns that Assange might have raised in his contest of the warrant, but Assange did not actually make any arguments or provide any evidence on such matters, in the course of his court case

Assange and his supporters appear to hold various strange theories about international law. One of the strangest is this: a citizen of country A, wanted for criminal process on accusations of sexual crimes in country B, but currently present in country C, is entitled to seek safety in the embassy of country D, in order to prevent C from extraditing him to B, on the grounds that he thinks country E might plan someday to charge him with espionage

I am sorry if you did not enjoy the Guardian's editorial, which I posted without any comment of my own: it is a major UK paper, of generally good reputation, and the editorial probably reflects what many people in the UK think about Assange

[Cleita]

9. The Guardian is a left of center news outlet and I'm quite familiar with it.

Editorials are not facts but opinion. You have been presented with many articles during your spamathon that factually contradict your allegations, so again why are you on a witch hunt for this man?

[movonne]

29. This guy is a little strange....

[cprise]

37. "There's no evidence that the UK is a lawless state,"

Honestly? They are at the core of the neoliberal experiment just like the USA (or worse, since their only major export is financial services anymore) and when it comes to large scale banking fraud, war-mongering or matters such as this, the UK courts evidently do not amount to a hill of beans.

As much as you'd like to make of UK courts, they are not driving this crisis. The Swedish police (executive branch, not judicial) are driving it under advisement from Karl Rove. Wow, how did he get mixed up in this?

What kooky, serendipitous, yet innocent power brokers this world has. And here we have the Swedish police, claiming that the US is not influencing them, that they couldn't accept Assange's request for an interview in the UK (they actually do interview suspects abroad, and their rejection in this case is a matter of preference), telling the media Assange would be at no risk of rendition to the US (and then refusing to offer assurance when the Ecuadoran embassy questioned them).

Those poor, kooky police.. having their honor questioned merely for talking out both sides of their mouth. What is supposed to happen when the prosecutor changes their story?

[struggle4progress]

38. If there were a complete breakdown of the rule of law in the UK, such that

the authorities were unwilling or unable to protect individuals from factional violence, as might happen (say) during an invasion or civil war, there might be a humanitarian argument for sheltering someone in a London embassy. That is not the case. Nor is it the case that the current state of the UK suggests that the UK government itself threatens to violate Assange's basic human rights

[JDPriestly]

53. If it were really about the rape charge, Sweden would question Assange in the

Ecuadorian Embassy. The whole thing would have been decided without Assange's extradition -- or the charges against Assange would have been clarified so that whether Assange should or should not face charges would be evident.

Like it or not, Assange has been granted asylum in the Embassy of Ecuador. That is the way it is.

I'm sure the Hungarians were not happy with the fact that Cardinal Mindszenty was in the US Embassy in Hungary for 15 years.

Recently, the Chinese were not happy with the fact that Chen Guangcheng was granted the right to come to the US after seeking asylum and staying in the US Embassy in China.

But that is the way things work in international law.

Sweden can try to extradite Assange from Ecuador. That's the solution.

Apparently Ecuador believes that Assange is being pursued for publishing Wikileaks. I assume that Ecuador saw the evidence the Swedish prosecutor and court want to bring against Assange. If the government of Ecuador is satisfied that this is a political matter, that's all that counts.

[struggle4progress]

57. You misunderstand what "questioning" means here: the Swedish prosecutor has determined

that the case has reached the point at which the suspect should be taken into custody and more formal steps be taken. Although the Swedish system is not directly comparable to those of the English law, this might roughly be considered to correspond (say) to arraignment

[JDPriestly]

60. The amount of money Sweden has spent on this case is way out of

proportion to the amount it most likely spends on other cases involving this allegation. It makes me suspect that Assange is correct and that this is motivated by a larger political witch hunt. The zeal of the prosecution does not pass the smell test.

I refer you to an article in which Borgstrom's sister Annette Kullenberg defends the Swedish love of alcohol and complains that Swedes are too quick to blame sex and fighting on alcohol.

http://www.nordstjernan.com/news/sweden/1289/

These charges are going to be very difficult to prove. Alcohol, sex, memories of a hazy morning. He said. She said. And which one of them was sleeping?

But then the lawyer has a rather interesting history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Claes_Borgstr%C3%B6m

I suspect that the US uses attacks on a person's sex life as a part of its psy-ops to undermine witnesses, to embarrass them. It was part of the torture techniques used at Abu Ghraib if you recall. Humilate a person about their sex life and you can easily destroy them. I wrote a post about this.

It is hard enough to prove rape in the context of a relationship when one or the other partner comes away with physical injuries. But here???? I assume that the burden of proof on a criminal charge is high enough in Sweden to promote justice. This would be very difficult to prove.

[struggle4progress]

61. "I believe Swedes have lots of drunken sex so Assange must be innocent!"

[JDPriestly]

65. As I explained to someone earlier, unless Sweden has a very low standard

of proof, how are you going to prove that x tried to have sex with y within a few hours of consensual sex between x and y. Unless y went to the doctor and confirmed that there was evidence of violence or force, seems the only evidence is he says and she says. The he virtually has to admit the charge.

In the US a criminal charge has to be proved beyond a reasonable doubt. Unless you have a video or a tape or a photo or some witness or some objective physical evidence, how does the prosecutor meet the standard of proof?

Courts are about proof, not just allegations. I know the result can be unfair in some cases, but generally these allegations without better evidence will fail -- unless the court is corrupt or prejudiced.

The Assange allegations are pretty much a waste of time unless there is better evidence than the alleged victim's claim.

And this is only one of the problems with the claims against Assange.

[struggle4progress]

67. The allegations are indeed best tried in Swedish court, not in the press or on a chatboard

[JDPriestly]

68. Honestly! How much clearer can I make it.

The only ways you could get a conviction on these charges, whether in Sweden or here is if you have some physical evidence or a witness to the rape other than Assange and the young ladies or you have a corrupt or prejudice judge. There is a claim, but no evidence of rape, and it is highly unlikely that any evidence other than he said she said can be produced.

What is more, Assange's side claims there is a text message that rather negates the claim of rape as well as other evidence.

The fact that bringing these claims would be futile and a waste of time for the Swedish court or in the alternative result in an extremely controversial or corrupt verdict, leads me to believe that Assange is correct in claiming that for some odd reason, the charges are being brought in Sweden for some reason other than to convict Assange on these charges.

Perhaps the Swedish prosecutors want to interrogate Assange in the absence of an English-speaking lawyer and about topics having nothing to do with the rape allegations. It's possible. I don't know how Swedish law would work on this, but it may be that is the problem. I could be very wrong about the absence of an English-speaking lawyer and the scope of a potential Swedish interrogation.

But this may be why Assange does not want to fall in this trap.

[struggle4progress]

69. ... a valid European Arrest Warrant .. has to be enforced as a matter of international law ...

Legal myths about the Assange extradition
http://www.newstatesman.com/blogs/david-allen-green/2012/08/legal-myths-about-assange-extradition

[JDPriestly]

70. but that does not mean that the charges are anything more than

a pretext to punish and silence a political gadfly.

Cardinal Mindszenty would have been viewed as such a gadfly -- very annoying. We gave him asylum.

It is precisely in these cases that asylum is appropriate.

There are other grounds for asylum, but persecution or prosecution that is a pretext for political repression is certainly a good one.

[pnwmom]

11. According to these women, he sexually assaulted them, and he's avoiding

prosecution for the assaults. Why shouldn't he be subject to the same laws as other people?

[Cleita]

15. My question exactly. He isn't being subjected to the same laws as

an ordinary sex offender. The time line proves it. The Swedes originally had dismissed the allegations as having no merit. Yet, when he released more information that made the US look bad, they suddenly had a change of mind. Suspicious, isn't it?

[struggle4progress]

22. If you believe "The time line proves it" then put the timeline beside your argument

[Cleita]

71. I think I already gave you or someone a link to Cenk's

analysis of the time line on another post. I just can't keep spamming the same thing over and over again to keep up with you. If you are truly interested there is a video posted here at DU of that. The search function should help you find it.

[JDPriestly]

66. What evidence could the women bring to prove their claims.

In the US the burden of proof is on the prosecutor and must be proved against the defendant without reasonable doubt. The process and language in Sweden will be very different and the roles of the judge and lawyers will be different, but surely the standard of proof is not lax in Sweden.

How do you prove these charges other than with the testimony of the woman claiming rape? Seems to me that you would probably only get a conviction if you had physical evidence.

[Cleita]

72. I would assume so if standard legal practices are followed.

It seems like such a he said, she said situation and unless there is another witness, like a fly on the wall, I don't understand why they are even pursuing this unless there are ulterior motives involved like getting him in prison so he can be rendered to some nice interrogation center somewhere in a third world country that operated behind the scenes by our CIA. Is Egypt still continuing to do our dirty work for us? It seems more and more apparent each day as the veneer of the rape charges keeps dissolving that the real agenda is poking through.

[JDPriestly]

73. Thanks. I was beginning to feel very lonely here.

Rape is a horrible thing, and rape can occur in a person's sleep. If rape occurred in a woman's sleep and there was no sexual conduct before it and the victim went to the doctor, then it could be proved. Other evidence could be used to prove or disprove it.

But rape following a night of intimacy? Impossible to prove without a lot of very unusual evidence.

This looks very much like either a pretext or a very vindictive means to silence Assange for a long time. It's ugly either way.

[JDPriestly]

74. It may be that in Sweden, the prosecutor and judge conduct the investigation

and that the entire process is slanted toward the plaintiff.

The presumption of innocence is supposed to be international, but I have no idea whether it is respected in Sweden. I posted something on this earlier today in a separate thread that I started.

[MrScorpio]

3. Tell us more

How about me?

[a geek named Bob]

4. MrScorpio...

While I've seen a bunch of postings bearing Struggle's comments, I must apologize and say that I haven't seen many of yours. For that, I can only use the excuse of skimming, and plead a lack of enough time.

Now that I've finished the paper from Hell, I'm willing to look at your work, and then we can talk trollishness (As opposed to wit/agitation/etc)

I know I'm new here, so it'll talk me a little time to get up to speed.... It's just that Struggle was an easy mark.

[MrScorpio]

5. Up at the upper left corner is a Google search window, type my user name in there and have at it

If you dare, critique my posts and don't hold anything back, I can take it.

Looking forward to this.

[Cleita]

7. Welcome to DU. n/t

[Odin2005]

8. THERE WAS NO RAPE.

The women wanted to make him take an STD test.

[struggle4progress]

10. I do not know how you would know the actual facts in this case. Perhaps you have ESP?

Let me say that I myself gave up my own ESP decades ago. Knowing everything about everybody involved too much random mental noise, which I did not think was worth the trouble

Nowadays, in such cases, I simply expect that, in stable democracies with very low levels of corruption (such as, say, Sweden) the criminal justice system can probably sort out the facts in an ordinary criminal case with reasonable reliability and fairness, without me taking a stand, one way or the other, on the merits of the allegations or the relative credibilities of the various parties

[Odin2005]

12. The Women are against charging him and NEVER accused him or rape.

If you insist otherwise then it is no use talking to you because you are not interested in facts.

[pnwmom]

14. The women's lawyer said in June that they want him investigated for rape.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=1158960

Julian Assange's decision to seek asylum in Ecuador is "a tragedy" for the two women who have accused him of sexual assault in Sweden, their lawyer has said.

Claes Borgström, who represents the two unnamed women with whom the WikiLeaks founder had sexual relations in Stockholm in August 2010, told the Guardian the women were frustrated and disappointed by Assange's decision to seek asylum rather than face investigation in Sweden over claims of rape, sexual molestation and unlawful coercion.

[Cleita]

16. Investigating him for rape is quite different than charging him. n/t

[pnwmom]

20. Of course they want him charged. That's why they want him to be investigated.

The women themselves know what happened -- they don't need an investigation to satisfy their own curiosity. But an investigation IS required if Assange is to be charged.

And in either case, he's not cooperating.

[cprise]

39. And so concerned are they for the two women

...that they refused to interview Assange in the UK, despite having interviewed a murder suspect and a tax evasion suspect on foreign soil in the past. So this is about how the Swedish police prefer to play a game, and they are doing it with Karl Rove as an adviser.

In any case, if this suspected rape is so tragic, then why is the penalty a relatively modest fine?

And that is ignoring all of the accusers' behavior after the rapes are said to have taken place. Or during... one of the women tried to hide evidence she was actually awake when she was supposed to have been raped in her sleep, by erasing tweets from her twitter account.

For that matter, do middle-aged men ever turn into serial rapists for very short periods without a trail of other victims or warning signs?

[pnwmom]

40. There were two different women with two separate sets of allegations,

and charges of rape, molestation, and assault. Please tell me which of the charges involved only a modest fine.

[cprise]

43. My understanding is both

Sex without a condom in an otherwise consensual situation.

[pnwmom]

44. There is no such thing as an "otherwise consensual situation"

in a case where consent was CONDITIONAL upon the use of a condom. And a sleeping woman is unable to give consent to penetration.

[JDPriestly]

56. Borgstrom is, apparently, controversial himself.

Borgström earned a law degree from Stockholm University in 1974.[1] Thereafter he started to work as a lawyer. He has worked on several high-profile criminal cases, most notably as a defence counsel for convicted mass murderer Thomas Quick.[2] With no technical evidence, Quick was convicted of eight out of the more than thirty murders he confessed to. Three of the convictions have been overturned. It has been questioned whether Borgström as Thomas Quick's attorney neglected to protect his mentally disturbed client's objective interest in being judged not guilty.[3]

. . . .

Borgström has often attracted attention with his controversial behaviour. He claims that all men carry a collective guilt for violence against women and has in this context supported Gudrun Schyman's "Tax on Men".[6]

. . . .

In 2010 Borgström successfully appealed the decision to close the sexual assault case against WikiLeaks founder Julian Assange, and became the legal representative of the two Swedish women who have accused Assange of sexual crimes.[8]

Off-topic, but a bit more fun, apparently Borgstrom's sister, Annette Kullenberg is more a party type than her brother appears to me to be. Annette is a journalist. Here is her tribute to a pastime for which the Swedes have as much of a reputation as for sexual liberation: drinking alcohol.

“To drink too much is part of our culture.”
Those words come from Swedish author Annette Kullenberg. Fights and rapes – all are blamed on our alcohol culture. Kullenberg wants to change that, she wants to see our excessive drinking from the other side, the positive side. “I think the Swedish culture is beautiful. A bit sentimental to some perhaps, but it ought to be honored nevertheless.” Kullenberg says she wants to write something “positive” about wine and liquor, and the purple plastic bags most people carry around these days. Kullenberg says that the warnings Swedes get from public authorities about the dangers of alcohol are “fascistic” in tone, and she is saddened over a comment made by Sarah Wamala, director of the Swedish National Institute of Public Health (Svenska folkhälsoinstitutet), who said retired Swedes consume too much alcohol. “As if older people weren’t allowed to have fun,” Kullenberg writes. “I suppose it’s better to pack old folks together and get rid of them instead. But it will always be like that in our country, the shame (over drinking) is glued to our soul. And nobody’s allowed to drink during the week unless they have guests from foreign countries.” Sweden will host the First Global Alcohol Conference this fall. “Time to shout ‘Skål!’” urges Kullenberg, whose favorite drink, en passant, is a dry Kir Royal .

http://www.nordstjernan.com/news/sweden/1289/

There is a picture of Annette Kullenberg on the page from which I excerpted that paragraph.

Anyway, to point to the relevance of this paragraph, apparently rape in Sweden can be blamed on the Swedish love of alcohol. Maybe that applies in the case of the Wikileaks defendant.

Anyway, character assassination can work both ways. It is a very tricky tactic because it can backfire.

[struggle4progress]

18. If the women do oppose charging him, then Assange will quickly walk away scot-free in Sweden

Here's a quote from one of the women, with a link:

– Anklagelserna mot Assange är förstås inte iscensatta av varken Pentagon eller någon annan. Ansvaret för det som hänt mig och den andra tjejen ligger hos en man med skev kvinnosyn och problem att ta ett nej.

30-åriga kvinnan: Jag utsattes för övergrepp
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7652935.ab

- "The charges against Assange are, of course, not orchestrated by either the Pentagon or anybody else. The responsibility, for what happened to me and the other girl, lies with a man with a warped view of womanhood and inability to take no for an answer."

30-year-old woman: I was subjected to abuse

[cprise]

41. Why is Karl Rove an advisor to the Swedish government in this matter?

nt

[HooptieWagon]

42. Probably for his expertise in the propaganda and astroturf game,

and its implementation on social media and message boards.

[struggle4progress]

58. "The other woman wanted to report rape. I gave my testimony to support her story"

– Den andra kvinnan ville anmäla för våldtäkt. Jag gav min berättelse som vittnesmål till hennes berättelse och för att stötta henne.
30-åriga kvinnan: Jag utsattes för övergrepp
Berättar om anklagelserna mot Wikileaks grundare Julian Assange
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7652935.ab

[JDPriestly]

54. Funny. This phrase is very familiar to me. I think someone posted almost the

same exact words in a response to one of my posts at one point. Here is the phrase.

"Let me say that I myself gave up my own ESP decades ago. Knowing everything about everybody involved too much random mental noise, which I did not think was worth the trouble"

Very interesting.

[struggle4progress]

64. Maybe not-having-ESP has finally become cool

[pnwmom]

13. The particulars at least one woman described fit the legal definition

of rape in Sweden, whether or not she realized that at the time.

[Cleita]

17. He is still only wanted for questioning, not to face charges.

He has said he would willingly face charges though if an investigation says he should, if the US and Sweden promise not to extradite him. Neither country will assure him of that.

[struggle4progress]

19. "... As a matter of fact ... this person passes the threshold of being an “accused” person

and is wanted for prosecution ..."
City of Westminster Magistrates’ Court (Sitting at Belmarsh Magistrates’ Court)
The judicial authority in Sweden -v- Julian Paul Assange
Findings of facts and reasons

[pnwmom]

21. Since when is an alleged rapist allowed to dictate the terms of an investigation? n/t

[JDPriestly]

59. I wish we could get such zeal in the prosecution of violent rapes

and abuse in this country.

I wonder whether the Swedish are this proactive if the person being investigated is a nobody and the woman is considered a "low-life."

I can't believe that so much money has been spent on this when violent rapes are not even reported to the police because the victims are afraid to do so.

It is the lack of proportion in the zeal to go after Assange for what may technically be a crime but is surely not often prosecuted that makes me so suspicious in this case. I do think they are pursuing Assange for political revenge. And it is backfiring because Assange is getting more sympathy not less.

[99th_Monkey]

23. Surprise-surprise: Assange's accusers have ties with the CIA

http://markcrispinmiller.com/2010/12/assange-rape-aaccuser-has-cia-ties/
http://www.disinfo.com/2010/12/non-surprise-assanges-accuser-linked-to-cia/
http://my.firedoglake.com/kirkmurphy/2010/12/04/assanges-chief-accuser-has-her-own-history-with-us-funded-anti-castro-groups-one-of-which-has-cia-ties/

[struggle4progress]

24. It's quite neanderthal to launch such personal attacks to defend against sexual assault allegations:

if the allegations are untrue, Assange should prevail in Swedish court

These CIA accusations, by the way, were first made in Counterpunch by a friend of Assange's, one "Israel Shamir"

"Shamir" BTW is an unattractive character. He is a holocaust denier and anti-Semite. He is known to have handed unredacted Wikileaks cables to the government of Belarus, enabling them to crack down on dissidents

Holocaust denier in charge of handling Moscow cables
Extract from WikiLeaks: Inside Julian Assange's War on Secrecy discloses the antics of Israel Shamir, who pilloried the Swedish women who complained of rape
David Leigh and Luke Harding
Monday 31 January 2011 15.01 EST
http://www.guardian.co.uk/media/2011/jan/31/wikileaks-holocaust-denier-handled-moscow-cables

Israel Shamir and Julian Assange's cult of machismo

Israel Shamir (right) with WikiLeaks editor Julian Assange
That Shamir ever gained access outraged many at WikiLeaks. Now Assange's dictator-admiring friend has surpassed himself
James Ball
Tuesday 8 November 2011 16.15 EST
http://www.guardian.co.uk/commentisfree/cifamerica/2011/nov/08/israel-shamir-julian-assange-cult-machismo

Weekend Edition August 27-29, 2010
Assange: The Amazing Adventures of Captain Neo in Blonde Land…
by ISRAEL SHAMIR And PAUL BENNETT
http://www.counterpunch.org/2010/08/27/assange-the-amazing-adventures-of-captain-neo-in-blonde-land/

[99th_Monkey]

25. Please see

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=39191

and also please watch

&feature=player_embedded

Then we can perhaps have a fact-based conversation.

Until then, I'll pass.

[struggle4progress]

26. Your first link is to an unsourced claim by another DUer, to the effect that the women

involved did not want Assange charged with rape

Comment #1: An unsourced claim is useless for establishing facts

Comment #2: I have no opinion on whether Assange's accusers are credible or not. As I have indicated often before, I regard that as a matter to be resolved by the Swedish process. But if you believe that Assange's accusers do not think he should be charged with rape, that ought to help him defend himself in Sweden. Instead, you apparently believe that we ought to be especially alarmed if Assange's accusers think he is being improperly charged

Comment #3. Your theory is, by now, completely incoherent. On the one hand, you have tried, immediately upthread, to discredit Assange's accusers by parroting Assange's friend "Israel Shamir" who in August 2010 accused them of being CIA operatives. On the other hand, to assert they did not want Assange charged with rape, you must simultaneously want us to take the women at their word. You cannot flexibly have it both ways: so, which view do you actually intend to argue? Are they, or are they not, sneaky lying CIA operatives who are trying to snare Assange?

[99th_Monkey]

27. Contrary to consensus reality

often two seemingly (even mutually exclusive) facts or claims
are actually both true.

I doubt Firedoglake would be publishing the "accuser has CIA ties" if
it were the rubbish you claim it to be, due to some 3rd party I've never
heard of, nor have any interest in. I have no reason to doubt their sources.

At same time, the video link I posted for you makes it pretty clear
that at this point that a) the sex was consensual, and b) women in question
do not support pursuing charges against Julian Assange.

[struggle4progress]

30. If Four Corners is right, then the Swedish prosecutors will quickly be done with Assange

and he will be a free man once again

[99th_Monkey]

31. Then why won't Swedish Guv-mint promise to not extradite JA to USA??

We are all still waiting for that promise to materialize, but
it hasn't.

Are you not even a little curious about why that is?


**crickets**

[struggle4progress]

33. Assange is wanted in connection with allegations of criminal offenses in Sweden. The Swedes by now

regard him as a perpetual game-player: he left Sweden in late Sep 2010, while prosecutors were trying, through his attorney, to arrange an interview with him; he was then expected to return to Sweden for an interview in Oct 2010, but did not return; he fought the warrant in UK court for over a year, until in Jun 2010, he jumped bail to avoid extradition. Assange is now a fugitive both from the UK and Sweden: they aren't interested in indulging him further

[99th_Monkey]

34. Well, you obviously have your mind made up.

Oh and btw, nice try on dodging my very plain and clear question:

"Why won't Sweden pledge to not shuffle Julian off to the US to
face charges unrelated to the situation in Sweden.?

[struggle4progress]

35. There's no extradition request from the US. If the US requested extradition of Assange

while he was in Swedish custody, the request would be handled on its merits at that time. Under existing agreements, Sweden couldn't re-extradite him without the permission of the state that sent him to Sweden, namely, the UK. So, under those circumstances, Assange would be able to contest extradition to the US in Swedish and UK courts: in other words, extraditing him to the US from Sweden would be at least twice as hard, legally, as extraditing him from the UK to the US

With such protections in place, there is no reason for Sweden to guarantee anything to anybody

A promise, "We will not re-extradite you" is a free pass for any unknown crimes the person committed and possibly even a carte blanche for any future crimes the person might commit

[cprise]

45. No it is not a free pass and you know it

Swedish authorities supposedly know what a free press is, however, and they aren't willing to protect Assange in that capacity. Karl Rove is working as an adviser to the Swedish government, and he has adamantly stated that he wants Assange hunted down.

If you doubt the bit about Rove, read this: http://legalschnauzer.blogspot.com/2010/12/is-karl-rove-driving-effort-to.html


Britain will do what the US wants, so long as there is a fig leaf (like a "dossier&quot provided or one they can manufacture. Their involvement in this affair is a net negative.

Conservative party politicians lined up before the general election to promise that they would run a "pro-American regime" and buy more arms from the US if they came to power this year, the leaked American embassy cables show.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2010/dec/03/wikileaks-cables-us-special-relationship

You should read both of those links. They indicate the executive branches of both Sweden and the UK are occupied by the pro-American hard Right. Like Rove, they don't care much for international law.

[99th_Monkey]

48. That's way too much truth for one OP. Plz STFU.

Thank you for your breath of fresh air.

[99th_Monkey]

47. well done

all the anti-Assange talking points are spelled out in detail,
or at least touched upon enough to "send a message".

bravo!

[movonne]

28. who are you...and why won't you read the facts...he said he would

go to Sweden if they would guarantee they would not send him to the USA...this has been said many times on the dozens of posts that you have posted on this subject...so I have to believe you are looking for attention...and you are getting that and you just keep it up..

[struggle4progress]

32. You are perhaps another advocate of Assange's strange theories of international law?

Last edited Sun Aug 19, 2012, 11:31 PM - Edit history (1)

A citizen of country A, wanted for criminal process on accusations of sexual crimes in country B, but currently present in country C, is entitled to seek safety in the embassy of country D, in order to prevent C from extraditing him to B, on the grounds that he thinks country E might plan someday to charge him with espionage

Assange is wanted in connection with allegations of criminal offenses in Sweden. The Swedes by now regard him as a perpetual game-player: he left Sweden in late Sep 2010, while prosecutors were trying, through his attorney, to arrange an interview with him; he was then expected to return to Sweden for an interview in Oct 2010, but did not return; he fought the warrant in UK court for over a year, until in Jun 2010, he jumped bail to avoid extradition. Assange is now a fugitive both from the UK and Sweden: they aren't interested in indulging him further

[Bodhi BloodWave]

36. can you point me to a single country that would grant a blanket pardon of sorts to

somebody wanted by their country

[HooptieWagon]

46. Given Sweden's and US's record of extraordinary rendition and torture

the guarantee seems necessary. Especially given the involvement of Karl Rove and the CIA.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

49. yet more conspiracy over an honest answer, why am i not surprised. n/t

[HooptieWagon]

50. Its fact, not conspiracy.

It is fact that Sweden was complicit with US in the extraordinary rendition of two people to Egypt, where they were tortured.
Its fact Naomi Wolf reports that Karl Rove is advisor to Swedish govt on ongoing Assange case.
And several have reported on CIA links to at least one of the women... linked several times in various threads.

Now, if you want to continue defending torturers, Rove, and the CIA, knock yourself out.

[Bodhi BloodWave]

51. i'll keep fighting for justice for the two women n/t

[HooptieWagon]

52. The two women who denied they were raped?

Is it justice to use them as pawns in a trumped up prosecution they want no part of? Or do you think thay are incapable of deciding whether they were raped or not, so you'll decide for them? What further decisions are you making on their behalf? Birth-control? Forced ultrasounds? Who they can and cant have sex with? Are you for real?

[struggle4progress]

55. "The other woman wanted to report rape. I gave my testimony to support her story"

– Den andra kvinnan ville anmäla för våldtäkt. Jag gav min berättelse som vittnesmål till hennes berättelse och för att stötta henne.
30-åriga kvinnan: Jag utsattes för övergrepp
Berättar om anklagelserna mot Wikileaks grundare Julian Assange
http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7652935.ab

[Bodhi BloodWave]

62. based on one of the only news articles that has one of the ladies interviewed i'd say you're wrong

Det är helt fel att vi skulle vara rädda för Assange och därför inte velat anmäla, säger kvinnan, han är inte våldsam och jag känner mig inte hotad av honom.

I båda fallen har det handlar om frivillig sex till en början som i ett senare skede övergått i övergrepp.

Den andra kvinnan ville anmäla för våldtäkt. Jag gav min berättelse som vittnesmål till hennes berättelse och för att stötta henne. Vi står fullt ut för uppgifterna, säger kvinnan till Aftonbladet.
*

Its totally wrong that we would be afraid of Assange and therefore not wanting charges, says the woman, he is not violent and i don't feel endangered by him

In both cases its about voluntary sex initially that later became abuse

the second woman wanted to report rape. i gave my story as testimony to her story and to support her. we stand by the information,says the woman to aftonbladet
**

and looking a few sections up under the heading 'Anser sig utsatt för sexövergrepp/
Considers herself the victim of sexual abuse' we can read that the woman in her 30s considers herself the victim of sexual abuse or molestation but not rape, but another woman(between 20-30) contacted her and told her a similar but worse story


http://www.aftonbladet.se/nyheter/article7652935.ab

[frylock]

80. how truly honorable

[HooptieWagon]

63. Or a professional.

Of course, astroturfers, propagandists, and Psy-Ops are non-existant on DU... just ask them.

[AnotherMcIntosh]

77. Google Operation Mockingbird

They say that it has been discontinued.

[tama]

75. Wikileaks and Guardian are not in best terms

Guardian leaked the password to the unredacted datafile of cables and Wikileaks has sued Grauniaud.
http://www.informationweek.com/security/attacks/wikileaks-sues-guardian-cables-controver/231600630

[AnotherMcIntosh]

76. Just part of the anti-Assange spamathon. n/t

[struggle4progress]

78. It's an editorial from The Guardian about a current event

DUers sometimes post editorials about current events here in Good Reads, and sometimes they even use The Guardian!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

79. Just "an editorial"? Or an anti-Assange editorial selected by you for your anti-Assange campaign?

So it was selected by you from The Guardian? So what?

You don't limit yourself to The Guardian. Where's your next anti-Assange selection going to be from?

[struggle4progress]

81. How dare The Guardian take the view Assange should just go face the Swedish allegations!

It's disgraceful! How dare a Stockholm court order Assange's arrest! How dare the Swedish Court of Appeals uphold the arrest order! And how dare the Swedish authorities take out a warrant against him! Shame, shame, shame! This is Assange, the great and terrible! Nobody can expect him to be subject to the rule governing ordinary mortals! How dare the UK arrest him on the basis of the warrant! How dare they impose conditions on him when releasing him on bail! How dare the Westminster Magistrates’ Court find against him! What the hell is wrong with them? How dare the High Court find against him! Don't those scurvy blighters know the law? How dare the Supreme Court find against him! Just who do they all think they are! Assange doesn't have time for this!

[AnotherMcIntosh]

82. Who cares?

Who cares what The Guardian's view is? Who cares about anti-Assange rants?

[tama]

83. You have purposefully ignored

that Wikileaks has sued Guardian for leaking password for the torrent file of diplomatic cables into public and and that by basic journalistic standards Guardian and it's chief editor cannot be considered impartial and objective sources in relation to Assange, after the fact has been pointed out in this thread.

[struggle4progress]

84. The Man Who Spilled the Secrets (Vanity Fair | February 2011)

By Sarah Ellison

On the afternoon of November 1, 2010, Julian Assange, the Australian-born founder of WikiLeaks.org, marched with his lawyer into the London office of Alan Rusbridger, the editor of The Guardian ... He was .. angry, and his message was simple: he would sue the newspaper if it went ahead and published stories based on the quarter of a million documents that he had handed over to The Guardian just three months earlier ...

An unwavering advocate of full, unfettered disclosure of primary-source material, Assange was now seeking to keep highly sensitive information from reaching a broader audience. He had become the victim of his own methods: someone at WikiLeaks, where there was no shortage of disgruntled volunteers, had leaked the last big segment of the documents, and they ended up at The Guardian in such a way that the paper was released from its previous agreement with Assange—that The Guardian would publish its stories only when Assange gave his permission. Enraged that he had lost control, Assange unleashed his threat, arguing that he owned the information and had a financial interest in how and when it was released ...

http://www.vanityfair.com/politics/features/2011/02/the-guardian-201102

I assume that a February 2011 Vanity Fair is an acceptable source to you, since Jemima Khan, who put up a large chunk of Assange's bail money in December 2010, is European editor-at-large of Vanity Fair -- and this article was written well before Assange jumped bail in June 2012

Now, there are several striking peculiarities here

First, Assange trades in stolen documents, over which he sometimes claims ownership, and he is arguing that it is for him, as owner of the stolen documents, to decide when and where and whether he releases them in order to claim yet again his self-awarded mantle as The Great Protector of Transparency

Second, Assange believes that other people ought to be subject to the rule of law and the decisions of the courts, but he doesn't not believe he himself ought to be subject to the rule of law and the decisions of the courts