ISIS: Enslaving, having sex with 'unbelieving' women, girls is OK

[okaawhatever]

Source: CNN

(CNN) -- Can you take non-Muslim women and children captive? Yes, says ISIS.
Can you have sex with them, even prepubescent girls? Yes, according to the Islamist extremist group.
Can you sell them or give them as gifts to others? The answer is yes, once again.

People in Mosul -- the Iraqi city now under control of the group calling itself the Islamic State -- got these and other messages loud and clear after sunset prayers Friday, when armed men handed out a color-printed pamphlet "Questions and Answers on Taking Captives and Slaves," three residents told CNN.

SNIP

As such, the ISIS document claims, "It is permissible to buy, sell or give as a gift female captives and slaves, for they are merely property."

Read more: http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/12/world/meast/isis-justification-female-slaves/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

[jwirr]

1. OK. Horrible but what we need to remember is the treatment of slaves in our own country. I think

the answers would have been the same. We have come a long way but we have been there. I do not know how to stop this in other countries other than what we are doing - going to war.

[closeupready]

13. Agreed. Also, sex slavery exists in the modern US. It is not sanctioned

by any civil or religious authorities of which I'm aware, but there are plenty of documentaries and investigative news reports about the illegitimate practice in the US, elsewhere in the West, and all over the world.

[AngryAmish]

18. Yours is the most debased answer possible.

I agree with you that we need to leave the region. Let them soil their own nest. But to think they are anything but primative nutters who have expelled themselves from civilization and then flagellate civilized people for things done in the past leaves a smell that is unwashable. Congrats.

[jwirr]

20. I suspect that was true of the era I reminded everyone about. I in no way defended the practice.

And I did not suggest leaving the area. I said that I do not know what to do except fight the war with them we are in now.

Where you got the rest of that I do not know. Are you angry because I reminded America that we have been down that road ourselves? Well if you think leaving the area is going to stop anything good luck to you.

[Thinkingabout]

27. The truth is America has been guilty of bad things and not to downplay those bad events right now

We can not change those things, it is in the past but we can attempt to do something about ISIS kidnapping and raping women and girls. This is reward to the recruits of ISIS, it can be stopped and all nations has to join in in a united effort to get this crazed bunch stopped.

[Snow Leopard]

33. jesus christ

we have to think about something that happed over 100 years ago that you *think* might have garnered the same response? Stunning.

[AnalystInParadise]

36. LOL

first post used to bash America instead of the monsters in ISIS. Congrats, I have never seen a Blame America First poster actually post first.

[LanternWaste]

62. Nor have I ever seen American History labeled as "Blame America First"

Nor have I ever seen American History labeled as "Blame America First..."

(insert distinction without a difference below)

[treestar]

40. That's your reaction?

Really? We are above that now. We can judge. They are horrible and worse than us. My god, that's a lot of effort.

[hrmjustin]

85. I don't understand you response. please explain if you get a chance.

Thanks.

[zeemike]

2. ISIS is starting to sound more like a CIA creation every day.

I mean they push every button...they are evil to the max...the perfect villain.
And so vile Jesus himself would bomb them.

Well I don't know shit what is going on over there but it is just a bit too much for me.

[CJCRANE]

6. It does seem like a continuation of the same themes

from the Bush era propaganda and atrocities.

And the leisurely approach by the west and UN to just let this play out seems odd. Whether by accident or design, the bust up with Russia also came at just the wrong time to try to solve this issue.

[Igel]

24. They are Salafists.

Much of Xian history was whitewashed for a long time. Then "we" decided to look into the dirty, nasty, humiliating, and vile side of it. What did Xian churches and rulers do that was truly bad? Structurally bad? What kinds of justifications in ideology, in religious doctrines, in cultural practices licensed these things considered so evil today but so easily justified 100, 200, 500, 1000 years ago.

Few tried to say, "But those weren't really Xians." Few tried to say, "They're lies, distortions." Those that did usually broke with the lines of tradition that led directly back to those kinds of power structures, making it easy to denounce the practices and barricade their own psyches from those practices.

You can find ISIS' views spread across more than 1000 years of Muslim history, from Spain to SE Asia, from Europe to Africa. At times it was more common, at other times less common. But not knowing it lets the claim be made this this is somehow "foreign" to Islam--just as slavery is "foreign" to Xianity. This is a variety of fundie Islam, an atavism, a throw-back to times that most Muslims would rather forget happened and most non-Muslims either revel in (if they're "Islamophobes&quot or seek to avoid (if they don't want to be called Islamophobes). When what's needed is the kind of truth-seeking that European Xian history got from "Christophobes".

It pays to remember that Muslim traders exported more black Africans as slaves from south of the Sahara than the trans-Atlantic slave trade did (and in all the American hand-wringing over our horrible sin, that >95% of that went not to N. America). There's a much smaller trace of those slaves' DNA in the current population in slave-owning territories in Muslim countries simply because the men were often routinely castrated. They couldn't treat their slaves as livestock, breeding them like animals and trading the offspring, just as you can't put geldings out to stud. Note that the trade in slaves also included Europeans and other non-Africans. (This is a great motivation to convert, by the way--Muslims don't enslave Muslims.) Moreover, the idea that black Africans made easy targets for slavery and were good slaves wasn't just discovered by the Iberians in the 1500s: They'd seen the slave trade for centuries--and when they saw a need, a way to apply their knowledge for their countries' use and to make money, they seriously wanted in on the action.

[treestar]

41. Is it possible that evil might come from them without any help

from the CIA?

[zeemike]

43. Sure it is possible.

There are plenty of evil people in the world, but our CIA has a long history of exploitation of evil for it's own interist...and it is more possible that past is prologue.

[stevenleser]

70. Right? It's not like we have real CIA misdeeds in front of us to worry about.

These folks that attribute every bad going on in the world to the CIA are ridiculous.

[stevenleser]

64. You realize that bad things happened in this world prior to the CIA's creation 60 or so years ago

right?

What's next, are you going to blame the CIA for the Spanish Inquisition?

[zeemike]

65. So bad things happened before they were created so they are Innocent.

The logic of that escapes me.
Unless you have re written history they have been into some serious meddling in other countries...including murder...but we are to trust them this time?

But yes this existed before the CIA...read about General Smedley Butler...the greedy and ruthless have always had tools to use...their tool box is full of them, the CIA being just one.

[stevenleser]

66. Please. Quit with your kneejerk conspiracy theories. If you have proof post it. nt

[zeemike]

69. Well I could ask you to please quit your benevolent CIA theory but I won't.

Because you have a right to that opinion and the right to express it with out fear of being silenced.
But if you have a problem with what I say there is the alert button...use it.

[Adrahil]

73. One can not be in violation of the rules and still be making a dumb post. n/t

[Adrahil]

72. Oh for fuck's sake...

Not everything bad in the world is the creation of the CIA.

Sweet Jeebus....

[Scuba]

3. Who's writing their scripts? Sounds like Rove's work.

[Yo_Mama]

12. The Koran. Really. n/t

[Rhinodawg]

30. Wow.

.

[snooper2]

47. you ever actually read the Koran or the New Testament? evil shit in both those mythologies

[closeupready]

48. Yeah - the part about giving alms to the poor as a pillar of one's faith

is pretty freaking evil, huh?

[snooper2]

49. and there we go just picking out the happy parts of the holy books

[closeupready]

50. Your side does it. Sauce for the goose.

[snooper2]

90. what side? I'm on a side now?

Please do explain more....

Oh, Spot Quiz- Which holy book contains this pillar of peace and love?


"...for them garments of fire shall be cut and there shall be poured over their heads boiling water whereby whatever is in their bowels and skin shall be dissolved and they will be punished with hooked iron rods."

[MellowDem]

61. Eternal hellfire for non-believers...

rampant misogyny and bigotry, a God who commits and orders genocide, but you're right, the alms makes up for all that

[Adrahil]

75. Well, to be fair, their twisted vision of the Koran.

They tend to cherry pick the parts they like, just like all fundies.

[Humanist_Activist]

96. Everyone cherry picks from their chosen holy books...

there are so many contradictions, atrocities and even good things in these books that they are meaningless as a guide to anyone's life or anyone's society.

If you are a Moderate or Liberal believer, you cherry pick the stuff that tells you to love your fellow man, etc. If you are Conservative, theologically, then you have a tendency to cherry pick the stuff supporting God's authority and his laws.

[CJCRANE]

4. Why are we dithering around supporting "moderate rebels"?

These "rebels" have been nothing but a disaster for Syria and Iraq.

How about we support the government of Syria to deal with this threat?

[Comrade Grumpy]

10. Yeah, our Syria policy is pretty fucked up.

[AngryAmish]

19. Why? This menace.

This is the face of....if not evil, it is naive belief that results in evil. She is the architect of the American Arab Spring offensive, and hundreds of millions will eventually die.

[Thinkingabout]

28. Where is your link?

[SoapBox]

5. The uneducated...are easily brainwashed.

And as males of the (which one I'm not sure) species...any tiny bit of brain matter, would be in their balls. Thus, it will all make sense to them.

It would never even dawn on them that they are sicko fuck perverts.

[seveneyes]

7. This is the logical result of brainwashing youth with violent religion and no education

These types look to their sky daddy and sword swinging hero for answers to life. Most of these morons would not know an atom from an element and they are thinking with their dicks and bravado.

Fuck them and those that raised them.

[DeSwiss]

8. A belief in which.....

...the reward of 72 virgins is promised for martyrs of the cause of Islam {presumably this is what the virgin wanted as well -- or it just doesn't matter what they want}.

And the acceptance of the story where an ant's advice is considered wise counsel to avoid mishaps and/or inadvertent crushings from Solomon's big feet.

- How (or maybe better asked), why would this idiocy seems so strange? They're cretins.

PERIOD.

[CanonRay]

9. ISIS is doing wonders for the public image of Islam.

[closeupready]

14. Yes, because Westboro Baptist is representative of Christianity.

[CanonRay]

15. No but they do not help the Baptist image roo much.

[closeupready]

16. Well, same thing here.

[leftynyc]

51. Because holding up odious signs

and picketing funerals is JUST LIKE taking women and girls as sex slaves and beheading people.

[closeupready]

53. Because it's ok to claim YOUR religion's nutcases are exceptions

BUT it's also okay to claim your bigotry against OTHER religions is okay because the exception isn't exceptional, but representative of the entire class of people.

[leftynyc]

54. I'm neither Christian or Muslim

but comparing a dozen family members who picket funerals and hold up signs to tens of thousands who view sexual slavery, beheadings and crucifixions as civilized is just plain stupid.

[closeupready]

55. Didn't say that. Said your bigotry is wrong.

And stupid, by the way.

[leftynyc]

57. What bigotry? (n/t)

[closeupready]

58. Duh. Islamophobia. By the way, I didn't ask you to inject yourself

into the discussion I was having with the other member, but since you did, it would be polite if you actually read what was said, and what the context of the discussion is. I shouldn't have to spoonfeed you.

And further, I'm honestly not interested in debating with you, because I well know what you are all about - neither of us are DU newcomers, and I know you all the answers to everything ever in the universe, so I think that's that.

[leftynyc]

59. Yawn

I jumped in because I think it's childish to constantly use the magical balance fairy in these cases. I think it's childish to have to bash Christianity every single time something like this comes out (and really, comparing a dozen family members to ISIS? Seriously?). You don't like it? Tough. Your second paragraph is undecipherable.

[closeupready]

60. Goodbye.

[bklyncowgirl]

68. Many Christians would take issue with that statement nt

[closeupready]

71. So what.

[Rhinodawg]

74. Offend more people, OK?

[closeupready]

76. Like muslim Democrats should be offended by you and BklnCowgirl?

And the bigotry in this thread??

[Rhinodawg]

11. Is this Islamophobia ?

of course all religions and cultures are the same.

[Comrade Grumpy]

17. More like justified jihadophobia.

All religions aren't the same, of course, but all can and have been looked to by ne'er-do-wells to justify their psychopathic actions. I don't think it's the religion as much as the psychopathology.

[jtuck004]

21. Huh. Sounds like Columbus. n/t

[Igel]

25. Yes.

The Iberians learned a lot from their 500+ years of occupation, just as the Italians did from theirs (and the warfare that was waged on their territories and territorial waters).

You often become what you hate and fight, adopting their methods. Perhaps its acculturation, perhaps it's just saying "I need these tactics to win, and can worry about morality later." That "later" never really comes, the present just stretches interminably into the future.

Then again, a lot of this is just how people are, with their religion as a kind of moral fig-leaf to justify their taking their own word as God's.

[tabasco]

38. Yes, the 1400s and the 21st century

Exactly the same. Good point!

[jtuck004]

39. Except Columbus could have taught ISIS a lot about torture and murder. They are pikers compared to

our ancestors.

[tabasco]

42. 500+ years ago?

That's idiotic.

[jtuck004]

44. Think you didn't benefit from their using 10 year old girls as sexual favors for good work?

The eventual killing off of tens of millions of people?

Your timeline is about right, but your arrogance overwhelms your ability to reason. Again. Then again, that's how they built the Teaparty.

Talk to someone else. You waste my time. Bye.

[leftynyc]

52. Having to go back 500 years

to make a point shows you have no point. I would think you'd be embarrassed trying to make that comparison but apparently not.

[madokie]

22. Its called rape

[truthisfreedom]

34. Church sanctioned rape.

[hrmjustin]

87. Church sanctioned?

[hollowdweller]

23. No wonder this movement attracts hopeless 20 something males.

You have the power of life and death and can screw anybody you want.

[seveneyes]

26. BINGO

Now, how to put a stop to these crazed humanitarian misfits?

[William Seger]

32. Treat them as criminals

The fact that we'll need an army rather than a SWAT team to subdue them is just a matter of scale. They should be arrested and individually prosecuted for their crimes, and if they resist arrest with armed violence, they should pay the price.

[dembotoz]

31. church sanctiond rape is an attractive concept i would imagine

[hedgehog]

35. That's my thinking.

[Odin2005]

46. So ISIS is trying to attract Reddit posters?

[kwassa]

79. DUzy!

[Odin2005]

88. Thanks!

It was too obvious NOT to say!

[rafeh1]

29. ISIS and SISI were both financed by Saudis and UAE

ISIS and SISI were both financed by Saudis and UAE. They have destroyed the arab spring and given the arab dictatorships and monarchies a few more years.

These isis criminals would not have been around if Bush had'nt removed Saddam. Ask the tea baggers if they still think Bush's removal of saddam was a good idea.

[Quantess]

37. Ssick.

K & R

[bklyncowgirl]

56. Isis is like a hideous virus unearthed alive from our collective past to infect the present

Slavery, including the rape of girls and women, is as old as humanity. Beginning with the Enlightenment and especially over the last two centuries it has become socially unacceptable in civilized countries.

In some very conservative places in the Middle East and Africa, it is true, slavery may have gone underground only to erupt in a new burst of hatred and religious fervor as a group of ruthless barbarians fueled by a fundamentalist variety of Islam that seeks to take the world back to the dark ages exploded on the scene.

I find the people prattling about how "we did it too" somehow minimizes this present day horror to be completely disingenuous. Yes, we did enslave people and white North American and European Christian men forced slaves to have sex with them.

We don't do that any more--at least not legally.

We have moved on. Most Muslim people have moved on. Apparently Isis has not.

[closeupready]

63. When I've posted multiple threads about Western sex slavery,

those threads get almost ZERO discussion here. And I've posted thread after thread in General Discussion, investigative documentaries from Al-Jazeera, the BBC.

Thus, the agenda in this thread and others like it is to attack Islam, NOT to attack sex slavery.

I mean, 'you will know them by their works' as the Biblical proverb goes.

[bklyncowgirl]

67. Is sex slavery legal in the U.S. or any other western country?

I don't mean 'does it exist' I mean is it legal or socially sanctioned?

Can you legally buy a young girl or boy in some third world country, bring them to the U.S. or western Europe and force them to work as prostitutes in brothels? The answer is no.

Does it exist. Yes? Are young people smuggled across borders to work in brothels? Yes. Do many pillars of the community buy their services from their 'owners' yes. Are police and public officials bribed to look the other way? Of course.

My point is that it is neither legal nor sanctioned by the larger society. We have laws to protect the vulnerable from those who would oppress them.

Isis seems intent on bringing Islam back to the 5th century. You may feel this is fine. I, and I think most Muslims, prefer to live in the modern world.

[closeupready]

78. As you well know, slavery is illegal everywhere - West and non-West.

There are ZERO nations where slavery is legal.

If your point is that Isis is an organized criminal enterprise, that seems indisputable.

If you think I agree with their aims or that I agree with 'bringing Islam back to the 5th Century,' then I think I'm done here.

Thanks.

[bklyncowgirl]

89. A goal of Isis is to establish a Caliphate, that would be a country.

That would be a place where these things are legal.

You sound like "It's OK if Islamists do it" or maybe you just like arguing for the indefensible.

[closeupready]

91. Or you aren't worth my time.

Bye-bye.

[Yavin4]

77. Why is it so difficult for some posters to condemn Islamic extremists who do horrible things?

These people are monsters, and they are committing crimes against humanity. Why is that so hard for people to condemn these acts. Our focus should be on preventing these acts from happening.

[Rhinodawg]

80. Careful...

First they hit the alert...

then they ignore any truth you have to say...

then to shut you up, they call you a BIGOT.

[closeupready]

81. 'Our focus should be on /prevention/' - agreed. So why..?

Why do they do this? Do we know?

What reasons do they give/what complaints do they have which they feel are left unaddressed by existing grievance procedures, that they feel compelled to organize into criminal groups which are essentially chartered in order to publicize an injustice? If we attempt to address these injustices (even if these terrorist groups feel that the outcome is unfair), will we have taken steps to curtail further acts of terrorism/defused the anger?

And another question: are you trying to imply that every existing DU member who fails in this very thread to explicitly "condemn Islamic extremists who do horrible things" ... that each of these members is someone who actually sympathizes with Islamic fundamentalist terrorism? Does that mean you believe DU is a terrorist-sympathizing website? Because that is where your implied logic would lead.

[Yavin4]

83. Or, maybe they do this because they enjoy humiliating their fellow human beings.

Maybe they lack empathy and want to rape and torture women and girls. Maybe they're some fucked up individuals who would do shit like this whether we existed or not.

As for your 2nd question, I think that SOME DUers engage in false equivalency with these kinds of stories. They go out of their way to make some kind of comparisons to Christians or some other group wherein this kind of behavior is beyond the pale.

[closeupready]

84. You're just making all that up, though. Okay, I get it.

Done with you.

[Hockey Dad]

82. Ah, Yes: Religious Hypocrisy Among Extremists!

Engaged in by Muslims, Jews, Christians, Hindus, etc.

[hrmjustin]

86. Some of the responses in this thread leave a lot to be desired.

Isis is evil and should be loudly proclaimed so.

Isis does not represent mainstream Islam.

Reporting these things is nog a form of Islamophobia.

There are legit criticism of Islam.

And this has nothing to do with Christianity so don't campare it to Christianity.

[snooper2]

92. It is all mythology, Spot Quiz for you too!

Which holy book of love and peace contains this tidbit?


"Those who fail to bear "good fruit" will be "hewn down, and cast into the fire."

[hrmjustin]

93. Iam not playing your games.

[snooper2]

94. I know, just ignore the evil shit and focus on the happy parts

It works for Billions of People...

Except for the millions of people who DO follow the evil shit in their holy book- then the World has to deal with those assholes-

[hrmjustin]

95. And what does this have to do with me?

My being a believer hurts no one.