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jakeXT

(10,575 posts)
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 11:07 AM Jul 2014

Ukraine may need new bailout

Source: CNN Money

The conflict in eastern Ukraine is driving the economy even deeper into crisis, which may force the government to seek another bailout.

...

The International Monetary Fund agreed in April to lend Ukraine $17 billion over the next two years to stave off the threat of economic collapse.

But conditions in Ukraine have deteriorated since then, making it harder for the government to meet the terms of the bailout. Making matters worse, Russia has also cut off gas supplies.

..

The IMF now expects Ukraine's economy to shrink by 6.5% this year, compared with 5% at the time the emergency loans were agreed. GDP stagnated last year.


Read more: http://money.cnn.com/2014/07/18/news/economy/ukraine-economy-rescue/

26 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Ukraine may need new bailout (Original Post) jakeXT Jul 2014 OP
They Are Going To Need Fabulous Amounts Of Money, Sir The Magistrate Jul 2014 #1
The Swiss banks should be able to lend Turbineguy Jul 2014 #2
If they can't pay it, it's fabulous. JackRiddler Jul 2014 #3
That was exactly my thought. zeemike Jul 2014 #6
+1. bemildred Jul 2014 #4
Nothing More Expensive Than War, Sir The Magistrate Jul 2014 #5
Indeed, Sir, and it never pays for itself nowadays. nt bemildred Jul 2014 #7
It did once! JackRiddler Jul 2014 #15
Having an ocean on either side is a big help. bemildred Jul 2014 #18
IMF had already made clear dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #9
That is What They Have Said, Sir, It Certainly Is The Magistrate Jul 2014 #10
IMF based that on the experience with Greece dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #11
Banks (creditors) always talk like this. JackRiddler Jul 2014 #16
Some recent history on the subject. dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #8
"The bondholders are set to be paid out in full despite their failed bets." KansDem Jul 2014 #12
+1 n/t LarryNM Jul 2014 #20
Here are some detailed economic plans. & 7/17 statements on kidnapped pilot & airline 'crash' Sunlei Jul 2014 #13
Moving from the eastern orbit to the western orbit will cost daleo Jul 2014 #14
Of course, Igel Jul 2014 #17
In other words... cosmicone Jul 2014 #19
as if what the people of the Ukraine think is irrelevant CreekDog Jul 2014 #23
If people of Ukraine all agreed, we wouldn't be here arguing n/t cosmicone Jul 2014 #24
What actually needs doing dipsydoodle Jul 2014 #21
but you're biased against Ukraine and in favor of Russia CreekDog Jul 2014 #22
I don't think he's biased cprise Jul 2014 #25
You mixed me up with another poster CreekDog Jul 2014 #26

The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
1. They Are Going To Need Fabulous Amounts Of Money, Sir
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 11:09 AM
Jul 2014

And it is unlikely they can pay all of it back, either.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
3. If they can't pay it, it's fabulous.
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 11:49 AM
Jul 2014

All that means is that the bankers and assorted plunderers get to own the country -- land, assets, and effectively labor (i.e., the people), all on the cheap. How it's worked almost everywhere since time immemorial, in fact.

zeemike

(18,998 posts)
6. That was exactly my thought.
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 11:56 AM
Jul 2014

It will mean a great opportunity for the vultures to come in and clean up the corpse.
Disaster capitalism on the world scale.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
15. It did once!
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:35 PM
Jul 2014

The U.S. got Germany, Japan, and the Gulf States to pony up the bill for the 1991 Gulf war, with a book profit of $5 billion on the venture. (Plus Kuwait as an eternal outpost.) That's nothing compared to the costs of the casualties incurred (including the 100,000 suffering from PTSD, Gulf War Syndrome or whatever one wants to call it), but still! Blood for Book Profit!

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
18. Having an ocean on either side is a big help.
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 02:46 PM
Jul 2014

And that was the last time when it can be said to have really panned out for us. There is a reason our government loves to hark back to that triumph, because it is the last instance in which one would want to hark back to it.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
9. IMF had already made clear
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:04 PM
Jul 2014

the matter of write off or write downs will not be allowed to arise. What Ukraine borrows Ukraine will pay back in full.

It was originally foresee Ukraine would need c. $220 billion in total.

The Magistrate

(95,247 posts)
10. That is What They Have Said, Sir, It Certainly Is
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:07 PM
Jul 2014

Whether it will be stuck to is another question....

"The future is hard to predict, on account of it ain't happened yet."

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
11. IMF based that on the experience with Greece
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:25 PM
Jul 2014

and the knowledge that most if not all other fundors including Russia have switched to English law for terms i.e. bulletproof.

The original IMF figure was based on sustained ability to repay. The most likey outcome will be that Ukraine will become wholly owned but not by the state.

 

JackRiddler

(24,979 posts)
16. Banks (creditors) always talk like this.
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 01:37 PM
Jul 2014

Also to each and every one of us individually. Default is defined as ANY change in terms that might be construed as to the creditor's loss (including delayed scheduling, etc.), and in bank morality default is a crime immeasurably greater than all other crimes combined.

dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
8. Some recent history on the subject.
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:00 PM
Jul 2014


In return for the latest $17bn bailout of Ukraine the IMF insists on dramatic measures in five main areas of the economy: a sharp currency devaluation, which will increase the cost of all imported goods, a government-funded bailout for domestic banks, government spending cuts, measures to regulate money laundering and a sharp increase in energy prices.

The latter are particularly ironic, since the widespread story in the west is that it is the Russian oil giant Gazprom that is threatening price hikes. The IMF calls for energy prices to be increased by between 240% and 425% over the next four years. No wonder Ukrainian prime minister Arseniy Yatsenyuk says he will be "the most unpopular prime minister in the history of my country".

Many of the usual arguments are advanced for the terms, such as the emergency need to "stabilise government finances". But on the fund's own admission the implementation of its policies will lead to an increase in Ukraine's public sector deficit in the short term, and the deficit "will decline only gradually thereafter". Preserving the private-sector banks seems to take precedence over the stated objective of improving government finances. The state will be expected to recapitalise the failed private banks using public resources.

It should be remembered that the actual beneficiaries of all such IMF bailouts are not the people of the country concerned but their creditors, the holders of government bonds and the large banks. The bondholders are set to be paid out in full despite their failed bets. Operating within the "Washington consensus", IMF bailouts are a supranational form of loan-sharking. Their impact is familiar to hundreds of millions of people in developing countries, especially in Africa and in Latin America. They are also increasingly familiar to the populations of the European periphery whose living standards have been driven lower throughout the current economic crisis.

http://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2014/may/20/who-will-benefit-from-imf-ukraine-bailout-not-its-people

re. sharp increase in energy prices.

Gas prices will increase progessively to at least cost and electricity prices ten fold over a period of time to match prices elsewhere in Europe..

KansDem

(28,498 posts)
12. "The bondholders are set to be paid out in full despite their failed bets."
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:35 PM
Jul 2014

All my life I've heard how capitalism in the best system because it rewards success and punishes failure. This was the basis for a society that wouldn't tolerate those members who won't work.

"If you're a hard worker, you'll succeed; if you're lazy, you'll fail." I heard this axiom all my life.

But the bailouts of 2008 made me see this system in a different light. It taught me that if you succeed, you'll get rich but if you fail, you get rich. It just depends on who you are.

daleo

(21,317 posts)
14. Moving from the eastern orbit to the western orbit will cost
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 12:38 PM
Jul 2014

Just like a space satellite, shifting orbits always has a cost, though it is expected to pay off in the long run. And there is always a risk that things could go wrong, and the whole thing could blow up catastrophically.

Igel

(35,320 posts)
17. Of course,
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 02:04 PM
Jul 2014

there are going to be different standards to be met, different levels of competition with different kinds of technology. New trade routes.

In this case though, people focus on whether Putin wants to annex or have a frozen conflict in the Donbas. Even if he loses, he wins.

Take what's happened in Lysychansk in the last 48 hours. It's the site of a large oil refinery. There wasn't fighting in the area, yet rebels took it over. Within a couple of hours the vehicles had been impounded--some repainted--and removed from the refinery. Then the fires started. The place is trashed, oil reserves were set on fire (along with oil residues), any gasoline not trucked off also set on fire.

Or the mines that had the electrical transformers blown up. 10, 15, 20 miles from the front lines. The miners refused to fight and found themselves out of a job. But now the mines are often flooded because the pumps were without power. The equipment was stuck in the mines.

Numerous companies were liquidated. Office equipment and records confiscated or just destroyed. Estimates are that the Donbas GDP is already down by 30%, and that's just income.

Repairing the Slov'yansk TES--which was hurt by shelling from government forces when the rebels were near it, and destroyed by rebel forces when the government forces were near it--will take half a billion Hr. The bridges and overpasses being downed, the RR sabotage, will all take hefty funds to fix. The damage to the buildings, likewise. Even reports "from the front lines" to the rebel press say that one of the things that the Ukr forces were doing in Slavyansk was removing mines and bombs. Ukr press says many were rigged to cell phones, to blow up sniper nests or take out buildings after withdrawal. But in the fighting in the hours before the rebels left mobile communications were entirely knocked out and are only now--a couple of weeks later, after a lot of sapper work--coming on line. If that was a plan, then the devastation would have been horrible. (Evidence it was a likely plan? The morning after the withdrawal, while announcing that it was a withdrawal, reports among the rebels was that a lot of buildings were flattened by shelling with massive casualties in ruined buildings and the city mostly levelled. The areas named had the largest concentration of bombs set to go. Strelkov was also quite open that they had left a few surprises behind for the Ukrainian troops that didn't learn the lessons of WWII. They couldn't know that the bombs hadn't gone off and when the video fly-over of the city was freely available on the web the claims just vanished.)

The instability has caused investment to dry up. Leading to reduced future growth.

The expenditure of funds for troops who produce nothing, for new weapons production, for transportation of troops. The replacement costs of the weapons ceased by the rebels and which have been destroyed. The realization now that the Russian border will not just get by with a few dozen border posts with a couple of unarmed guards at them, but will need reinforcing and cost money. The de facto trade war that's taking place now--today milk productions are turned back from Crimea, tomorrow it's potatoes from the Kharkiv border. Belorus has gotten into the act, barring a number of things. Typically they don't announce it ahead of time but wait for the produce to show up as usual, get warehoused at the border for a few days, and then when it's about to spoil say, "Sorry, take it back." There's a trade war.

This isn't an accident. Yesterday Russia announced that vegetable imports from Moldova are banned. The day before Moldova signed the association agreement with the EU.

Reduced production, increased military expenses, trade war, instability leading to less investment. This is quite a dividend for Putin. And it nails the lesson even more than Abkhazia and S. Ossetia did: Submit or your life will be hell.


You may think this is hurting Russia.

It's not, not really. This weakens Ukraine, gets Putin popularity points, and solves a problem--hundreds of men who really want to carry a gun and shoot people have been streaming across the border, recruited from numerous cities in Russia. These are often wannabe soldiers of fortune, in many cases they have criminal pasts. And they're dying in Ukraine. In fact, a number of reports have said that on several occasions Russian border guards open fire on people crossing from Ukraine into Russia through rebel-held checkpoints. They're usually in camo. Russia wants its violent young men to go kill Ukraines, and if they fail to die in the process Russia doesn't want blowback--war-hardened young men sporting weapons returning to Moscow or Voronezh.

The trade war increases prices slightly--that can be blamed on the West--and keeps money in the country. It's a support for local business.

All that materiel isn't expensive for Russia, either. The tanks were decommissioned. Most of the armaments are from the '80s and '90s, and Russia is spending billions to modernize. One DUer said Ukraine was a place for Russia to try out new toys. He was utterly mistaken. It's a place for Russia to send equipment it considers obsolete in exchange for achieving some hefty foreign policy (and domestic policy) goals. Same for the MiGs sent to Iraq--they get money for equipment that would just rust and have to be melted down.The fairly new things, the AKs, are cheap. If somebody like Zhirinovsky or Yanukovich are paying for the stuff sent to Ukraine, so much the better: They buy Russia's trash and call it gold.

In exchange, given all the agitprop in the Donbas, they've set up Ukraine for a political problem for a long time to come. They've taken animosity caused by having most of the Russian-speaking Donbas population essentially living in the Ukraine's Rust Belt and said that it wasn't economic shifts that caused the problem, it was intentional hatred by Jewish, Western, liberal, gay fascists. This, on top of the idea that the Russian USSR was intentionally destroyed by Western powers to take over the world--and specifically to hurt Russians.

The price paid by Russia are sanctions, if the BRICS in being anti-Western don't cover Putin's pale butt. And if the strategic investment fund that's being used to compensate companies hit by sanctions can't handle it (yes, that's a new projects fund, but the only cost to using it is opportunity costs, and few ever count those losses). If Russia loses--and the more the rebels are on the rocks, the more Russia demands a ceasefire, mediation, and the more shelling from the Russian side of the border, the more little green men, and the more materiel pour across the border--it might look really bad if Putin can't find a way of saving face. And, if the number of dead "good" Russians gets out it might be a real problem. Last week there was a burial of 17 Russian special forces in one unit. No word on what caused their "sudden death." Those who read between the lines said, "Cargo 200 from Ukraine." It was a few days after a rather large battle in E. Ukraine. But apart from a brief media article saying how these men gave their lives for their country, nothing.

But for now, even if Russia loses in the Donbas it almost certainly still wins. All the downside for Russia consists of "if" and "might" or is a price that is less than the benefits Russia will certainly reap. There is little upside for Ukraine apart from unity and a near-return to the status quo, and a huge downside that has already occurred and will certainly continue.

To blame the financial mess just on re-orienting from East to West sort of entails believing that this war is a spontaneous outpouring of local concerns.

 

cosmicone

(11,014 posts)
19. In other words...
Sat Jul 19, 2014, 04:20 PM
Jul 2014

The "status" of belonging to the West wasn't worth it. Ukraina would have been better off being in the Russian camp.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
22. but you're biased against Ukraine and in favor of Russia
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 01:42 AM
Jul 2014

isn't that affecting your ability to be objective on this?

cprise

(8,445 posts)
25. I don't think he's biased
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:52 PM
Jul 2014

At least not as much as you are.

You were going on earlier about Russians coming over the border, when its known that men from all over Europe are going to Ukraine to fight on either side.

As soon as one steps out of the corporate/mass media and US State Dept. narrative of this crisis, the picture changes considerably.

CreekDog

(46,192 posts)
26. You mixed me up with another poster
Mon Jul 21, 2014, 11:58 PM
Jul 2014

I didn't say anything about Russians coming over the border.

I urge you to respond to the person who said that, not me.

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