Lawmakers: IRS lost more emails in tea party probe

[alp227]

Source: AP

WASHINGTON (AP) —Congressional investigators say the Internal Revenue Service has lost more emails connected to the tea party investigation.

The IRS said last Friday it had lost an untold number of emails when Lois Lerner's computer crashed in 2011. Lerner used to head the division that handles applications for tax-exempt status.

On Tuesday, two key lawmakers said the IRS has also lost emails from additional officials whose computers crashed. Among them was Nikole Flax, who was chief of staff to Lerner's boss, then-deputy commissioner Steven Miller.

Miller later became acting IRS commissioner, but was forced to resign last year after the agency acknowledged that agents had improperly scrutinized tea party and other conservative groups when they applied for tax-exempt status.

Read more: http://bigstory.ap.org/article/lawmakers-irs-lost-more-emails-tea-party-probe

[PatrynXX]

2. forced to admit nothing

but oh well. tell me what conservative group was denied then I'll listen. But mostly it was a conservative controlled IRS nothing to see here and I'm sure Obama is not a Republican but he has acted like one from time to time

[leftyohiolib]

14. the only group to be denied was a liberal group

[24601]

57. "conservative controlled IRS" ROTFLAMO! Good one. Conservative FBI? I'll buy that. Conservative

CIA? Sure, makes sense. Conservative IRS? You still got me rolling on the floor!

[The Magistrate]

6. Impossible To Insult Your Intelligence, Sir

Lacking as you do the necessary quality....

[uppityperson]

7. The irony.

[louielouie]

3. Whole lotta crashin' goin' on! nt

[Iliyah]

4. Lberal groups were targeted more so

GOPers witchhunt ever stops.

[tridim]

5. There was no IRS "tea party investigation". You suck AP. nt

[FailureToCommunicate]

8. +1

[Newsjock]

9. Calling it the 'tea party investigation' is deliberately misleading

The AP should know better. And the fourth graf repeats the lie. Shameful.

[Fred Sanders]

43. AP does know better, that is why they mislead on purpose. And the lawmakers are all cons.

[PeoViejo]

10. "when Lois Lerner's computer crashed"

..onto the Floor, or the Pavement Outside?

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Onto the server that held the e-mail, apparently.

This narrative really... sucks transparency wise.

Shit.

[4139]

31. Hmm, reminds me of the old folk song: if I had a hammer...

I'd hammer my computer.
I'd hammer my computer, and smash it on the ground.

I'd hammer the keyboard, I'd hammer that biiiig screen.

Is hammer out all the chips and spread the dust out... All over this land!

[lark]

11. BS story

Liberal groups were actually targeted more, the right wing knows that their groups are scams so are pushing that they are being targeted., They absolutely should be targeted because they are the ones breaking the law, but still numerically more liberal groups were investigated and more liberal groups charged. Of course, you never hear that from main st. news, they don't care about reality, just spin, spin, spin.

[YarnAddict]

12. I don't get it

How can those e-mails be lost so completely? Companies back up their computers daily, and I imagine that government agencies do also. So, it seems unlikely that even one person's e-mail can be lost, let alone multiple employees.

I will admit that I am technologically-challenged, so maybe someone else can let me know how this is possible?

[LittleGirl]

16. as a former email adminstrator

Backup are kept for whatever time was dictated by management or the legal department. Missing emails are not so uncommon. You can only keep emails as long as the backup program lasts and restoring those backups takes huge amounts of TIME AND RESOURCES that are not always affordable. But if the network server administrators never kept the backups according to the legal department, they are long gone. In the old days, we kept tapes for monthly backups for 3 yrs and after that, they were overwritten. If the end user kept emails on their computers (and only there) and the system crashed and were unrecoverable, then they are also gone

edit: grammar.

[hughee99]

18. If I understand correctly, the IRS was required to keep this information

as part of Sarbannes-Oxley. I find it impossible to believe the IT department over at the IRS didn't have the capability to keep these emails for a sufficiently long period of time (this, of course, being the agency that wants you to keep your own records for SEVEN years), or that their "backup system" was having users store all emails on their local system. If you told me they did this in 1995, I wouldn't have been surprised, but in 2011, that excuse is complete fiction.

[AtheistCrusader]

20. You can be sure copies were retained server-side.

This whole thing is nonsense. But it's not the first time it's happened in government. And it won't be the last. It's not a partisan thing even.

[YarnAddict]

21. I hate to say this

but it sure seems like something underhanded is going on.

[CreekDog]

71. No, that's false, you do not *hate* to say it, you've been posting right wing talking points

for months now. on a multitude of subjects.

and especially on this one:

YarnAddict (832 posts)
8. The point is--

--they apparently didn't go after every PAC--just ones whose ideology differs from that of whomever was making the decision.

What is it about organizations with the word "patriot" in the name that would make one automatically assume there is corruption involved? This was purely ideologically driven, and the fact that the IRS issued an apology proves it.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1251&pid=304889

whether you think it's a cover up or not is not the issue.

it's that you falsely claim you "hate" to say that. any read of your posts on health care, on ACA, on birth control, and most other issues.

if you have an agenda, fine. just don't play games with us by saying you don't.

[Yavin4]

28. You are correct sir. When a person, or group of people, come under any investigation there's a hold

placed on deleting any of their existing emails until the investigation is over. Routine deletions are cancelled. These emails should have been preserved.

[LittleGirl]

34. One the one hand

I agree with you that this is b.s. about lost emails but I also know that mistakes happen by administrators and backups are not tested. And Fail.

And this is the IRS and it's government which usually goes with the lowest bid.

Sometimes you get what you pay for.

[YarnAddict]

22. But, this is the federal government

They have unlimited resources, unlike a small company. Especially considering the power that the IRS wields, I would hope that they keep detailed records forever.

I have had some dealings with the IRS, as the treasurer of a non-profit organization, and I have had to come up with answers for things that happened many years before my tenure in this position began. If they aren't keeping records of correspondance, how can they expect us as a small organization to do it?

[creeksneakers2]

55. The government doesn'[t have unlimited resources

The have lots of money but it is extensively stretched between all the jobs they are tasked with doing. The IRS computer system is decades old and is nothing like private companies have. The IRS does keep records, but they don't keep records of everything forever. This is just E-mails, most of which have no significance at all.

Also, the missing E-mails are somewhat old, from 2009 to 2011.

[Fred Sanders]

44. Stick with "I don' get it."

[erronis]

50. Just ask for the backups from our friends at Fort Meade

Or one of our partners in the Five-Eyes(?) program. Or the Chinese, the Russians, the Israelis.

Actually, there are probably some patriotic hackers out there that have sniffed the contents of every transmission and would happily give it back - for a price.

[creeksneakers2]

52. The IRS has very old equipment

and only kept E-mails for six months.

For a good explanation of what happened:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/16/heres-how-the-irs-lost-emails-from-key-witness-lois-lerner/

[jtuck004]

13. It being 2014, I am amazed at the incompetence we still employ/contract in our computer ops. n/t

[LittleGirl]

35. could be lowest bid n/t

[leftyohiolib]

15. his email should be posted so we can contact him and tell him it's not a t-party probe

[Skip Intro]

17. Now it looks like a coverup.

I know people don't want to hear that.

But read the OP - what else could it realistically be?

[YarnAddict]

24. Unfortunately,

I have to agree with you.

I read an article by Peggy Noonan in the WSJ today. (Yes, I know, Peggy Noonan . But I like to keep up with what everyone is thinking and saying about the issues.) She compared this to the missing 18.5 minutes on the Nixon tape.

It was the cover-up that led to Nixon's downfall. I just hope that there is a simple explanation, and that this can all be straightened out before good people get tangled up in it.

[creeksneakers2]

54. There is a simple explanation

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/the-fix/wp/2014/06/16/heres-how-the-irs-lost-emails-from-key-witness-lois-lerner/

Another big difference between this and the Nixon tapes is that there was unlawful activity with Nixon. Here, the only thing that was ever proven was the IRS office in charge of screening tax exempt status applications for political activity used poor judgement in selecting search terms. There's no reason for the GOP to be requesting all the E-mails in the first place.

The GOP is on a witch hunt. Nothing will straighten it out. The show will only end when it quits getting covered on cable.

[CreekDog]

70. so you think it's a conspiracy that some emails from over 3 years ago disappeared?

apparently you think that every email ever sent on any topic is automatically kept and archived forever.

and you claim to have worked in information technology?

yeah sure you really believe that. i call BS. you were hawking this story on DU as much as you could when it first appeared.

don't give us this "now" you think it's a cover up, you were flogging this from the beginning and you disingenuously post that you think it's a cover up if every single email from 3+ years ago wasn't preserved. you don't even believe that.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/?com=view_post&forum=1002&pid=2958442

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10023418909#post5

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=4749919&mesg_id=4752284

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x5071884

[former9thward]

23. The IRS thinks it is being clever.

But emails are forever. You can throw your computer into an incinerator and the emails are still there. It is just a matter of time and resources to recover them.

[LittleGirl]

36. not always. nt

[former9thward]

48. Yes always.

The person you sent the email to has a copy available even if they have deleted it.

[creeksneakers2]

56. They've already searched other computers

and found 22,000 E-mails, but not all the missing E-mails. If its possible to recover the E-mails I'm sure the GOP will spend millions to do it, although recovery was attempted back in 2011 at Lerner's request and wasn't successful.

[former9thward]

59. Yes, and now the IRS is saying they have lost emails from six others

who were part of the investigation. If this was Bush we would be screaming 'A New Watergate -- 18 1/2 minute Gap in the Tape' and all that. But since it is our team ....

[creeksneakers2]

62. I wouldn't be screaming

because if it were Bush and Democrats investigating there would be no witch hunt in the first place.

[former9thward]

64. Thanks for proving my point.

Hyper partisans never let facts get in their way.

[benld74]

25. Congressional investigators couldn't find their backsides in a dark room!

[seveneyes]

26. Incompetent or intentional. Pick one. /nt

[Fred Sanders]

29. Because computer crashes hardly ever happen it must be incompetence or on purpose, that is a giant

leap of logic.

Notice how the media always report Republicans scrambling for any thing to keep the faux scandals alive as "lawmakers" or "Congress".

Almost like the media is covering for them, when have they ever done that before?

[seveneyes]

30. Crashes don't usually affect the multitude of redundant backups

This is the Federal Government we are talking about. They do backups. Lots of them.

[Fred Sanders]

42. Yeah, like the 30 year old system the VA uses, modern stuff like that.

[forthemiddle]

65. Do you work for the VA?

Because I do. In fact I read medical records from VA Phoenix every day, and I can say, without hesitation, that the VA medical electronic medical records are extremely modern, and top notch. That has nothing to do with this story, but I guarantee every single key stroke I make in the system is tracked, and backed up.

[frylock]

40. which computer crashed? the mail server or the backup mail server?

I could walk over and unplug your PC right now, and guess what? your email would still be retained on the mail server, as well as the backup mail server(s), as well as the several tape backups that are made daily and are stored offsite in the eventuality of a computer crash. do I buy into the IRS teabagger "scandal?" fuck no, but this is just stupid, and really helps the baggers and their bullshit narrative.

[JoePhilly]

27. Every conservative group who lost their tax exempt status should get it reinstated!!!!

All zero of them.

[jmowreader]

32. The tea party has a lot to answer for here

The teabaggers applied for tax exempt status under Section 501(C)(4) of the Internal Revenue Code. This is the section for tax-exempt "social welfare organizations."

Says the IRS, "To be operated exclusively to promote social welfare, an organization must operate primarily to further the common good and general welfare of the people of the community (such as by bringing about civic betterment and social improvements)."

In addition to attempting to overthrow the 2008 and 2012 presidential elections and working to take over legislative bodies at all levels from school board to the U.S. Congress, this is what the tea party does:







https://encrypted-tbn1.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTHfuZGMwuzGfux4K16nvTpSLAz_Zjge3LugkKuqDRogrPP1oH2

Someone please tell me how this activity qualifies as "promoting social welfare." Until you can, in a way that makes sense, these guys need to remain under Section 529, which is NOT tax-exempt.

[EC]

33. Well, if their equipment was as ancient as I think

it was, I can see this. Mine at work was so old it couldn't handle the new platforms and programs required for my job. The company had to finally get me a new one. So this is very valid to me.

[LittleGirl]

37. exactly.

Didn't they say the VA scheduling system was something out of the mid-90s??

[christx30]

39. But if you were being investigated by the IRS,

and you lost (or "lost&quot a bunch of emails that might be important to the investigation, they would probably charge you with hindering the investigation and you would go to jail, even if it was just old equipment at fault, and you weren't trying to hide anything. Should the IRS get a pass here?

[Doctor_J]

38. yeah, right

I might believe some IRS personnel destroyed e-mails, out of sympathy for the teabaggers or out of fear of terrorism by that group.

[AngryAmish]

41. Finally, we are fighting back.

The IRS/Teaparty probe is entirely illegitimate. THere is no duty to cooperate. If they don't like the answers they can go pound sand.

What is going to happen if these emails stay lost? Nothing. Will anyone at the IRS get indicted? No. The Attorney General is already in contempt of congress. Is he going to help them out? Not likely.

So fuck them. No email for you!

[Big_Mike]

45. Can you say "Rule of Law?"

Our nation is one of law. You cannot in contempt break the law. Nixon is the shining example. And, like a clock is right twice a day, Charles Krauthammer said on one of the Faux show's, "The second article of impeachment for Richard Nixon was using the IRS for political purposes."

This must be completely and totally cleared up. Even the perception of the IRS, our nation's foremost criminal enforcement arm, could be used for political gain must be PROVEN impossible. Otherwise, we are headed for a polity much like Greece. Tax evaders everywhere, no money for desperately needed projects, mass protests in the streets regarding taxes, etc.

If we do not clear this up, openly and in a completely non-partisan manner, we are doomed.

[YarnAddict]

47. +1!

[creeksneakers2]

58. Its already been cleared up

If it were non-partisan this would have all ended investigations ago.

[NoGOPZone]

63. As I might have expected from Krauthammer

His statement is a half truth that omits relevant details

The second article was for abuse of power and included not only IRS abuse worse than what Obama is accused of but also misuse of the FBI and interference in the operation of the Justice department and CIA.

On another topic the usual suspects are out on this thread. I'm not directed this at you, so you know

[Big_Mike]

68. I didn't feel it was.

I read much on the board (twice or three times daily) but do not post often. Thank you for your comment.

[YarnAddict]

46. Um. Wrong.

They absolutely have a duty to cooperate. This is Congress, you know. Just because you don't like the people conducting the investigastion doesn't mean they should just give them the finger.

[Throd]

51. What's this "we" shit?

[hughee99]

69. Well said! Government agencies should only have to answer questions if they WANT to...

You know, like the NSA and CIA do now. Everyone likes that system, right?

[quadrature]

49. are the 'other people', going to testify or 'take the 5th'? ..nt

[rickyhall]

53. IRS lost emails but repugs lost their minds!

[Steerpike]

60. It's never the crime...

it's the cover up...

lost e-mails...really? The incompetance and laziness this would require (require) is only believable becouse it is the IRS.

[broadcaster75201]

61. While the IRS "thing" is nothing, I'll believe them when they lose our tax returns n/t

nt

[padfun]

66. 65,000 Emails?

Did she ever have time for REAL work? I mean come on, that is a LOT of emails.

[alp227]

67. Welcome to DU. Well, that's 65k emails in FOUR YEARS.

And what do you think the 65k emails would imply? If anything scandalous, how can you say Lerner wasn't doing "REAL work"? Which is it? She wasted time with emails or she was behind an evil anti-Tea Party plot?