Ukraine war: this map holds an important clue about Kremlin fears of NATO expansion

[Lasher]

As Russian forces withdrew in the face of the recent Ukrainian counteroffensives, the Kremlin repeated its claim that its military invaded because of the threat of Nato’s possible expansion.

This has been a constant refrain of Kremlin military briefings. For example, following the humiliating sinking of Russia’s Black Sea flagship, Moskva, in April, Margarita Simonyan, the head of broadcaster RT and a major Putin cheerleader, said:

We need to understand, when we see difficult events taking place, the losses, we are not fighting against Ukraine … from an entirely technical, military point of view we are fighting with Nato. We are fighting against an enormous armed opponent, the most powerful and in essence the only one of its kind.

https://theconversation.com/ukraine-war-this-map-holds-an-important-clue-about-kremlin-fears-of-nato-expansion-190677

I am not defending Russia's invasion of Ukraine, but this is their side of the story, so to speak. They feel threatened by the expansion of NATO.

[Midnight Writer]

1. Has NATO ever threatened Russia?

Have they ever attacked Russia? Claimed any of Russia's territory?

Russia could be a prosperous nation if they cooperated with the rest of the world rather than trying to conquer and sabotage it.

[Lasher]

4. A good point.

The answers are no, no, and no. This doesn't stop them from being paranoid.

[PortTack]

10. NEVER..Poopin knows NATO is not a threat. Never has been

[localroger]

32. NATO is a threat to his dream of reassembling the USSR /nt

[liberalla]

26. Exactly. Why not just live together in peace?

I don't understand the mindset that everything is a contest, a battle or a war. However that is Russia/Putin's mindset and so he sees conflict all around him. What a limiting, damaging and destructive way to see the world.

[Chainfire]

29. Russia considers that their existence is an attack.

The national paranoia goes way back. Russia could have peace with the rest of Europe if they wanted it.

[CentralMass]

34. Putin has reinvigorated NATO and with Sweden and Finland joining it he really screwed himself.

[Karadeniz]

33. My thought precisely!!

[TreasonousBastard]

2. Of course they feel threatened, and they should be. But,

acting badass is not the answer.

[SWBTATTReg]

9. Only in their minds (the Putin Russians) are threatened. No NATO country has invaded

Russia, nor has acted aggressively against Russia.

It's all Russia. As a matter of fact, I seem to recall that Sweden and Finland acted swiftly to join NATO after Russia started acting aggressively towards these two Countries when talk first surfaced about them joining. Then the minister of one of them said Hey, see what you did, your ridiculous actions caused this result (us joining NATO even faster).

[SheltieLover]

3. NATO was formed to ward off ruskie aggression

Preaching to the choir, I know.

Nonsense contention.

[Lasher]

5. It's somewhat of a paradox.

Russia is not behaving rationally. But this is the way they see it.

[PSPS]

8. Correction: This is how they try to sell it. Get back to me when any NATO country invades russia.

[PortTack]

12. Perfect!

[SheltieLover]

13. Like tfg seeing election as "stolen"

Funny how that works.

Bs!

[Lasher]

22. Just like that.

[SheltieLover]

23. Yup. "Reality" is whatever is convenient for them.

Zero objectivity or real facts.

[PSPS]

6. LOL. What happened to "because Ukraine is full of nazis!!111!"

This is just more propaganda. putin just wants his USSR back.

[RockRaven]

7. Except that prior to the war, Sweden and Finland had a long, proud, persistent record of NOT

wanting to be in NATO, and Ukraine was willing to promise never to join NATO during the prewar attempted de-escalation talks.

So this line of reasoning is just Russia lying to itself and others.

When one party is irrational, there isn't much to say except "they're fucking crazy and we had better prepare with that in mind because reasoning with them isn't going to work."

[Lasher]

16. And now due to Russia's aggression, they all want to join.

It's a self-fulfilling prophecy. It's their own fault but it's hard to look at the map and not understand their point.

[Martin Eden]

41. Not a self-fulling prophesy if the prophesy is NATO invading Russia

Simply not gonna happen. Eastern European countries joined NATO because of the much more likely threat of Russia invading westward.

[BeyondGeography]

11. If it wasn't NATO it would be some other damned thing

Russia is notoriously paranoid about being invaded. There are reasons for that (see, The Mongols, Napoleon, Hitler…). But post WWII, who has been the aggressor? There’s a reason Russia’s neighbors have lined up to join NATO, and it ain’t about invading Russia.

Try as we might to make Russia happy with chasing a buck like the rest of us materialists in the West without warmongering, they couldn’t resist trying to turn the clock back geopolitically and grabbing a big chunk of wealth for their insatiable leader and his circle of kleptos under the pretext of their own security. It’s bullshit. Not to mention the romance of Russkiy Mir and Bunker Dwarf’s fixation with Peter the Great. And here we are. Not because of NATO, because of Russia. Sometimes a land grab is just a land grab.

[SheltieLover]

15. +1,000!

[Lasher]

18. This is true.

To which I will add, it depends somewhat on personalities. Compare Putin to Gorbachev, for example. We are not the only ones who have somebody like Trump to deal with.

[blue-wave]

35. Yup! +1000!!

Spot On!!

[Alexander Of Assyria]

14. Maps don't lie. NATO has expanded exactly as depicted.

My solution is Russia join NATO, then the whole military industrial complex in Europe can be disbanded forever.

[blue-wave]

36. They tried to talk to Russia

about joining NATO. I believe it was during Yeltsin's time in office.The Russians backed away from the idea if I remember correctly.

[delisen]

17. and NATO invaded Russia when?

These psychoanalytic evaluations of nations seem interesting but not wise for other countries to appease irrationality.

The country that started a 20th century war in 2022 is Russia. We all need to be addressing climate change not murdering our neighbors and destroying habitat.

There will be strife enough over the warming Arctic.

[Lasher]

21. You are preaching to the choir.

I am not defending Russia. I just thought it would be helpful to understand how they think.

[delisen]

54. Thanks for posting. nt

[Marcuse]

19. The ex Warsaw Pact nations fear Russia. Nobody wants to invade Russia.

They have nothing anyone wants except vodka, minerals, etc. that they are willing to sell.

[multigraincracker]

20. Napoleon complex

Napoleon complex
The "Napoleon complex", known informally as small man syndrome, is a syndrome normally attributed to people of short stature. It is characterized by overly-aggressive or domineering social behavior, such as lying about earnings, and carries the implication that such behavior is compensatory for the subject's physical or social shortcomings. In psychology, the Napoleon complex is regarded as a derogatory social stereotype.

[Bread and Circuses]

24. That is THE Purpose of NATO to be a Threat against Agreesion

Yeah, that's the purpose of NATO.
If Putin had two brain cells he would stay in his own lane.

All the Russian people who support Putin are dead to me.

[Martin68]

25. The truth is, Eastern Bloc countries that were formally occupied and ruled by the USSR asked

for NATO's protection from Russia. We now understand that those fears were fully justified, as demonstrated by the USSR's annexation of Crimea and invasion of Ukraine.

"In 1992, Russia and the former USSR countries were offered the opportunity to join NATO's‘Partnership for Peace’ (PFP), and they all joined, including Russia. It was hoped it would be an entry point into NATO and several PFP members joined. Russia even sent a brigade to serve under NATO in Bosnia in 1995...Many high-ranking American officials, including the former US Secretary of State, James Baker, a powerful establishment figure in Washington, openly supported Russian membership of NATO, seeing it as a win-win situation for both sides. There is also critical evidence of NATO’s seriousness about Russian membership of the alliance...

In 1993, a US State Department document even designated 2005 as a deadline for Moscow’s as well as Kiev’s “accession to the bloc,” wrote Simon Saradzhyan, the founding director of the Russia Matters Project at Harvard Kennedy School’s Belfer Center for Science and International Affairs..."
https://www.trtworld.com/magazine/russia-could-have-joined-nato-but-why-didn-t-they-do-it-55561

Putin decided that he'd rather project power into Georgia, Ukraine, and other neighboring countries to halt the movement towards democracy there. Putin wasn't afraid of NATO. Putin was afraid of democracy, and the effect democracy in neighboring countries might have on his increasingly heavy-handed autocratic rule of Russia. And as Finland and Sweden move towards NATO membership after years of maintaining neutrality, we see the irony of Putin's anti-NATO policy.

[Lasher]

27. Well said.

And if I ever knew about Russia's membership in NATO's PFP, I'd forgotten about it. I try to learn something every day. Thanks for that.

[MadameButterfly]

28. Thanks for this history

I knew Putin was either projecting or making excuses, but I didn't know how close Russia itself came to joining NATO. Scary how one man's disfunctional lust for power can destroy the good will of millions and cause such devastation. A lesson we should all learn with what is happening right here.

[Martin68]

37. That was the high point for my hopes for world peace. Russia was moving towards democracy,

Putin seemed open to alliances, and the Soviet Republics were freed to be independent nations once again. Then Putin restricted reduced many elected positions like governors and Dumas representatives to appointments, and prosecuted a take-no-prisoners war against Chechnya. Putin tried the same thing with Ukraine, and has caused extreme damage to residential areas in cities and essential infrastructure. But Ukraine is a much larger, stronger country than Chechnya, and they have a long history of (unsuccessfully) defending their country against invaders. The most hopeful sign has been Sweden and Finland applying for NATO membership. They both have long been neutral, but the danger from Putin's Russia was too much to bear. All Ukraine really wanted was EU membership and an independent status. Putin cannot abide a democracy with independent economic relations to any country but Russia.

[ColinC]

30. They feel threatened because they want their tyranny to have no bounds

Democracy is not a threat to the Russian state. But it is a threat to the sphere of tyranny they've had in the region of quite a while. That is what they see as a threat by NATO.

[Lasher]

31. That's a good way to put it.

In a way it's all about Putin.

[Martin68]

38. Exactly. Russia IS Putin at this point. Much like Trump wanted the US to be Trump.

[Lasher]

39. I think Trump wanted to be king, or something like it.

Why else did he want so badly to go to the capitol on January 6th? It's the only thing I can figure.

And by the way, he still wants to be king.

[3Hotdogs]

40. What is the nation, unnamed, north of Ukraine?

What happened to Austria?

[Lasher]

43. Belarus

Austria is off the map to the west.

[3Hotdogs]

47. Off the map and to the west......

How da fuck did they move an entire country?

[Lasher]

50. Belarus is the unnamed country north of Ukraine.

Austria is the one that is off the map and to the west.

You must be shitting me. Bye.

[3Hotdogs]

52. It was meant as humor.

[FreepFryer]

42. bullies react harshly when they sense their dominance and influence wane. fuck their feelings (nt)

[Hekate]

44. When you say "this is their side of the story," consider the honesty of Tucker Carlson please. Also...

Consider how Russia co-opted Trump some 40 years ago and groomed him relentlessly.

Consider that Russia has centuries of practice in autocracy, spying on its own people (and others), and in telling its own people what to think and what to say. Now the propaganda is at an ever more sophisticated level.

That old-school map is a lie. It shows NATO aggressively moving in on poor peaceful Mother Russia from every direction.

Putin, born and bred at the KGB, will say anything and do anything if he thinks he can reassemble the USSR. He’s been taking lands back for some time. He took Crimea and NATO did nothing that I recall. I read some amazing and persistent appeasement posts here.

Then when Putin gathered his army along the borders and coast of Ukraine, again what did NATO do? And again I read amazing calls for appeasement. Ukraine had done nothing to provoke this, but they are fighting back admirably and honorably — and thank gods Biden is supporting Zelenskyy and has persuaded Congress to send arms. Appeasement never works against Putin. Or Stalin. Or Hitler.

But what is Putin doing with this territory he wants so much? Bombing it back to the Stone Age, to borrow a phrase. Demonizing its people and giving Russian troops the go-ahead for widespread rape and torture.

Appeasement never works.

[Lasher]

45. I beg your pardon, the map is not a lie.

It is unvarnished truth. I'm sorry you can't see that.

It would have been easier for NATO to have helped Ukraine more, if they had been a member of that organization. They were not, and still aren't.

I have not once suggested that we should try to appease Russia. I am not defending them. I am just trying to communicate.

[roody]

46. Reagan and Gorbechev agreed to no

NATO expansion.

[lees1975]

49. NATO is a defensive alliance

and belonging to it in the past has been an attraction to small countries which feel threatened by possible Russian aggression which the Russians have demonstrated on more than one occasion.

That map represents places where Russian aggression has been a threat. No aggressive, imperialist ambitions in Russia, no need for NATO. It's a ball that's been in their court since the end of World War 2.

[usajumpedtheshark]

53. Nothing justifies Russia's attack on Ukraine. Russia lost millions in WWI & II and the Stalin puges

which feeds their paranoia but apparently has no effect on their empathy.