Salon: The left has an Islam problem

[ericson00]

Last edited Thu Nov 19, 2015, 07:15 AM - Edit history (1)

But there’s a broader and more nuanced conversation to be had about Islamic extremism, one free of religious tribalism and ideological bias. And that conversation is about specific ideas, ideas that are operative in groups like ISIS and Boko Haram.

We’re defending the gay Muslims being hurled off of rooftops; we’re defending the young girls being pelted with battery acid for the crime of receiving an education; we’re defending the freethinkers and the secularists and the advocates for equality and free speech in the Muslim world, who are, in almost every way, braver and more important than their Western counterparts.

There’s a persistent taboo on the Left which demands that every incident of terror be attributed to American foreign policy. Terrorism is a hydra-headed problem, and it’s not reducible to a single cause – religion and politics and economics and foreign policy and institutional corruption are critical variables. Does America’s history of looting and corruption in the Middle East matter? Absolutely. Is the world and the region currently paying the price for the West’s self-interested partitioning of the Middle East after World War I? Without question. But Islamists aren’t killing cartoonists because the U.S. invaded Iraq. And ISIS isn’t exterminating the Yazidis because of America’s sordid relationship with Saudi Arabia...

This is a real problem, and it’s not reducible entirely to Eurocentrism or Western imperialism or neoconservative aggression or illegal and murderous drone strikes – although these things are real and matter a great deal. And it’s not “Islamophobic” to admit this.

link: http://www.salon.com/2015/11/17/the_left_has_an_islam_problem_if_liberals_wont_come_to_terms_with_religious_extremism_the_xenophobic_right_will_carry_the_day/

[Spitfire of ATJ]

1. Funny how the leaders are rich while the people who blow themselves up are poor.

[ericson00]

2. spectacular point! but "imperialism" tho, so its OK

tho seriously, this topic shoulda been broached long ago. The head-in-the-sand mentality and/or the constant deflecting and diminishing fears could very well affect the progressives' place in America, politically and culturally, not withstanding in 2016. Both up and especially downticket.

Aside from electoral politics, it is just plain wrong how the left could go so long ignoring it. But better late than never. I'm gonna tweet the article to Hillary, the DNC, and several others today. I hope people who are likeminded join me!

[Spitfire of ATJ]

15. I see the problem a matter of who we prop up too....

Imagine if some powerful foreign country came here and figured since we're a mostly Christian nation we should have no problem having Pat Robertson installed as dictator for life.

He's rich but can be bribed and he can spew propaganda.

Poyfect!

[independentpiney]

18. Rich mans war. poor mans fight as always

Ali was the second son of a second son
Grew up in Gaza throwing bottles and rocks when the tanks would come
Ain't nothin' else to do around here just a game children play
Somethin' 'bout livin' in fear all your life makes you hard that way

He answered when he got the call
Wrapped himself in death and praised Allah
A fat man in a new Mercedes drove him to the door
Just another poor boy off to fight a rich man's war

Steve Earle

[cpwm17]

3. you ain't got no link

[PADemD]

4. Link?

[ericson00]

5. my bad, its there now

happy reading!

[Demeter]

6. What do you mean, We?

Talk about putting words in our mouths.

[Nitram]

10. My reaction exactly. I don't blame U.S foreign policy for all of it.

But I acknowledge that it is one of the factors that has led to our current situation. Overthrowing a democratically elected government in Iran, supporting Israel 100% in spite off illegal settlements in Palestinian territory, etc. are most certainly a factor. But there are obviously other very important factors at work. No intelligent liberal would be that minimalist.

[Fairgo]

7. Wicked problem, wicked race, wicked history

The Hydra metaphor works better than its use here. For every head that is removed through violence, two more heads take its place. Radically violent extremists are a symptom, not a cause. Of course, you have to deal with the wolf at the door...the debased animal driven mad by deprivation, humiliation, and pain. Deeper yet, you cannot turn your back on a culture driven mad by generations of the same. But if you ever tire of killing the hydra, stop birthing them. And that's the cosmic joke. Creating monsters to fight is our cottage industry. It's how we control our own populace. It's how international corporations run the world through shadow government. Its how the rich get richer, and hand you a flag (made in china) to wave at the vet in the wheelchair. So where is the evil? Read Zinn. It's everywhere. Its roots are money and power, terrorism is its bitter fruit.

[deutsey]

8. +1

[bemildred]

9. No we do not, and further Sean can fuck off.

Sean has a Islam problem, he's a bigot.

[Jefferson23]

11. +10. Thank you. n/t

[phantom power]

12. What is with the liberal concern trolling?

I think yesterday's liberal concern trolling was from the same user.

[bemildred]

13. Most of the time I hardly see it, it's such transparent twaddle.

"Why up is really down, very very down."

[wilsonbooks]

16. Bingo!

[closeupready]

19. Thank you.

[Laughing Mirror]

14. Unworthy Victims: Western Wars Have Killed Four Million Muslims Since 1990

The report conducts a critical review of previous death toll estimates of “war on terror” casualties. It is heavily critical of the figure most widely cited by mainstream media as authoritative, namely, the Iraq Body Count (IBC) estimate of 110,000 dead. That figure is derived from collating media reports of civilian killings, but the PSR report identifies serious gaps and methodological problems in this approach.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/11338980

from the Physicians for Social Responsibility Body Count report:

Officially ignored are casualties, injured or killed, involving enemy combatants and civilians. This, of course, comes as no surprise. It is not an oversight but a deliberate omission. The U.S. authorities have kept no known records of such deaths. This would have destroyed the arguments that freeing Iraq by military force from a dictatorship, removing Al-Qaeda from Afghanistan and eliminating safe-havens for terrorists in Pakistan’s tribal areas has prevented terrorism from reaching the U.S. homeland, improved global security and advanced human rights, all at “defendable” costs.

However, facts are indeed stubborn. Governments and civil society know now that on all counts these assertions have proved to be preposterously false. Military battles have been won in Iraq and Afghanistan but at enormous costs to human security and trust among nations. One must not forget the financial costs. The 21st century has seen a loss of innocent civilian life at an unprecedented scale, especially in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Nobody should even dare to ask the question whether it was worth it! As independent U.S. journalist Nir Rosen noted,
“the hundreds of thousands of dead Iraqis are not better off, [...] the children who lost their fathers aren’t better off, [...] the hundreds and thousands of refugees are not better off.”

The IPPNW Body Count publication must be seen as a significant contribution to
narrowing the gap between reliable estimates of victims of war, especially civilians
in Iraq, Afghanistan and Pakistan and tendentious, manipulated or even fraudu-
lent accounts. These have in the past blurred the picture of the magnitude of
death and destitution in these three countries. Subjective and pre-conceived re-
porting certainly is a serious matter. This includes the dissemination of deliberate-
ly falsified information. In the context of the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, there are
many examples of manipulated “facts.” The U.S. Department of Defense’s short-
lived (2001/02) Office of Strategic Influence (OSI) is one stark example of gov-
ernment-generated mis- and dis-information meant to influence public opinion in
supporting its Iraq policies.

http://www.psr.org/assets/pdfs/body-count.pdf

[muriel_volestrangler]

17. He'd have a better case about "commentators on the Left" if he could point to more than one

but all he can link to is one piece also in Salon.

The reaction on the Left that I saw, ie on DU, was, on the whole, to disagree with Norton:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1218217438
http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016136987
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10027345923

[closeupready]

20. Maybe he's angling for a talk show on a news channel?

Or has a book coming out. So as with Ann Coulter or Bill Maher, what matters is not what is factual; what matters is making people giggle, making excuses for their bigotry.