Welcome to DU! The truly grassroots left-of-center political community where regular people, not algorithms, drive the discussions and set the standards. Join the community: Create a free account Support DU (and get rid of ads!): Become a Star Member Latest Breaking News General Discussion The DU Lounge All Forums Issue Forums Culture Forums Alliance Forums Region Forums Support Forums Help & Search

Omaha Steve

(99,727 posts)
Mon Dec 22, 2014, 10:34 PM Dec 2014

Nicaragua breaks ground on historic canal project

Source: AP-Excite

By LUIS GALEANO

MANAGUA, Nicaragua (AP) — Nicaraguan officials and a Chinese company broke ground Monday on a $50 billion transoceanic waterway predicted to rival the Panama Canal, but which has been a source of anger and protests from citizens in recent weeks.

Vice President Omar Halleslevens, with Wang Jing, president of the contracting firm HKND Group, said the canal will change the history and the economy of Nicaragua, one of Latin America's poorest countries.

The groundbreaking marked the start of some ancillary projects in Brito, a city about 5 kilometers (3 miles) from Nicaragua's Pacific coast where the first port will be built. Officials say the canal will be fully operational by 2019.

"With this great canal, Nicaragua expects to move 5 percent of the world's commerce that moves by sea, which will bring great economic benefits and double the GDP," Halleslevens said.

FULL story at link.


Read more: http://apnews.excite.com/article/20141222/lt--nicaragua-canal-dc7ec2fe30.html

9 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
Highlight: NoneDon't highlight anything 5 newestHighlight 5 most recent replies

LynneSin

(95,337 posts)
1. My guess is they will be utilizing Lake Nicaragua
Mon Dec 22, 2014, 11:06 PM
Dec 2014

That lake is huge, but I wonder how it will impact the wildlife around the lake and in it.

haele

(12,679 posts)
2. Didn't they originally try to go through Nicaragua?
Mon Dec 22, 2014, 11:07 PM
Dec 2014

I seem to remember that they just couldn't make it through without hitting some sort of geologic instability. Like potential volcanos, or mountain passes that were too rocky and high. The French gave up Nicaragua because it would just be too expensive to dig through.

Now there's issues with the rights of indigenous groups, archeology, and ecology. And culturally, Chinese investors only care about money and prestige; they tend to have a huge disconnect when it comes to the history and culture of the areas they are investing in.

If the Chinese can complete a two-way passage that is wide enough and deep enough through Nicaragua for their containers (and warships) within some semblance of schedule and budget, would it bring about the return equal to the investment they put into it?

I don't think so. I think they're throwing money away - and will find themselves digging graves for every hundred feet they manage to progress.


Haele

Warpy

(111,352 posts)
4. The dream has been a canal they can enlarge enough to pilot supertankers through
Mon Dec 22, 2014, 11:35 PM
Dec 2014

but likely if this thing is ever completed, destroying the country, the indigenous, and most of the ecology, the world will have moved on from petroleum to something else.

Can we all say "boondoggle?"

Well, at least we're not paying for this one.

tclambert

(11,087 posts)
5. What may sink this economically might be the opening of the Northwest Passage.
Mon Dec 22, 2014, 11:55 PM
Dec 2014

You know, when the Arctic ice melts sufficiently, the shortest route from America's East Coast to East Asia is the Northwest Passage. from Europe, the Northeast Passage might be shorter still.

 

quadrature

(2,049 posts)
7. this project will sink itself ...
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 01:04 AM
Dec 2014

if ever completed, it will compete
with the Panama canal.

in the modern world,
the current canal is just
not that important

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
9. Actually the Canal is IMPORTANT, but to China NOT the US.
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 03:56 AM
Dec 2014

It is NOT as important to the US as it was in 1914 when it opened, but it is important to most of Latin America and China.

Today, China is the main Exporter in the World at 2.2 Billion dollars in exports. The US passed Germany in 2010 to become the # 2 exporter at 1.6 Billion dollars in exports, Germany is #3 at 1.5 Billion Dollars. Japan is #4 at .7 billion (715 Million). Netherlands is #5 at 571 Million, France is #6 at 567 Million, South Korea is #7 at 559 Million, #8 is the UK at 548 Million dollars, #9 is the Russian Federation at 527 Million and #10 is Italy at 513 Million Dollars in Exports.

http://www.trademap.org/tradestat/Country_SelProduct_TS.aspx?nvpm=1|||||TOTAL|||2|1|1|2|2|1|2|1|

As to IMPORTS the US is #1 at 2.3 Billion Dollars in imports, China is #2 at 1.95 Billion Dollars, Germany is #3 at 1.2 billion dollars, Japan is #4 at .8 Billion Dollars (833 Million Dollars), Hong Kong is # 5 at 705 Million Dollars, France is #6 at 668 Million dollars. the UK os #7 at 657 Million, South Korea is #8 at 515 Million Dollars, Netherlands is #9 at 506 Million. Belgium is #10 Importer at 488 Million dollars.

Thus the 10 top exporters are also the 10 top importers except #9 Russia is only #17 importer, #10 Italy is #11 Importer, Belgium makes the top 10 of importers but is #11 importer. Hong Kong is listed as an importer but NOT as an exporter. Hong King exported 492 million dollars in 2012 exports, but only 70 Million is 2013 exports. I suspect some sort of statistical game is being played, what game I can not say for Hong Kong should be the #10 exporter not #46, below Angola and Finland and just above Israel.

Anyway, my point is the Panama Canal is more important to China then it is to the US. To exports to Europe China has four routes,

1. Through the Straits of Malacca which starts at Singapore, no ship which runs deeper then 82 feet can take this route. 1/4 of all trade goes through this channel, but the largest tankers and ships can not. 60,000 (one source say 94,000) ships go through this strait each year.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Malacca

2. Through the "Lombok Strait, Makassar Strait, Sibutu Passage and Mindoro Strait Route" (this is ONE route, you must go through all four Straits to go from the South China Sea to the Indian Ocean). Lombok Strait is right next to Java. There are other routes through the West Indies, but none are viable for large ships. If your ship rides deeper then 82 feet, you MUST take this route.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lombok_Strait

3. The even longer Ombai Strait, Banda Sea, Lifamatola Strait between the Sula Islands and Obi Islands, and Molucca Sea. This swings to the EAST of Indonesia, and then by the North Coast of Australia. This route is little used for the above two routes are shorter, but if you have a large ship it may be your best option.

4. Around Australia. This is a long route for you end up going half way across the Pacific then turn around to go back the way you came, but this time SOUTH of Australia. This route makes the Straits of Magellan look short.

5. Through the Straits of Magellan, this is the LONGEST route possible thus actual trade through the straits is small "571 Chilean ships and 1,681 non-Chileans ships sailed through the strait in 2008".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strait_of_Magellan

6. Via the Panama Canal.

7. Via the Port of Los Angles, then by train to the American East or Gulf of Mexico Coasts, then by ship to Europe. This has been maxed out in terms of shipments, but the railroads are expanding these routes. The biggest problem is that when the Railroads where built they did a lot of single track tunnels, and to increase volume those tunnels have to be double tracks, which means either to widen the current tunnel OR to drill a parallel tunnel, both cost of lot of money and take a lot of time.

The Cascade Tunnel, a one track tunnel from Seattle to the East:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cascade_Tunnel

Union Pacific completion of the Donner Pass Tunnel Improvements in 2010 (But it remains a one track tunnel):

http://www.uprr.com/newsinfo/releases/service/2009/1123_donnerpass.shtml

Its competing line out of San Francisco (Another one track tunnel system):

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Feather_River_Route

Even the Rail line out of Los Angles to Denver is reduced to one line in places. For comparison the Rail line between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia is three lines (and had been four prior to the 1960s). Given no one wants to double track the lines in the West, we have maxed out those lines, thus expansion is just not possible until someone gets around to double tracking those lines, not just using electronics to being able to run more trains more often on those lines.

8. Via Russia by train. This is actually the fastest route for freight, can get freight to Europe in two weeks, as oppose to two months by ship. This route is open but is new and has "Growing pains" as the bugs work out of the system:



http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/worldviews/wp/2014/11/21/map-the-worlds-longest-train-journey-now-begins-in-china/

1, 2 and 3, above all require Indonesia to be stable and that is appearing more and more NOT to be the case as can be seen in increase piracy in that area. #4 going around Australia makes the Straits of Magellan #5 look like a short cut to the Chinese. #8 is only for goods that getting to market is more important then minimizing the cost of shipping. #7 is being used, but the US Railroads in the American West have been slow in upgrading their tracks to take the volume required AND the present dispute with the West Coast longshoremen has not endeared this route to the Chinese. i.e. US Rail lines have been using electronics to being able to move more trains on less tracks since the 1940s, but even with the latest computers they have reached the limit and need to double tracks those lines out west.

Thus the Chinese is looking at ways to increase shipments by ship to Europe by avoiding Indonesia, the Straits of Magellan AND using trains. That leaves Canals through Central America. If trade increases over the next 20 years, the Chinese will need both Canals to get there goods to Europe and the American East Coast by Ship. I just do not see them OR the Japanese embracing trains if a canal is available.

Remember, shipments to the American West Coast can be done by Chinese Ships, but once ashore, it is AMERICAN railroads that ship the goods to the East Coast (or the Gulf of Mexico) and some ship, unless it is a Chinese ship that NEVER goes back to China, will have to take the goods across the Atlantic. If the Canal is used, the same ship can take the goods to Europe and take goods back from Europe via the same Canal.

Sorry, this canal is justified on Chinese Trade and they expectation that it will increase over the next 20 years. US trade generally runs across the US not the Panama Canal, the Panama Canal is NOT that important to the US for we have East-West rail lines AND interstate highways.

http://www.intracen.org/itc/market-info-tools/statistics-import-product-country/

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
8. That is a story from the building of the orginal Panama Canal
Tue Dec 23, 2014, 01:08 AM
Dec 2014

Last edited Tue Dec 23, 2014, 01:42 AM - Edit history (1)

Nicaragua and Mexico had always been viable alternatives. During the argument to build a canal, these were considered. In fact the House of Representative voted in favor of the Canal in Nicaragua. Supporters of the Panama Canal then found a Post Card with a Stamp form Nicaragua showing Lake Nicaragua and Momotombo volcano throwing lava. The Momotombo volcano is in Nicaragua but no where near any of the proposed canal route, but the supporters of the Canal in Panama used that Stamp to show how dangerous a canal through Nicaragua would be and the "Safer" route was Panama.

It was a nonsense argument, but it was enough to get Congress to change its mind. That stamp comes up every time there is a discussion about the Panama Canal and how one little thing can change people's minds.

Now any canal through Nicaragua would be almost twice as long, but has several advantages over a Panama Canal:

1. It is "flatter" , yes you still have to drill through a mountain ridge but it is NOT as tall as the mountains in Panama

2. You can uses the the San Juan river to get to Lake Nicaragua. This would require deepening the channel of the San Juan River as it flows from Lake Nicaragua, but it is a short 20 mile cut through some tall mountains to get to the Pacific. As a whole a lot cheaper operation then building the locks and dams used in the Panama Canal. Please note the Chinese have decided NOT to opt for the river route thus avoiding environmental problems such a route would incur.

3. The area is less infested with Malaria and Yellow fever (a little problem today but a big concern in the 1800s).

4. The exit into the Pacific is aimed westward, as oppose to Panama where the Canal is aimed Southward. The San Juan River Delta is aimed to East, while the Panama Canal Atlantic Exit is aimed NORTH. If one use the Panama Canal, as you enter the Pacific you have to sail south and then West, then North to catch the prevailing winds and currents. If you exit the Panama Canal you are headed NORTHWEST thus you have to turn east sooner or later, even if your next port is Houston. Winds and currents are important even if one is using steam or diesel engines and if you have to shift directions, that eats fuel.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nicaragua_Canal

Thus Congress, until that Nicaragua Stamp was sent to every Congressmen, opt for Nicaragua for it was the CHEAPER alternative AND it was a East-West Route NOT the North-South route of the Panama Canal.

The other alternative is even longer, but is much flatter then the other two routes, A railroad was built between Veracruz and the Pacific in 1899 and used to transport goods from the PAcific to the Atlantic. This railroad lost most of its business when the Panama Canal opened in 1914, but is the chief alternative if the Panama is closed for any reason.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Isthmus_of_Tehuantepec

This route was considered NOT viable in 1902 when the US decided to built the Panama Canal, but with today's earth moving equipment more then viable and would be the only canal that could be built without locks without incurring HUGE expenses (as was the problem with the French Attempt to build a sea level canal in the late 1800s in Panama).

tclambert

(11,087 posts)
3. This looks like the proposed canal route:
Mon Dec 22, 2014, 11:33 PM
Dec 2014


There are some rivers involved as well as Lake Nicaragua, and it looks like four sets of locks.
Latest Discussions»Latest Breaking News»Nicaragua breaks ground o...