Police say pro-Russians accidentally set fatal Odessa fire with Molotov cocktails
Source: Kyiv Post
Police: Separatists set Odessa trade union building on fire with Molotov cocktails
5:55 p.m. Preliminary findings from an Interior Ministry investigation suggest that pro-Russian separatists in Odesa accidentally set the trade union building on fire with Molotov cocktails.
According to an Interior Ministry statement, separatists on April 2 broke into the trade union building and barricaded themselves inside. They then from the roof started throwing Molotov cocktails and shooting with firearms at peaceful citizens.
Some of the incendiary devices hit the building causing a fire that eventually killed more than 40 people, said the Interior Ministry statement. Mark Rachkevych
Read more: http://www.kyivpost.com/content/ukraine/sbu-russia-behind-kidnapping-of-osce-military-observers-updates-videos-346066.html
Is Kyiv Post reliable? Who knows. But it's clearly as useful as RT, which has become the go-to source for some, and it's been cited in LBN as recently as this morning.
This blurb flies in the face of Russian and even Western stories on the matter, so for those who need to see the "whole picture" (notably the RT crowd, per their claims) here's evidence that everything you think you know is wrong.
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)how do you 'accidently' set fire with something designed to set fire?
what exactly were they for if not to set fire to things?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)I watched them on the BBC yesterday.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)oh wait....
What a crock. So they are not going to prosecute these people What exactly does that say. And how will that help the situation?
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)We see unidentified individuals throwing Molotov cocktails at the building. It's not disputed that both sides were using petrol bombs.
Only your vaunted RT is claiming that the "radicals" started the deadly fire - a declaration unsupported by any facts whatsoever. Most media observe, correctly, that the police have not said how the fire started. Kyiv Post is reporting, accurately and factually, that the Interior Minister believes it was started by the Russian counter-protestors.
This thread is for you, bud. You've proclaimed that you seek out all sides of a story. Welp, here's "another" side.
You're welcome.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)And I don't generally use RT as a reliable source.
Good attempt but you know people are not stupid here They can watch both this video and the one that leads up to it Everything is well documented.
The other video I am talking about came from an Odessa news site that also covered a Tymonshnko address, so they seem pretty comfortable not covering things from a single angle.
ok "bud"?
And I did say that it looks like it the initial skirmish may have been started from the anti-maidan side, which is not the "RT" viewpoint.
Believe what you want.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)It's your insinuation that the pro-Ukrainian protestors started the deadly fire. Did the BBC state that?
In fact, you started another thread making that proclamation, rather than a simple implication. Was that sourced to the BBC?
BTW, when you state that you "don't generally use RT as a reliable source", keep in mind that "people are not stupid here".
Comrade Grumpy
(13,184 posts)They burn it down.
The pro-Russians huddle at the entrance to the building, then retreat inside.
The pro-Ukraine crowd then throws firebombs into the building.
Then a bunch of people die.
It's kind of sickening to see people try to turn black into white. Face it, the pro-Ukraine mob cornered those people, then set the building on fire and killed a bunch of presumably pro-Russian people. They probably didn't mean to do that, but that's what happened. I wonder what those pretty pro-Ukraine teenage girls photographed filling Molotov cocktails yesterday think now.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)So as the fire burned they could not leave the building as they would risk getting beaten or shot.
Most of it is about half way through.
Warning, it's shaky.
I have a link to pictures of dead, mostly older men and women. But I can't link to it here as they are too graphic.
Again, the police had already arrested the people involved in the earlier clash on the anti-maidan (proRussia) side, these were other people that were at the camp and retreated when right sector came after them. You can see they are all carrying weapon. There was intent there to kill
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Many accidental fires are set by "something designed to set fire". Like, ya know, a lit match...
Then there's this:
"Some of the incendiary devices hit the building causing a fire that eventually killed more than 40 people, said the Interior Ministry statement."
If you look reaaaaaally hard, you can find that statement in the post to which you responded.
iamthebandfanman
(8,127 posts)if they didn't plan on setting fire to things..
why did they have them?
comparing them to matches is kinda silly, I think ...
I can think of plenty of non violent asinine ways to use a match.. but I can only think of one thing a Molotov cocktail is for.. and its not to light a cigarette or a bonfire...
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)this tact.
If they continue to blame the fire on the people who were killed that will likely be what throws this entire thing into all out civil war.
I am not sure if that is not what they want. I mean their Head of Department of Defense and Attorney General are neo nazis.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)candles .......
Here, you have things designed to start major fires - an accident with any could start a major fire.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)has obviously never seen a Road Runner cartoon.
Igel
(35,356 posts)People from the march that was attacked counterattacked.
They burned the tents that formed the anti-Maidan on the Kulikovo Pole. The large open square that the Union building faces. The site of one of those protests that, apparently, Russia was calling on the Kiev government to liquidate but which it failed to do. (That's facetious. These exist in several cities, but Russia never has those in mind for liquidation.)
The antiMaidan "activists"--the ones that went to confront the soccer hooligans and the "Ukrainian Unity" folk--had retreated there.
So much, so clear.
It's unclear that many of the former marchers were clustered at the front of the building.
From the top of the building they threw Molotov coctails. This was reported well before there were any reports of deaths. As the fire was still spreading, this was already suggested by reporters and eyewitnesses on the ground (these wouldn't necessarily have been strong pro-Russian supporters, naturally). The front of the building has a roof. The Russians had put up a barricade (which becomes, in RT speak, "Right Sector forces blocked the pro-Russian activists in the building" .
You throw Molotov cocktails from the roof at the nasty people burning your empty tents, you might hit the roof and the crap you used to barricade the doors. You simply drop them and wind can cause them to veer a bit from their course. Then you hit the building. You hit next to windows.
Gasoline splashes. It spreads. You intend to kill more marchers, you accidentally set your own building on fire.
Did this happen? Hard to know without watching a lot of the video that was shot.
Did the people from the march that proceeded to burn the pro-Russian attackers throw Molotov cocktails into the building? Perhaps. Again, hard to know without looking at a lot of the video.
Which is why the police "suggest" that it "may have" happened. RT knows know such nuance. It was an intentional slaughter by specifically Right Sector forces against women and children. I wonder if they bothered to find the incubators and toss the babies out of them, as well?
Iterate
(3,020 posts)By Roland Oliphant in Odessa 6:36PM BST 03 May 2014
The pro-Maidan football fans and self-defence units quickly destroyed the camp, setting fire to the tents. The pro-Russians tried to make a last stand on the steps of the House of Trade Unions, throwing up barricades around the great stone pillars in front of the doors. Finally, they were forced to retreat inside.
...
Witnesses sympathetic to the pro-Maidan movement point out that video footage appears to show the fire beginning on the third floor, behind an intact window - and out of reach of the petrol bombs thrown by the crowd outside. Maybe, they say, a pro-Russian dropped a petrol bomb by accident.
This is a possible explanation. But there is also no doubt that petrol bombs were being hurled in both directions. Only a full investigation might discover where exactly the fire started. Even then, it will probably never be clear whether the carnage was pre-meditated or accidental.
Once the blaze took hold, Alexandra said that the pro-Maidan crowd tried to rescue the pro-Russians inside. Some of the self-defence got hold of some scaffolding and used it to get access to the second floor window, where they got people out from, she said.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/europe/ukraine/10806656/Ukraine-crisis-death-by-fire-in-Odessa-as-country-suffers-bloodiest-day-since-the-revolution.html
That's one way it could have been accidental. I'm sure every paper will run a narrative in the next few days.
karynnj
(59,504 posts)some from the building.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Yellow + Blue = pro-Maidan.
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)RT did not report that
newthinking
(3,982 posts)and tensions like this there will be various ranges of temperaments within groups. I don't doubt there are people in Maidan who don't want to put violence on others, just as there are right sector minded people in the group as well who would like to visit lots of violence on those who disagree with them.
If you buy the narrative that all the country is in agreement and only Putin is stirring things up, and there are only "kinder Gentler" Neo-Nazi's in Maidan, then indeed it will be impossible to understand how this can all escalate into much more shaded hues.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)You did not hear about these conflicts in the East before Putin did that. Now you have western Ukrainians afraid that their industry will be taken away and that their country will go to shit.
No one who is pro-Maidan but anti-Putin is pro-Right Sector. We consider them an insignificant threat.
NuclearDem
(16,184 posts)...but the "oops" comes from the users setting fire to their own building.
elleng
(131,103 posts)OOPS???!!!
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)it was probably mutually set ignition. It was both sides fault. RT will blame it wholly on the right sector and Kiev will blame the pro-Russian side.
Color me surprised
karynnj
(59,504 posts)The report is that the Interior Ministry is saying that this. I assume that is an accurate statement of what the Interior Ministry said. What will have to be seen is what proof led them to that conclusion. In addition, the question will be who are the people in the interior ministry, were they the local people from Odessa, and were they at the scene.
From other comments both groups were throwing the Molotov cocktails. Either group could have caused this if both were throwing them at the building -- in fact, it might have started as several fires!
Here is what Haaretz, a left leaning Israeli paper reported before that report. Their account of how it started, indicated that the Pro Russian people attacked a march in favor of Kiev with among other things - petro bombs (I assume Molotov Cocktails). http://www.haaretz.com/news/world/1.588724
cosmicone
(11,014 posts)Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)Turbineguy
(37,365 posts)the guys at the Bundy ranch need all the help they can get.
Tommy_Carcetti
(43,198 posts)We could play Billy Joel until the cows come home, but what happened in Odessa was messy from both sides.
I didn't see the events at the Trade Union building, but I did watch the street riots live yesterday. And you had Molotovs being lobbed into the Ukrainian side, and you had some Ukrainians throwing rocks and Molotovs at the Russians. And then you had the guys on the rooftops with guns--and those were the Russians.
It was just a horrible situation that escalated very badly. No one should have died. But you can bet Russia will capitalize on this as much as they can.
Kyiv Post is fairly reliable. Unlike RT, it's independent and not state owned, so you don't get the sense it's a totally propaganda outlet. Christopher Miller (Kyiv Post reporter)'s Twitter feed has been very informative.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Here's RT's take on the conflagration:
Odessa slaughter: How vicious mob burnt anti-govt activists alive
"Radicals", of course, being members of the Unity rally. No equivocation on the part of RT, it was those dastardly Nazis, period.
Jesus Malverde
(10,274 posts)joshcryer
(62,276 posts)And Russia has been fostering that insecurity from the get-go.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)There have been a number of places where interests are overpowering the welfare of people and it is not just Russia. The overthrow and the makeup of the government have far more to do with it.
The Ukrainian people are not as uninformed as many like to make them out to be. If Right sector and Svoboda thugs were not integrated in the government the situation would still be turbulent, but nothing like it is now
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)...guaranteed health care, stuff like that, I think I would be willing to take over government buildings. Especially if the police were letting me and even some of them were on my side.
Russia's annexation of Crimea was almost certainly the reason the east decided to get cocky. The same Cossaks from Crimea are in the east now. At this point it is unclear if they are just being guided by Moscow or helped directly. I am choosing to believe that at most they get intel and some moral support, sort of like the State Department with Maidan. But they're armed to the teeth, having taken arms from police stations they took over and trashed.
Three fascists in the transitional government, who btw will be marginalized in due course, does not a fascist government make.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)It is basically civil war at this point. By the time a conflict gets to where this one is there isn't going to be much "koombyya". And it will continue to get murkier after what happened yesterday. At this point indeed most any extremist on either side can cause great havoc.
All the more reason we should be toning down the rhetoric and doing everything we can to calm the situation.
joshcryer
(62,276 posts)Those who lose friends or compatriots are only emboldened. Look at Venezuela. The protests / rioting are still going on. What happens when one group arms themselves and starts shooting? It'll get dark quick.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)The videos have been all over the site. There really is no excuse not to view them before making statements and claims where 30 people were incinerated?
It is all easy enough to view.
With Svoboda enforcing "freedom of Speech" like this below I don't think anyone can take for granted that the Post will always report without bias.
I would have said that about them before (I have read them over the years), but certainly not in this environment.
These two MPs are still in their positions as well as at the head of Defense and Security and other executive positions. There are still Right Sector faithful in the administration.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)Red Mountain
(1,737 posts)It may get worse. That only the active participants are killing each other is something to be thankful for.
Hopefully cooler heads will prevail.
freshwest
(53,661 posts)I'm hoping for cooler heads to prevail, too. Thanks.
newthinking
(3,982 posts)We really need to tone down the rhetoric and find ways to calm the situation. But all it seems like we are doing is add to it????
What good does it do to win a few propaganda points if it leads to an all out war?
freshwest
(53,661 posts)And no amount of internet buffoonery like this...
http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024820686#post116
...Will stop what's going on there on the ground. They will work it out themselves.
It's NOYB because they are not in NATO. We're legally bound to NATO by treaty. Every action that Obama has done was either NATO or UN approved, and he's said repeatedly we are NOT going to play police for them.
The West didn't squawk all the other times the Russians moved the borders before. and we won't go kill them for anyone. Ukraine had been a nuclear player at one time. it's not some tiny island, they're not helpless.
EOM.
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)'cited' within a thread but I can't find a OP in LBN with RT as the source.
I checked the LBN hosts forum and find no signs of an alert or lock of RT today.
To my dismay, RT is promptly locked in LBN by fellow hosts with a different view on 'the news' than I.
By right, Kyiv Post should also be locked if their logic is followed but I'm against locking either of them.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Poor baby.
Now, parse this paragraph along with me:
Is Kyiv Post reliable? Who knows. But it's (Kyiv Post) clearly as useful as RT, which has become the go-to source for some, and it's (Kyiv Post) been cited in LBN as recently as this morning.
What "logic" would dictate Kyiv Post be "locked"? I haven't noted any suggestion that Kyiv Post is propaganda. I haven't seen any calls for its exclusion. That (along with consideration by the admins) is what led to RT's dismissal as inappropriate for LBN.
Wanna see Kyiv Post join RT? Take it up with Skinner. Start a campaign.
Good luck!
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)Which part of it doesn't matter what the fuck you prefer, the decision has been made per the dictates of this website do you not understand?
Purveyor
(29,876 posts)just the same...
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)newthinking
(3,982 posts)of article linked (to progressive/liberal sites) regarding Svoboda and how they went out and threatened the media. They have is severely under control. As long as they approach and cover it as Svoboda wants it, they are fine. If not... they lose their job, or worse, like this:
Or these guys will come to visit:
Cha
(297,655 posts)davidpdx
(22,000 posts)(or whatever you want to call them) and both sides had casualties. Things have gotten so far out of hand, but then again that is what Putin is counting on.
OilemFirchen
(7,143 posts)But (eyewitness) Sergey said he saw someone "on the third floor throw a Molotov cocktail through the closed window. However, the glass didn't break and a fire started inside".
How did Odessa's fire happen?
Plenty of grist in there for the all-knowing Pootiebots as well. Otherwise, a very detailed chronicle for those of us who have no idea what happened and the decency to wait until there is a full investigation.