Ukraine crisis: Russia aid convoy 'invades Ukraine'

[Bosonic]

Last edited Fri Aug 22, 2014, 12:56 PM - Edit history (6)

Source: BBC

Ukraine's President Petro Poroshenko has accused Russia of a "flagrant violation of international law" after Russian humanitarian aid lorries entered Ukraine without permission.

More than 100 Russian lorries entered on Friday without an Red Cross escort and most without customs clearance.

But Russia's President Vladimir Putin said further delays to the delivery of aid "were unacceptable". Reports say the first trucks have reached the rebel-held city of Luhansk.

Reporters at the scene saw rebel fighters in front of the convoy as it crossed the border near the town of Kamensk-Shakhtinsky.

Read more: http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-28892525

[another_liberal]

1. The Russians took this move because of endless Ukrainian delays . . .

In their latest attempt to continue using hunger and thirst as weapons of siege, the government in Kiev stopped all inspections of the convoy's relief supplies because (this was really their excuse) the supplies could not be allowed to proceed due to the fact Lugansk was being shelled! In other words, the Ukrainian government was blocking the relief convoy because of their own bombardment of the people who the relief was supposed to help.

George Orwell is alive and well in the 1984 which is Kiev today.

[pampango]

3. Unfortunately countries get to impose "endless delays" on columns of trucks coming from

other countries.

I seem to recall that trucks carrying Ukrainian goods into Russia were backed up at the border several months ago when Russian inspections were tightened for political reasons. I may not like these delays imposed on trucks from one country entering another but they happen and are legal.

[another_liberal]

7. Do they also get to use hunger and thirst as weapons for repressing civilian populations?

Do they now also get to employ internationally outlawed practices, like collective punishment, inside their holy and sacrosanct borders?

Is human life now that cheap,? Perhaps that is just the case when the lives are those of ethnic Russian women and children?

[Elmergantry]

11. If Putin was really concerned about "hunger and thirst"

He could simply stop supplying the men and weapons being used to create conditions causing "hunger and thirst"
Again, an arsonist offering a water hose.

[ballyhoo]

16. So that Petro could kill more people en masse? Yeah, great suggestion.

[Elmergantry]

19. If Putins thugs quit eastern Ukraine

There would be peace.

Consider:

Has Petro been killing people "en masse" in areas retaken from Putins lackeys?

Nope.

[ballyhoo]

21. Petro has been killing en masse since the day the West ordained him. So

in your mind it's okay to kill some people but not others? I get it. I've also seen the videos. And many were not made by RT, the scourge of the Petronistas. Once Putin takes over, there will be freedom again,not some serf society perpetrated by the West as it appropriates assets from Ukraine for the West and the whining oligarchs turning what's left into Greece2.

[Shivering Jemmy]

26. Incorrect

[Duckhunter935]

53. How was that happening

Before Putin's people started killing people and putting them in mass graves.

Is it happening now? Where?

[another_liberal]

36. The United Nations Charter enshrines the right of ethnic minorities to self-government.

That doesn't just apply when it suits the agenda of the United States and NATO, as was the case with ethnic Albanians living in the Serbian Province of Kosovo.

Remember Kosovo?

[Elmergantry]

40. Spare me.

Tha Albanians were getting "ethnically cleansed" by the Serbs at the time and NATO intervened. There was no such thing going on in Crimea or in the eastern Ukraine a the time the Russians got involved.

[another_liberal]

41. Ethnic cleansing you say?

How would you characterize what is happening to the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine? Perhaps you're suggesting its just a light-hearted frolic around the lawn sprinkler?

[Elmergantry]

43. Nothing bad was happening to the ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine

Ukriainians civilians of all stripes are getting killed as they are getting caught in the crossfire. That is not "ethnic cleansing", and that is not what happened in Kosovo, so your comparison of NATO's intervention to Russias is a fail.

Unlike Kosovo, there was no troubles in eastern Ukraine UNTIL Russia deployed its thugs to stir up trouble amongst a population that although not happy with what was going on in Kiev, was not being opressed,abused,"cleansed", killed or what not in the least. If no agitation by Russia, there never would have been a war.

[another_liberal]

44. This is inside information?

You were in Ukraine and witnessed those Russian "thugs" doing this "stirring-up" of things? Because, I don't recall that being mentioned anywhere at the time.

In my recollection, there was no trouble between eastern and western Ukrainians of any ethnicities, not until the United States and the EU manipulated an overthrow of Yanukovich's democratically elected government in Kiev. Before that there was not much tension between Ukraine and the Russian Federation either, in my recollection.

[Elmergantry]

45. Uh no

There was no "tension" after Yanukovich was gone either other than an unhappy eastern Ukrainian electorate. Putin created the "tension" and rebellion for his own ends. First he did it in Crimea in order to take that land, and is attempting to do it in eastern Ukraine and so far has failed.

The Russian agents err "seperatists" by their own words have little local support. This is a Putin operation thru and thru.

You tried to equate Russias interfence as being the same as NATO involvment to stop ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. There was no ethnic cleansing or anything of the sort going on after Yanukovich was thrown out. So there was no need for Russia to "rescue" anyone. Russia is soley repsonsible for creating the conditions that it now cynically says it wants alleviate thru "humanitarian aid"

Please do show me links on articles on the ethnic Russians in the east being terrorized that forced the rebellion.

[another_liberal]

46. It was the overthrow of Yanukovich by our stooges that caused the crisis.

That coup was what led the Donetsk and Lugansk Republics to declare they were autonomous from Kiev. That was our handiwork. We paid out the six billion dollars to create conditions favorable for the coup to succeed. Remember?

Need I start with the Trojan War here?

[Elmergantry]

47. Was not a coup

and was not our handiwork.

The declaration of "autonomy" was a Putin operation from the begining as witnessed by the fact of predominatly RUSSIAN CITIZENS running the show with a few local goons that has little support from the populace.

Again, please reference a article that details the oppression of the east by Kiev right after Yanukovich was removed that justified Russian intervention and the creation of the puppet "republics"

[Duckhunter935]

54. like the Tatar

community in Crimea is now.

[pampango]

13. Of course not. Ukraine has said that it would welcome aid supervised by the ICRC.

Ukraine may have put up some delays at the border, but few believe that Russia was very open to the supervision and control of the convoy by the ICRC either. If Russia had fully and quickly put control of the convoy totally under ICRC control, the pressure on Kiev to live up to its verbal statements regarding the aid would have been irresistible. The aid would already be where it is needed. Was there some political or military reason to not turn the convoy over to the ICRC to handle delivery and distribution of aid?

[another_liberal]

37. Aid indefinitely delayed . . .

Is the same thing as aid denied.

Lets at least be honest about the facts of life and death, shall we?

[Igel]

48. The two sides couldn't agree.

Which meant, since Ukraine is sovereign, it had to be done Ukraine's way. That would have deprived Putin of his Russian dignity.

The ICRC and Ukrainian customs folk were set up at a Kharkov border crossing--under the control of the Ukrainian government. The ICRC had trucks and staffers there. They said they needed an itemized list and would get things processed by Sunday. Lavrov said the route was "agreed upon." And the convoy headed towards that border crossing.

Then in Kursk it turned east. The Russians didn't announce the change of plans. It headed towards Voronezh, knocked off for a day ("It's urgent! Think of the children!&quot and finally moved towards Izvaryne.

The ICRC still needed the itemized list, as did the Ukrainian government, but the Ukrainians still say they haven't gotten a list. An additional delay was created by plopping down where there were no ICRC and customs inspectors instead of where everybody was set up to expedite things.

The two have been crystal clear in what it required from day 1. The only thing that hasn't happened is the necessary guarantees of safety and the itemized lists. Ukraine said it would guarantee the safety on its territory; it obviously couldn't speak for the rebels.

You want to find the delay, there you have it. Move to a difficult site after yanking everybody's chain to make sure that things are set up for speed; given over two weeks to come up with a list, still don't comply (that would be complying with demands of your inferiors ... how humiliating); after saying you can guarantee the safety of the convoy, back off and say, "Oops."

Last Sunday was too long a delay, the Russians said. It's Friday, 5 days later.

Conveniently, a few hours before the announcement that they'd move out the entire convoy without permission, there was a large counterattack that opened up precisely the necessary route--and then as the fighting was going on the trucks went through. Rather than risk hitting the trucks, the trucks provided cover for the rebels to consolidate their holdings.

Give me an I ... I!
Give me an M
Give me an P
Give me an E
Give me an R
Give me an I
Give me an A
Give me an L
Give me an I
Give me an S
Give me an M

What's that spell? Russian liberation! Wee!!!

(By the way, in Sverdlovs'k the bookstores that sell any Ukrainian language books were ordered closed. Too offensive, allowing the minority Ukrainians to contaminate good Russian eyes with their printed filth. Minority rights. Under empire. Eventually the US will get with this view of "liberty" and the KKK will be in charge. I guess. Scary thought, but for some people ...)

[The Magistrate]

49. I Just Want To Say Again, Sir: You Provide By Far The Most Valuable Commentary Here On This Topic

I look forward to encountering your posts in these threads.

[Duckhunter935]

55. Thank you

Russia could have had that so-called aid into Ukraine in a day. Since the "aid" came from Moscow, provide the ICRC and Ukraine the list of "aid" while driving to the border area. Meet the ICRC and Ukraine customs at a Ukrainian controlled border point for inspection and turn over to the ICRC.

Easy but Putin decided not to do this.

Would this work for you Another Liberal?

[EX500rider]

42. If the Russians were so worried about getting "aid" across the border, why were many of the trucks..

....almost empty? That seems to make little sense from a "humanitarian" standpoint...

Ukraine crisis: BBC finds Russian aid trucks 'almost empty'

A convoy of Russian trucks carrying aid for eastern Ukraine has been opened up to journalists at the border.
The Ukrainian government had insisted that inspectors checked the trucks' cargo, amid fears that they could be carrying military supplies for the rebels - an accusation Russia has rejected.
The BBC's Steve Rosenberg noted that many of the trucks were "almost empty".



http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-28799627

[Elmergantry]

2. So the arsonist comes running with a bucket of water

or to be more specific, half empty trucks of water and salt.

Now that Putin has his trucks in Ukrainian territory, part 1 is done.

Now all he has to do is to claim the defenseless trucks were attacked by Ukraine so as to have a pretext for an overt invasion.

[pampango]

4. "The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC) said it was not part of the convoy "in any way"

I was just wondering whether the Red Cross was part of this convoy. The ICRC had been talking to the Russians and Ukrainians about the contents of the convoy and procedures to follow over the past several days.

[Elmergantry]

5. Nope.

And it is being guarded by the Putins thugs.

Putin would like nothing better to have the convoy drive straight into an artillery barrage.

[another_liberal]

6. Here is an update on the situation . . .

The ICRC blames Ukraine for intentional obstruction of the relief effort:

“The Ukrainian side kept fobbing us off with promises that the [Russian aid] convoy could proceed ‘tomorrow’, ‘theday after tomorrow,’ but they failed to provide security guarantees to ICRC employees,”

http://rt.com/news/182160-red-cross-convoy-ukraine/

[The Magistrate]

8. At Least Try And Deliver The Distortions Accurately, Sir

You have not cited a statement from the International Red Cross, but simply quoted Raisa Lukutsova, head of the Russian Red Cross. The bodies are not identical. Official statements of the International Red Cross reported by Reuters simply refer to the 'volatile security situation', and the need for guarantees from both sides engaged in combat before it could allow Red Cross personnel to participate.

[another_liberal]

33. Nits to be picked again?

The Russian Red Cross is a part of the International Committee of the Red Cross.

Care to comment on the subject of the OP for a change?

[The Magistrate]

35. You Mean Inaccuracy Pointed Out Once Again, Sir, Clearly

Because the international Red Cross and the various national chapters are not identical, and particularly in times of conflict, the locals cannot be take as speaking for the international body. Trying to pass off the one as the other is not honest, though to be blunt, no lower than the standard you have established for yourself in commenting on this subject.

[Shivering Jemmy]

27. Incorrect

[another_liberal]

34. How, exactly?

If it isn't too much to ask?

[Nitram]

9. Your headline should read: Russian "aid" trucks and invasion.

[ballyhoo]

10. His headline reads according to the rules of the board.

[7962]

12. No reason to think the trucks have anything ELSE in them, is there?

Putin is a man of his word! I doubt there's much food or water. More likely weapons and ammo. My opinion, yes. But based on past history, a valid one.

[polly7]

14. Good. About fucking time. nt.

[ballyhoo]

15. I agree 100 per cent. The Candy Man is

doing ethnic cleansing no two ways about it. Time for him to melt and get someone in there that is not taking money and orders from the West, who you would think has enough of its own problems.

[polly7]

18. Those people need help. I don't care who does it ..... the videos and

pictures of their suffering have been horrific.

[ballyhoo]

22. That's the bottom line for me too. I cannot believe what those Ukrainian nazis are

doing. Their leaders wear nazi insignias all over their uniforms and flags. They are trained to kill; they are no better than IS, which seems natural as they too have been hired by the neocons to perpetuate Disaster Capitalism.

[Shivering Jemmy]

28. Incorrect

[cosmicone]

17. by this time, Ukraine has made a fool of itself

and lost all Western credibility.

Look at the silence from the West and the White House.

Putin might as well annex the Eastern Ukraine and be done with it. There will be nary a squeak. Ukraine was hoisted on its own petard.

[Harmony Blue]

20. It doesn't help that the Right wing

Ukranian Nazi's are dominating the conversation and dialogue. It only causes many Russians living in Ukraine to be sympathetic with the rebels.

[pampango]

23. "Putin might as well annex the Eastern Ukraine and be done with it."

How does Putin accomplish this without an invasion? Are liberals now behind the idea that a large powerful nation has the right to invade a smaller weaker neighbor?

What if most folks in Eastern Ukraine do not want that? Do we decide the borders of the new Novorossiya based on what the residents want or what the Russian military decides that it needs.

And if Putin annexes Eastern Ukraine it is very likely that the rest of Ukraine will join NATO for protection. Russia would then have what it says it does not want - NATO right on its border.

by this time, Ukraine has made a fool of itself and lost all Western credibility.

Please explain.

There has not been silence and inaction from Washington and the West. It is true that no Western tanks or planes have taken action in Ukraine and that is a good thing. It is not true that the West has not anything as Russia's anger at sanctions proves.

It was never the case that the US and Europe were going to fight a war for Ukraine. I am sure that Putin knows that and probably sees that unwillingness to fight a war as a sign of weakness.

The 14 Defining Characteristics of Fascism

4. Supremacy of the Military - Even when there are widespread domestic problems, the military is given a disproportionate amount of government funding, and the domestic agenda is neglected. Soldiers and military service are glamorized.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10025423091

Fascist movements shared certain common features, including the veneration of the state, a devotion to a strong leader, and an emphasis on ultranationalism and militarism. Fascism views political violence, war, and imperialism as a means to achieve national rejuvenation, and it asserts that stronger nations have the right to expand their territory by displacing weaker nations.

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fascism

[cosmicone]

24. There was a lot of support for Ukraine initially

with a lot of saber rattling and sanctions etc. based upon news releases that Ukraine was putting out.

It turns out that almost all of the stories coming out of Ukraine were false. This was acutely evident after the crash of MH17 and the prevalent belief now is that Ukraine purposely diverted the plane to use it as a human shield for its fighter jets, causing its demise.

Since then, Western governments realized what sort of cruel people we are supporting and there has been a deafening silence. No warnings to Russia, no talk of escalating sanctions and no talk of military aid to Ukraine.

Putin has checkmated the CIA now that the CIA realizes what a stupid mistake they made to promote PNAC.

[ballyhoo]

25. Well said. Becomes more apparent every day. I just wonder

which group of oligarchs is going to try and bribe the Dutch.

[The Magistrate]

29. Not Even Close, Sir

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/08/21/us-ukraine-crisis-diplomacy-insight-idUSKBN0GL1E920140821

Central to Berlin's diplomatic offensive is the view that outright defeat for Putin's proxies in eastern Ukraine would provoke an unpredictable reaction from the Kremlin that could take the crisis to a dangerous new level.

"If the Ukraine government consolidates its gains now, Putin loses his proxies in the country," said Techau ( director of Carnegie Europe ). "Giving up influence over what is happening in Kiev would be a huge loss for Putin. It would be seen as a defeat."

"Even the Germans concede that they are unsure whether Putin, if given the window of a ceasefire to seek a political compromise, will seize the opportunity. "We know he has to be given a way out. But are we sure he wants a way out? And can we trust him?", said one diplomat who requested anonymity. Without guarantees from the Russian side, Poroshenko may be reluctant to call off the offensive in the east.

[cosmicone]

31. You just have to wait

Winter is fast approaching making Russian natural gas priceless for Germany and other EU countries who have disavowed nuclear power.

Poroshenko's days are numbered ... either in Ukraine or on this earth ... it will be his choice. I speculate that he has already moved his billions to Liechtenstein hahaha.

[The Magistrate]

32. The Secessionists, Sir, Do Not Seem Fated To Last That Long

It would require outside intervention of robust character, whether overt military assistance from Putin, or utter diplomatic and economic isolation from the West, to preserve them. Put bluntly, neither of these things seem to be on the cards.

[cosmicone]

38. They will get the aid covertly

as soon as a winter cloud cover blinds Western satellites.

[The Magistrate]

39. Covert Will Not Do, Sir

Covert, nowadays, is simply a usage meaning 'on a small scale'; very little is truly hidden, and certainly not by cloud cover. Small scale assistance will not turn the trick. It is not only arms but trained men the secessionists would need, and on a scale approaching brigade strength. Impossible to hide.

[rogerashton]

51. True the secessionists seem to be losing, now --

But the Ukrainian National Guard, formerly the party militia of Pravy Sektor, will not tolerate Petroshenko for long, and when they attempt their own coup d'etat, the real Ukrainian Civil War will begin.

[The Magistrate]

52. Thank You For The Laugh, Sir

[pampango]

30. "there has been a deafening silence. No warnings to Russia, no talk of escalating sanctions and no

talk of military aid to Ukraine."

You and I have certainly heard different thing.

[pampango]

50. "No warnings to Russia, no talk of escalating sanctions ..."

US, EU, NATO Condemn Russian Aid Convoy Move

U.S. says Russia must pull convoy from Ukraine or face more sanctions