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bemildred

(90,061 posts)
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 12:15 PM Jan 2015

Russia is Obama's chance of a real legacy

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Last week, the former Soviet leader Mikhail Gorbachev expressed the concern that we may be heading for round three. He said: "I actually see all the signs of a new Cold War. It could all blow up at any moment if we don't take action. The loss of confidence is catastrophic. Moscow does not believe the West, and the West does not believe Moscow. A war today would probably lead inevitably to nuclear war. But the statements and propaganda on both sides make me fear the worst. If anyone loses their nerve in this charged atmosphere, we will not survive the next few years. I do not say such things lightly. I am a man with a conscience. But that's how it is. I'm really extremely worried."

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Vladimir Putin, the savage Russian leader, effects to not take Mr Gorbachev seriously, describing him after a recent similar warning, as believing himself second only to God - a strange comparison for a former Communist leader. US President Barack Obama does not seem to have taken any notice at all. He should.

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Talking down Putin from the roof would be such an achievement. Telling him that he has been assured by his EU allies that they have no interest in Ukraine, would be a start. Confirming that there is no possibility of Nato trying to site missiles on his border in Ukraine would be even better. For Obama it would have the added benefit of pissing off his opponents in Congress. They will be livid. Every right-wing Republican and Tea Party nutter will go ape-shit, and the shock-jocks on Fox will be apoplectic. They'll say he is soft on authoritarianism, giving in to aggression and letting down his allies. But at the end of the day that will all be so much hot air when set beside an achievement that will stand in comparison - if not total parity - with the original Detente and Nixon's opening up of China.

And if Putin has the sense to respond at all positively to that, then the sanctions could be relaxed and all the pumped up Cold War warriors could warm down and stand easy. And hopefully Mikhail Gorbachev - and the rest of us - can sleep a little easier in our beds at night.

http://www.independent.ie/opinion/comment/russia-is-obamas-chance-of-a-real-legacy-30935109.html

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bemildred

(90,061 posts)
1. EU's Tusk slams 'appeasement' of Russia as bloc talks new sanctions
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 12:17 PM
Jan 2015


BRUSSELS (Reuters) - Senior figures in the European Union brandished a threat of new sanctions against Russia over the weekend violence in eastern Ukraine, with one blasting what he called "appeasement" of Moscow.

That remark on Twitter by Donald Tusk, the former Polish prime minister who now chairs summits of EU leaders, used language recalling the eve of World War Two that conveyed both fierce condemnation of Russian President Vladimir Putin and criticism of recent EU talk of easing sanctions against Moscow.

"Once again, appeasement encourages the aggressor to greater acts of violence. Time to step up our policy based on cold facts, not illusions," Tusk tweeted after a call with Ukraine's president on a response to Saturday's bloodshed in Mariupol.

The remark showed Tusk, who became president of the European Council last month, breaking with the backroom discretion of his Belgian predecessor and seeming to take sides in the internal EU debate about a possible more conciliatory approach to Russia.

http://ca.reuters.com/article/idCAKBN0KY0JY20150125?rpc=401

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
9. Mr. Tusk is of the war party, and he is doing what they do.
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 07:52 PM
Jan 2015

The desperate fear of not going to war when you really need to because if you don't some boogeyman will get you, grips them. They all alternate between belligerence (when they think they are winning) and appeasement (when they think they are losing), so they think that is what everybody else does too.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
10. Good Point..its all TALK...depends on if it's Reported in MSM or Not.
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 08:11 PM
Jan 2015

Seems, mostly its NOT in MSM that worn, tired out Americans view when they turn the "TUBE" to CNN/Fox and MSNBC.

It's all about "THE MESSAGE."

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
13. That is basically what annoys me about this.
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 08:43 PM
Jan 2015

Last edited Sun Jan 25, 2015, 10:35 PM - Edit history (1)

It's a big risky game of chicken for stakes that are not worth winning or feasible to win either. If you want to go after Putin, fine, but this will never get you there, this is fatuous self-absorbed bullshit. At least we better hope so. He was fat, dumb, and happy at Sochi. They should have left him there. The State dept. keeps saying "all things short of military involvement", which is the right thing to do with a nuclear power, but then they assume that sanctions and belligerent talk will make Putin back off, somehow, which as we can see is not working and it never will work. If it's not working on Iran, or Cuba, why would it work on a much bigger and better connected country like Russia?

Meanwhile the guys in Kiev seem to think they are going to unite their country and move it to "the West" with a civil war. That's not going to work either. Civil wars divide things, unless you win them decisively, and you will note that ours continues to divide us 150 years later. But the point is neither side ever had the means to win decisively, so there is just no way. Kiev because, well they're bankrupt, and "the West" has no intention of getting its own tit seriously caught in the wringer, Russia because they can't hold W. Ukraine at a (reasonable cost) if we want to prevent it any more than Kiev can hold the east if Putin wants to prevent it. We've had enough of these degenerate little proxy wars by now we ought to be able to see them coming.

And "the West" has proved to be too cheap to do it right, with massive investment and education, instead of massive arms and ammunition, and lots more loans of course, so we get this shit instead. Somebody needs to explain to them that just because you are the good guys doesn't mean you always win, that's only in the movies.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
14. I can understand your viewpoint on this but differ with you...
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 09:50 PM
Jan 2015

Last edited Sun Jan 25, 2015, 10:59 PM - Edit history (1)

in that I agree more with this that Chris Floyd is reporting that which many who read here might find hyperbolicand feel that he nailed Obama's escalation of what was a repeat of Kerry's bellicose language when he was pushing for escalation in Syria to take Assad out before he had to retract when cooler heads prevailed in the military and, some reporting says, with Russia intervening.

I thought this was a good read with links......but, who knows.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/1016112360

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
15. OK.
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 10:25 PM
Jan 2015

I get Mr. Floyd, but he is too black and white for me. Putin is not Hitler, and he's not Jesus either. He looks pretty ordinary to me, although from what I know of his history he is not stupid, or he would not be where he is. But he has clearly been naive at times, made mistakes, and I've never really forgiven him for what he did to Chechnya, Ingushetia, and Ossetia. He hasn't done so well at suppressing terrorism either, has he?

It is true I hold my government more responsible than Putin, but then that's what we claim, we're the Daddy, we protect everybody, we are the indispensable ones. So it we don't know what we are doing, everybody pays; and clearly authority and responsiblity must go together, or things break down.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
16. agree with much of what you say...
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 11:09 PM
Jan 2015

just nuance differences, I think.

This, definitely, agree, you said:

"It is true I hold my government more responsible than Putin, but then that's what we claim, we're the Daddy, we protect everybody, we are the indispensable ones. So it we don't know what we are doing, everybody pays; and clearly authority and responsiblity must go together, or things break down."

I was taken aback with Obama's comments. It seemed he was talking out of place when such serious events are taking place in Ukraine. Like he was stoking a situation that requires reasoned and quiet, behind the scenes, diplomacy...and not bloviating/bullying in the SOTU...setting American People up be prepared to start "Cold War II" when we are already involved, almost beyond our means, in the other interventions we have perpetuated.

But...thanks....it's good to hear your insight/viewpoint and others who are reasonable...few as there are these days.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
17. What happens in the EU is what matters.
Mon Jan 26, 2015, 11:42 AM
Jan 2015

We are more like the kid egging two other kids to fight each other, playing on their egos, getting them worked up.

If you remember, this all started with outbursts of astonishment at the bizarre world Putin was living in. Since then there have been these two completely incompatible narratives being flogged 24x7 from each side of the conflict. There is no way this sort of thing will ever lead to anything but combat. If the Europeans allow themselves to be dragged into this shit again, it's going to make WWII look modest.

 

JayhawkSD

(3,163 posts)
2. "Talking down Putin from the roof would be such an achievement."
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 12:44 PM
Jan 2015

The US put Putin on the roof to begin with.

Igel

(35,320 posts)
3. Not really.
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 02:20 PM
Jan 2015

Back in the '90s there was incredible resentment in Russia towards the West. They saw the great appreciation and admiration from Poles, Czechs, Hungarians, Bulgarians, etc., vanish. Their saw their great country collapse. And they heard all kinds of scurrilous things about their past for the first time. They also heard scurrilous things about their present.

And rejected any other reason for this than, "The West and America did this to us." They honestly believed that the Latvians and Czechs and Poles loved them for their sacrifices and leadership. The Latvians and Czechs and Poles thought themselves oppressed and eradicated most of the symbols of gratitude when finances allowed.

Russia--the USSR--was brought down as part of a CIA plot. Not because of forces acting primarily inside the country.

And the idea of the purges, of the GULags, of Stalin's stupidity in preparing for WWII, of perfidy in the Molotov-vonRibbentrop pact, of the banning of things like computer science as "bourgeoisie," all these things weren't possible, didn't fit in with the image of Russia as a good, great, proud country.

They'd also been told how horrible it was in the West. How Russia was the most advanced country economically and technologically, even as they told themselves they had sacrificed for others. They may prefer East German washing machines, but that was a sacrifice for their fellow socialist countries. In the West, we lived in penury. Then they found they were lied to. And had serious problems trying to adjust to this.

Even as at the same time privatization led to massive economic dislocations and the oligarchs, mostly former CPSU members or their associates, became oligarchs. Nobody noticed or cared that by the time Putin was elected all the negative economic indicators had gone positive. The country had bottomed out and was on the upswing. The only thing that mattered was employment and wages, which lag.

Out of this mess came Putin. And resentment over having been told lies about Stalin, having the USSR broken up by the West, etc., etc. But revanchism and jingoism, resentment and a sense of humiliation, brought him to power. Putin "made the country" economically better a month after he was elected, having done nothing to remedy things. But he took the credit and others, unwilling to give Eltsyn any credit, agreed. He promised to restore greatness, honor, dignity, and make people respect and fear Russia. He made things worse: He slighted the Poles, offended the Czechs, dissed the Baltics, and his electorate agreed with him. The relative old-timers liked the reborn Komsomol, "Nashi" ("Ours&quot , youth brigades and camps he put together. They liked the nationalism and making all those scurrilous things said about their homeland--concentration camps, abuse of returning prisoners of war, etc.--go away. He was put up on the roof in the '70s and '80s because of the Cold War, his family set him up when his older brother died in Leningrad, he is what his past has made him.

Moreover, he can't believe that lesser peoples could possibly matter. To him, what Latvians or Ukrainians think is utterly irrelevant. It's part of a game between great powers. They have no say in things. The idea that Ukraine might choose something is ridiculous on its face. Putin grew up in a society that had Communist privilege and Russian privilege, much like DUers speak of "white privilege" and "male privilege".

 

geek tragedy

(68,868 posts)
5. Putin's behavior was never driven by Obama's agenda, and that won't change now.
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 02:30 PM
Jan 2015

Putin's agenda right now is to put on a big show of how strong and robust Russia is, and to get Russians into a Cold War mentality where North America and Western Europe are the external enemy against whom all Russians must rally around their leader.

Very similar to what Reagan did in places like Grenada and Nicaragua. Except 2015 Russia is in much worse shape by every conceivable metric than was 1983 USA.

Putin can't be seen to back down, to give up anything, or even to stop his confrontation with the evil West. Once he does that, people start asking what the whole thing was about and by the way why does our economy suck so much and why are you so corrupt?

Tace

(6,800 posts)
6. Avoiding Nuclear War Would Be Good
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 02:41 PM
Jan 2015

The growing alliance between Russia and China, including exchange of military technology and hardware, is formidable.

KoKo

(84,711 posts)
11. LOL's and they say that's the Mantra of the "Doom & Gloomers" who are not to be listened to. n/t
Sun Jan 25, 2015, 08:12 PM
Jan 2015
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