War in Ukraine: Who Wants War? And Who Doesn’t?

[polly7]

by William Boardman / February 12th, 2015

“Russian aggression” – the bad faith mantra of dishonest brokers

Just as NATO allies Germany and France were undertaking a peace initiative with Russia and Ukraine, U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry turned up in Kiev at the same time, seeking to poison the talks before they started by spouting yet again the ritual U.S. accusation of “Russian aggression.” The incantation is meaningless without context. Its purpose is mesmerize a false consciousness. “Russian aggression” may or may not exist in the events of the past year, just like “Russian self-defense.” Reporting on the ground has been too unreliable to support any firm analysis, never mind the provocative “Russian aggression” the U.S. brandishes as a virtual call for war.

All signatories must take Minsk accord seriously to avoid war

It’s hard to find anyone who doesn’t urge compliance with the Minsk Agreement, even if that means different things to different people. Neither side in Ukraine has come close to significant compliance for any length of time. Poroshenko calls for the ceasefire, but omits the international monitoring called for in the agreement. He calls for closing the border with Russia, which is NOT part of the agreement. When he calls for the withdrawal of foreign troops, he omits mention of NATO. When he refers to elections, he omits Kiev’s failure to pass the legislation it promised, and he omits the elections that have already been held in the Republics of Donetsk and Luhansk [see “Election Note” at the end of this article]. Poroshenko also omits amnesty for separatists, improving humanitarian conditions in the region, and the recovery program, all of which are part of the Minsk Agreement.

Remember how the present Ukraine crisis came about? In the fall of 2013, Ukraine was weighing a political, economic choice between a European proposal requiring exclusivity (and implying future NATO membership) and a somewhat more open Russian proposal (with no military alliance component). In Ukraine, as politically divided as ever, the western population yearned for Europe, the eastern population was content with Russia. When the legitimate, democratically-elected Ukraine government rejected the European offer, protesters mostly from western Ukraine launched the months-long Euro-Maidan demonstrations in Kiev (presumably with the connivance of the U.S. and others). In time, including on the scene visits from Biden (whose son reportedly has significant economic interests in Ukraine) and Nuland (with her cookies for the mob), the Maidan evolved into the coup d’etat that produced the current Ukraine government.

Election Note [see above]: The Donetsk and Luhansk elections held November 2 were supported by Russia and rejected as illegitimate by Ukraine, as well as spokespersons for the European Union, Germany and others in the west. The election results mostly confirmed the local authority already in place, including the chief executive and parliamentary majorities in both Republics, which were popularly approved in referendums in May. An OSCE spokesperson called the November elections a violation of the spirit and letter of the Minsk Agreement, which seemed to contemplate such elections taking place on December 7, under Ukrainian law. Ukraine had excluded Donetsk and Luhansk from its presidential election in May and its parliamentary election in October. The last apparently legitimate presidential election held in Ukraine chose Viktor Yanukovych president in February 2010. Yanukovych, whose support reached 90% of the vote in some districts of Donetsk and Luhansk, was forced from office in February 2014 by the coup that emerged from the Maidan protest. Ukraine has almost 34 million voters in all, of which more than 5 million are (or were) in Luhansk and Donetsk. Another 1.8 million voters in Crimea have not taken part in the 2014 elections outside Crimea.

Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/02/war-in-ukraine-who-wants-war-and-who-doesnt/

[Duckhunter935]

1. well here is at least one is a lie

Ukraine had excluded Donetsk and Luhansk from its presidential election in May and its parliamentary election in October.

The "pro-Russians" destroyed the ballot boxes preventing a vote in some areas and threatened poll workers and voters with death.
?

Many areas in government held Donetsk and Luhansk did and were able to vote. In the areas that were prevented from voting in the parliamentary election, those seats were not filled and left open till free and fair elections could be held.

A total of 2,321 international observers were registered to monitor the election.
Local election watchdogs, international observers, the European Union and Russia cited no serious election violations and were generally pleased with the election.

On 2 September the Central Election Commission of Ukraine announced that voters from Crimea (including Sevastopol) would not be able to vote for the 12 Crimean constituencies.[1][14] On 25 October (one day before the election) the Central Election Commission of Ukraine announced that there will also be no voting in 9 constituencies in Donetsk Oblast and 6 constituencies in Luhansk Oblast (the Donbass region of Eastern Ukraine).[1] Because of this 27 seats of the 450 seats in parliament will remain unfilled.[1] On 24 October it was estimated by the democratic watchdog OPORA that 4.6 million Ukrainians will be unable to vote – 1.8 million in Crimea and the city of Sevastopol, 1.6 million in Donetsk Oblast and 1.2 million in Luhansk Oblast.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ukrainian_parliamentary_election,_2014#cite_note-OporaaOV-20

[swilton]

2. Great Article

Thanks for posting!

[polly7]

25. You're welcome, swilton. nt.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

3. Pretty sure Ukraine wants war with the Pro-Russia seperatists

and it's aggressor Russia. But who wouldn't want to defend their homefront?

[swilton]

4. There is a difference between defense of the homefront

and ethnic cleansing of one's neighbors.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

5. Russia is the aggressor here.

It's quite obvious to ANYONE who doesn't watch RT. Putin wants his precious Soviet Union back.

[polly7]

7. Wrong. Completely and proven over and over .............. wrong. nt.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

10. Except that it's not.

If you wanna keep humping Putin's leg, that's fine. But expect blowback from the reality-based community.

[polly7]

21. Humping Putin's leg? What a pig you are. Yuck. nt.

[polly7]

24. Well at least you have your supporters, lol.

Except that it's not.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1016&pid=114251

REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

YOUR COMMENTS

Sick of this crap. Rude, over-the-top and inappropriate.

JURY RESULTS

A randomly-selected Jury of DU members completed their review of this alert at Fri Feb 13, 2015, 06:27 PM, and voted 2-5 to LEAVE IT ALONE.

Juror #1 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #3 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Rude. He could have disagreed more reasonably.
Juror #4 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I'm sick of the crap that gets posted on DU from Putin lovers! You can dish it out but you can't take it. LEAVE IT ALONE!
Juror #5 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: I personally am sick of crap like the OP...people like this poster should be banned...it's an embarrassment.
Juror #6 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #7 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Quit whining and defend your stance. This just wastes everyone's time.

I should be banned - 'Putin lover' (lmao, I was supposed to have Hussein's babies too) - I suggest you pm the administrators to get this done. Whatever they decide, I'll be fine with .... no worries.

"quit whining and defend your stance" ........... you bet I will! Just as I did for Iraq and Libya, and do for Venezuela and Palestine. Good advice, but not needed.

[Duckhunter935]

11. No it is not and you know it if

you get your news from other sources than RT and Sputnik

[polly7]

15. I've never got an article from RT and Sputnik, so wtf

are you yammering about?

And yes, it is wrong. As most people able to read and judge articles from all over the world know. But keep relying on Fox, I'm sure it's plenty informative for what you try to do here.

[swilton]

38. I've done more than listen to RT

for example studying Russian history and government and politics at two graduate schools +++++ worked the Russian account for the Federal Government for more than 30 years.

You might benefit from listening to sources other than war-mongering MSM who interview no sources other than those supporting the military industrial complex and corporations who benefit from Ukraine's destabilization. Besides RT there are also

The Real News Network
Democracy Now
as well as respected academics such as Stephen F. Cohen and John Mearsheimer in addition to Colin Powell's former aide Larry Wilkerson

People on this website can recommend other sources to you

And I may ask you to name one country that has benefitted from US interventions towards the goal of 'democracy building'....

[Dr Hobbitstein]

40. So you stand with the aggressor?

The same aggressor that shot down a civilian plane, I might add.

[swilton]

42. I don't employ labels supplied

by inane, witless journalists who earn their bread and butter by reading talking points.

[polly7]

41. Very impressive.

I'm glad to know such intelligent and informed people know what's really happening.

[Duckhunter935]

13. You mean like Russis did

in Crimea?

[polly7]

17. Omg .....

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=edit&forum=1016&thread=114130

German Sociologists on Crimea’s Choice

by Konstanin Kosaretsky / February 11th, 2015

The attitudes of Crimeans were studied in January 2015. This representative sample included 800 respondents living on the peninsula, from all age and social categories. The poll had an error margin of 3.5%.

In answer to the most important question: “Do you endorse Russia’s annexation of Crimea?” 82% of the respondents answered “yes, definitely,” and another 11% – “yes, for the most part.” Only 2% gave an unambiguously negative response, and another 2% offered a relatively negative assessment. Three percent did not specify their position.

We feel that this study fully validates the results of the referendum on reunification with Russia that was held on March 16, 2014. At that time 83% of Crimeans went to the polling stations and almost 97% expressed support for reunification.

Ukrainians continue to question whether this was a credible outcome, but it is now backed up by the data obtained by the Germans. The 82% of the respondents who expressed their full confidence in the results of the Russian election make up the core of the electorate who turned up at the ballot boxes on March 16, 2014.

And now the moment of truth: “What is your opinion of what is being written by the Ukrainian media about Crimea?” Who could be a more objective judge on this issue than the residents of the peninsula themselves? Who else but they – who have been fated to experience all the pros and cons of both Ukrainian and Russian citizenship – could better evaluate the accuracy of the information being published? Perhaps no one.

Full article: http://dissidentvoice.org/2015/02/german-sociologists-on-crimeas-choice/

"Who could be a more objective judge on this issue than the residents of the peninsula themselves?" Who indeed?

These figures are also relevant in terms of another important question. The former chairman of the Mejlis of the Crimean Tatars, Mustafa Dzhemilev, has repeatedly stated that all Tatars on the peninsula are opposed to reunification with Russia. Dzhemilev’s statements have been widely quoted by the media, which present them as entirely authoritative and undisputed.

But let’s think about that – Crimean Tatars make up 12% of the Crimean population, yet only 4% of those polled conveyed disapproval of Crimea’s reunification with Russia. And that 4% very likely includes not only Tatars, but also Ukrainians and citizens of other ethnicities. There’s an inconsistency here. Of course, further study is needed on this issue, but the results obtained by GFK cast doubt on whether Mustafa Dzhemilev or the entire Mejlis of the Crimean Tatars is an accurate barometer of the feelings of the Crimean Tatar community.

Those few respondents who disapproved reunification were then asked “Why do you fully or mostly disapprove annexation?” Only 20% of them (i.e., less than 1% of the total sample) claimed that they preferred to live in the state of Ukraine. The most common response, offered by 55% of those who opposed reunification, was “Annexations was not fully legitimate, it should be brought into accord with the international law.” Which means that, in theory, they do not object to the idea of living in Russia, but rather question the legitimacy of the transition.

You really need to trust more than FOX.

[Duckhunter935]

26. Do not watch fox

[polly7]

23. Those neighbours have been relegated to the labels: terrorists, inhuman, scum, etc.

The children are thought of as the same. Ethnic cleansing is actually GOOD if you support the 1%, austerity, illegal, brutal coups and faux 'gov'ts' who use brutality and nazi-sympathizers to carry it out.

[polly7]

8. Sorry, strike three. nt.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

9. Says the person who thinks RT is a legitimate news source. n/t

[Duckhunter935]

12. That is very true

[polly7]

19. Nah, that's a lie, as I've already explained.

I don't use RT as a source only because I expect the childish, sucky little responses, but RT, I imagine is just as, or more accurate than your FOX idol.

[polly7]

14. Says the person intelligent enough to read and judge an article from any news source.

But as I've never used RT as a source, just because I knew the 'Putinista!!!!!' crap would follow, I just hunt around for a second and get an article I agree with from somewhere else. It's not that hard. This one has nothing to do with RT.

Who are you though, someone who sees the western media as legitimate news sources. Are you a Fauxinista?!?!?

[Dr Hobbitstein]

16. Everything you have posted Re: Ukraine

has been cherry picked and ignores almost all the facts. You would rather believe that this is some covert conspiracy by America to pit a small, inconsequential country against poor Russia, when in actuality, this is Putin's MO. See Georgia a couple years ago.

Who am I? I'm someone who can discern bullshit from fact. Something you're apparently ill-prepared to do.

[polly7]

18. Cherry picked???

I'm limited to the amount of info I can post from any article, so I post what I already KNOW to be true. I can see why truth would be a problem for you. 'Putin' has nothing to do with anything I post, so keep lying.

Who are you? LMAO at your description, considering what you accused me of. You're funny.

[Dr Hobbitstein]

20. Yuck it up, chucklehead. n/t

[polly7]

22. What's with the name-calling? Did you learn that in grade 6? nt.

[Blue_Tires]

6. One good turn deserves another:

http://20committee.com/2015/02/08/is-this-the-end-of-nato/

[Tommy_Carcetti]

27. Well, that sure is a flaming heap.

Election Note : The Donetsk and Luhansk elections held November 2 were supported by Russia and rejected as illegitimate by Ukraine, as well as spokespersons for the European Union, Germany and others in the west. The election results mostly confirmed the local authority already in place, including the chief executive and parliamentary majorities in both Republics, which were popularly approved in referendums in May. An OSCE spokesperson called the November elections a violation of the spirit and letter of the Minsk Agreement, which seemed to contemplate such elections taking place on December 7, under Ukrainian law. Ukraine had excluded Donetsk and Luhansk from its presidential election in May and its parliamentary election in October. The last apparently legitimate presidential election held in Ukraine chose Viktor Yanukovych president in February 2010. Yanukovych, whose support reached 90% of the vote in some districts of Donetsk and Luhansk, was forced from office in February 2014 by the coup that emerged from the Maidan protest. Ukraine has almost 34 million voters in all, of which more than 5 million are (or were) in Luhansk and Donetsk. Another 1.8 million voters in Crimea have not taken part in the 2014 elections outside Crimea.

The "People's Republic" elections had no verifiable ballots or voter's lists. Polling stations were irregular and international observers were not allowed in, other than one group comprised in good part by right-wing radical Europeans. The organizers of the election had no interest in keeping any sort of relationship with Ukraine, thus clearly meaning it was out of step with the Minsk agreement.

Meanwhile, individuals in portions of Donetsk and Luhansk that were not under separatist control were allowed to participate in the Ukrainian presidential and parliamentary elections. Election equipment was sent to separatist controlled areas but it was destroyed by the seperatists themselves.

Seriously, do it all bother you that you have to post such disingenuous bullshit in order to support your position?

[polly7]

28. LOL. Keep trying. nt.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

29. I don't have to keep on trying. You keep posting easily discredited bullshit.

You are destroying your own argument.

[polly7]

30. No, you keep posting the easily discredited bullshit.

Sort of like your argument that any leader that doesn't stick around to be sodomized, tortured and murdered in the street or hung up for the world to see means a brutal coup didn't exist. That's just laughable.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

31. Okay, Pee Wee.

You post something that claims that people in Donetsk and Luhansk were prohibited by the Ukrainian government from voting when evidence clearly shows that was not the case, and I'm the one posting bullshit. And apparently I'm the one who doesn't know how to read the commonly accepted definitions of various words, either.

[polly7]

32. Pee Wee?

I'd try to think of a juvenile name for you as that seems to be allowed, but as I haven't done that since grade school ... I'll pass.

As to what you know ..... I'm sure you believe it.

Gotta run for a bit, but you should probably join the others in pm'ing to get me banned. I bet I'm not 'here' when I get back. So, congrats to you and the 1% in destroying yet another country. I don't know what you'll get from it personally, but I hope you're happy with it.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

33. Your style of rhetoric.

This guy approves.

[polly7]

36. LOL!

I don't put too much effort (well none, really) into responding to bull*, but hey, I thought about it for a millisecond, and your style of rhetoric:

This guy on the far right and in the middle definitely approves:

[Fred Sanders]

37. As the thin veil of Kiev being anything more than an illegitimate farce drops, expect some vitriol.

Young folk trying to flee the Kiev draft after the currency plunged more than 50%...Kiev is a fascist force propped up by some European fantasy of a NATO member at Russia's southern belly, but even ethnic Western Ukranians have had enough of the farce.

[polly7]

43. So true.

It's been nothing for a nightmare for all those who live there ........ and we have people here making jokes and calling them the worst of the worst for fighting for rights in their own country. They don't see the coup-sponsored gov't as legitimate and had every right to fear it and want to decide their own fate. Waiting for the upcoming election could have avoided every bit of this, but those who've had their eye on Ukraine's resources, including those of everyday, working people via the brutal austerity loans, couldn't afford that. We see it over and over and over. Any country not yet under the thumb of the IMF, World Bank and their owners is in danger of the same thing. That it's a surprise to anyone surprises me.

I feel horrible for everyone living there right now.

[Duckhunter935]

34. The truth sucks I know

Too bad you can not dispute those facts.

Another fact is in areas the "pro-Russians" threatened voters and poll workers with death if they participated and voted in Ukrain's elections. They destroyed ballot boxes to prevent the free vote.

In those areas, the parliamentary seats were left unfilled until free elections could be held.

[polly7]

35. Your 'facts' have been disputed time after time.

But the propaganda seems to keep you busy. That's good, at least?

[Duckhunter935]

39. By whom?

I will take the 1000+ international observers and the UN and OSCE.