Rebels Killed Dozens in Attack on Refugees, Ukraine Says

[alp227]

Source: NY Times

DONETSK, Ukraine — Separatist rebels on Monday attacked a caravan of cars carrying refugees trying to flee war-ravaged eastern Ukraine, killing “dozens” of people in a devastating barrage of artillery fire, Ukrainian military officials said, though rebel leaders denied there had been any attack at all.

Col. Andriy Lysenko, a spokesman for the Ukrainian military, said at a briefing in Kiev, the capital, that “terrorists had perpetrated a bloody crime” by attacking the refugee convoy with Grad rocket systems and other heavy weapons supplied by Russia.

Although Colonel Lysenko did not give a precise tally of the fatalities, if confirmed, the episode would easily rank among the most deadly for civilians since separatists began seizing cities and towns in the region more than four months ago.

Read more: http://www.nytimes.com/2014/08/19/world/europe/ukraine-russia-convoy-talks.html

[cosmicone]

1. Ukraine keeps spewing lies and suckers believe them n/t

[cstanleytech]

2. Just wondering if thats based on fact in this specific case or just opinion?

[Amonester]

3. Prolly because oligarch-putin teevee said so... n/t

[newthinking]

4. They have a track record

[cstanleytech]

6. Of course how could I forget the guilty because of a track record !!!!!

Thank you for showing me the error of my ways, I shall now presume someone is guilty because they had to have done something in the past thus that means they are always the guilty party.

[Billy Budd]

5. the Kiev neo Nazis

have already spewed plenty of BS...where are the transcripts of the communication between controllers and the shot down airplane ? they shelled the refugees and blamed the separatists ...

[karynnj]

21. Out of curiosity, how long do you think that transcript would be

after the plane was hit?

[Billy Budd]

26. the transcript of the whole flight

from take off to the demise of the plane the whole thing...and where is the Information from the Black Boxes ...what is in there ??

[cosmicone]

13. Ukraine has perpetuated lies from the get go

1. A tape of a purported Russian officer giving orders. It turned out said officer has been dead for years.

2. All the misinformation re: MH17 when it turns out that Ukraine was diverting civilian aircraft and using them as shields for its fighter jets. Even the route of MH17 was altered by Kiev air traffic control minutes before it was hit.

3. The "Buk" seen leaving the scene with one missile missing was found to be Ukrainian and not Russian. Also, the scenery was unlike where the MH17 was shot down.

I am sure other DUers will have more examples.

On the other hand, Russians have been very measured and diplomatic. Even the White House and Germany have now resolved not to believe Ukraine and have ratcheted the rhetoric down accordingly.

[newthinking]

16. +1 for paying attention

It is so easy to just allow our Russophobia to take over reason.

[Sunlei]

8. Why would Ukraine move civilians towards known refugee camps & fire on their own refugee convoy?

[newthinking]

17. Why have they shelled water and sanitation and for many months

refused to allow humanitarian corridors?

Because terrorizing the citizens in the area has been part of their strategy.

Remember, the current Kiev government is made up of Right wing and extremist factions. Like right wingers here, their "tactical" approach to issues is not always high in humanitarian concerns.

[Sunlei]

18. humanitarian corridors? there's only one road along that whole border trucks can drive on.

Ukraine/EU and their defense Alliance (not Russia) have refugee camps set-up(and organized by international red cross) for the citizens in those areas ,overrun by the, paid & supplied by Russia, 'insurgents'.

[newthinking]

19. Anyone who has spend energy researching the truth

Knows that Kyiv has been overly aggressive and absolutely unwilling to compromise or be sensitive and careful in how they conduct the war. Their own actions evidence their nature despite huge effort spent on propaganda.

That is partly because the war is not all being fought by Kyiv, Oligarchs such as Kolomorsky have battalions of their own they essentially allow leaders of far right militant organizations (like Right Sector) to manage. But it is also because there is such a large presence of right wing extremists in or threatening the executive and legislative branches that they are required to act in an overly aggressive manner.

The western press has reported white as black and black as white, but the fact is that there have been many calls for ratcheting down and discussing compromise and Kyiv has consitantly talked like they are interested but *never* actually participated. Despite the fact that there are plenty of indications that a well constructed federalized unity would likely be welcomed.

Trouble with believing the Ukrainian press version of events, is it is common knowledge now that the Press and public figures in the country are under duress and heavily censured.
The narratives that worked for a while are lost. Too much of the general public knows the truth.

[newthinking]

20. Victoria Shilova - Ukrainian MP speaks out about the truth

Yes the video is on antimaidan site, but it is a speech from a current MP in Ukraine. (one might wonder why the MP cannot get her plea on the general airwaves there? Because such views are censored!)

Be sure to turn on captions

From the video

"when we started talking the position was held to be anti-corruption ─ when we follow the events as closely as i have we see corruption as the primary driving force or framework under which the entire thing is occurring"

" Polls show 75% of the Ukrainian population is against the war. Most of them are afraid to say so in public, because they could be imprisoned, interrogated, kidnapped, or even killed"

[MattSh]

15. How can you tell a Ukraine government official is lying?

His/her lips are moving...

[jamzrockz]

7. I mean

Anyone else remember the neo Nazi's in Kiev saying they destroyed a bunch of Russia humanitarian vehicles but then went silent when Russia said non of their trucks got destroyed. Anyone else think the buffoons may have just killed a bunch of civilians thinking they were Russian humanitarian convoy then blaming it on anti Kiev rebels?

That is more believable than the rebels killing their own family members because they were trying to escape the shelling from Kiev. Its not like anyone but Russia in the international community would believe them if they tried to blame this incident on Ukraine.

[cosmicone]

14. +1 n/t

[karynnj]

22. time line is off by days - those claims were days ago - this very recent ny

[Igel]

23. They said they destroyed a Russian "humanitarian" convoy.

By which they meant a convoy of armored vehicles, fighters, and munitions.

Those were scare quotes, not quotes indicating a quotation.

The Russians have consistently said that they provide nor allow armored vehicles, fighters, or supplies over the border.

And they've rebuked the rebels for saying otherwise. Why, just yesterday the Donetsk rebels said they had received a couple truckloads of humanitarian supplies from Russia. Nobody in the West took notice, so the Russians let the claim stand. Even let it be reported in the Russian press without denial. They only deny what it's convenient to deny.

[ballyhoo]

9. Ridiculous. So the Separatists killed family and friends escaping back

to their country of heritage? Petro needs to pour some more chocolate on this story.

[LisaL]

10. Doesn't make any sense, does it?

[ballyhoo]

11. No. At least some of the previous stories were somewhat

believable, but this one one goes beyond the pale. But that was a big loss for Poroshenko yesterday when Europe said they would not join in any military fight against Russia.

[Igel]

24. Why is it ridiculous?

Vehicles of all sorts have been used by National Guard units and rebels. Hondas, even.

These weren't just evacuating Luhans'k. These are 'burbs of Luhans'k in the SE of the city where heavy fighting reached a couple of days ago. If they were accurated described, they may still have "looked like" some sort of National guard unit. They're described in the rebel press as being very rag-tag. I don't see why the fighters would be much more informed than the regular folk.

Then again, humanitarian corridors have been shelled before.

It's also possible that the group wasn't accurately described. Grad fire can reach over 10 miles. "Look, there's this convoy going down the road 9.2 miles East of here. Hit it." You don't peek over the fence and see something 9 miles away. At a distance of 1 mile without binoculars you're doing good to identify the occupants of the vehicles.

It's even possible that a troop convoy had gone through shortly before and the rebel info was simply out of date.

Then there's this damned irritation the rebels have with the Cossacks. It's gotten to the point that the stories praising the glorious paramilitary with quasi-official status in Russia is booed because they keep running away. Some of the Chechens have been none too loyal, either.

[ballyhoo]

25. I appreciate your attention to detail, Igel. Unfortunately,

this time you maybe should have taken a broader, less-focused look and considered all based on logic. You may be right--who knows? In any event, I don't want to start picking apart your "it's possible" post. I am taking a broad look at a composite of everything happening in the US and the world right now and working with my team to arrive at logical answers. Have a good night. If you are right about Ukraine, I will be among the first to tell you so. You at least try for details instead of some here like TG that call me a Putinista, and that's about it. Have a nice night.

[karynnj]

27. "working with my team" ??

Are you referring to similar minded people on DU or something different? Also, it seems "logical" ends up being exactly whatever RT says, which is true only if you assign their information high credibility and other sources very little.

[ballyhoo]

28. Yes. Logical is what we determine seems right based on

reports from everywhere, including RT, plus our own thoughts considering past wars and battles. We assign high credibility to stories and reports that seem logical and discount those reports from those who have a propensity for steering and name calling. But, then, Ukraine v/ Russia is just one story in the road to collapse of mankind.

[karynnj]

29. Again, who is "we" or "our team"

(This is not meant as antagonistic. Groups have formed before on DU that have internally shared knowledge and insight. Most supported specific Democrats. (I was very clearly in the John Kerry group - even if the word "our team" was never used.) The question I ask is what exactly are you referring to?

I personally have not found most RT claims "reasonable" or "logical".

[ballyhoo]

30. I answered "yes" to your first question in your

preceding post. I don't care for the reporters in RT myself. But the stories seems reasonable usually. Heads and shoulders above anything coming out of the US, which is now an inverse fascist state replete with total media control.

[NickB79]

31. Almost as crazy as shooting down a passenger jet thinking it was a military transport

And we all know the rebels would never make THAT kind of massive fuck-up, right?

Right?

[ballyhoo]

32. I say the plane was machine-gunned by either

a Ukrainian Jet, which was climbing toward MH17 before the plane went down, OR a false flag jet that did the same thing. Those on the ground saw two planes. I have seen picture of the machine gun fire, and I know machine gun fire. You believe what you want: it is still a free country, for at least a little while longer.

[dipsydoodle]

12. Ukraine crisis: 15 bodies found after strike on refugee convoy

Fifteen bodies have so far been recovered from the site of Monday's rocket strike on a refugee convoy of buses and cars in eastern Ukraine, a military spokesman said on Tuesday.

"By 7pm last night we had retrieved 15 bodies … The search continued into the night and is continuing today," the spokesman, Andriy Lysenko, said.

Dozens of people, including women and children, were believed to be killed when the convoy carrying refugees was hit by rocket fire near the eastern city of Luhansk.

Government forces and pro-Russia rebels accused each other of the attack on the vehicles, which were evacuating civilians from the towns of Khryaschuvate and Novosvitlivka.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/aug/19/ukraine-crisis-bodies-found-strike-refugee-convoy