Author of "stand your ground" law: George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for killing Trayvon

[Julian Englis]

Source: CBS News

The authors of Florida's controversial "stand your ground" self-defense law say George Zimmerman should probably be arrested for shooting Trayvon Martin, reports the Miami Herald.

"He has no protection under my law," former Sen. Durell Peaden told the newspaper.

Florida's law, called "stand your ground" by supporters and "shoot first" by critics, was passed in 2005 and permits residents to use deadly force if they "reasonably believes it is necessary to do so to prevent death or great bodily harm to himself or herself or another or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony."

Traditionally, self-defense laws did not typically extend beyond a person's home, but the Florida law, and at least 20 more passed across the country since them, allows a resident to "meet force with force" almost anywhere, including the street or a bar.

Read more: http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/

---

An interesting attempt to distance the "stand your ground" law from its natural consequences.

[Iliyah]

1. I justg read on yahoo

that the police did tamper with the 911 call from Zimmerman. How true, I don't know yet.

[elleng]

12. Sounded like that, on Lawrence show last night.

Someone had a 'recording' of the 911 call, which was later changed/tampered with/garbled, words like 'fucking coon,' I think.

[harun]

21. Seems like the local cops might deserve to be in prison as well.

[elleng]

23. Something like that,

but imo the person who received the 911 call, and said something like 'We don't want you to do that,' that is, follow the kid, SHOULD have given an ORDER: DO NOT FOLLOW, at the very least, imo.
Of course, if they've been tampering with evidence since then, they should be prosecuted (after being fired.)

[Ian David]

29. They are not tampering with evidence if they provided an unedited copy to investigators.

If they tampered with what they presented to the press, I don't think that's a crime.

It's unethical, but not a crime.

The tape that you give to the TV stations is not the official "evidence."

[elleng]

30. Right,

but if prosecutor said they'd found no reason to doubt zimmer's 'self-defense' assertion, suggests evidence was tampered with before it reached that critical step.

Segment on Lawrence included counsel for family, who suggested confusion about when apparent tampering occurred. Questioned tape was not provided FOR the press.

[Ian David]

31. In which case, they should be in deep shit. n/t

[frylock]

39. they don't have that kind of authority

[elleng]

42. 911 receiver can't say, 'Don't do that?'

I doubt they can't say such, and think they must be able to do so.

[X_Digger]

45. In most jurisdictions, 911 operators are no more cops than the file room clerk is.

An employee of the city / locality, but not a sworn peace officer.

One of my roommates in college was a part-time operator. No authority whatsoever.

eta: And the burnout rate is INSANE. 6 months of it and my roomie quit.

[elleng]

46. I understand,

but 'Don't do that' doesn't have to come from a sworn peace officer to have some power, if only apparent, imo.

[X_Digger]

47. Well, the weasely language from the operator was probably intentional..

The city doesn't want to be held liable for instructions from 911 operators.

Our overly litigious society is probably to blame.

[elleng]

50. Sure is. Pain in the neck.

Governmental agencies frozen, unable to use their discretion wisely. Like, teach religion in history/literature classes?

[X_Digger]

54. *gasp* Heretic! n/t

[frylock]

56. the dispatcher did tell zimmerman "we don't need you to do that"

but again, there is no legal obligation to heed a dispatcher or 911 operator.

[elleng]

57. Right, and right,

but he might have said, 'Don't do that.' I realize its a small difference, but a real one, imo.

[frylock]

59. he could have, but i doubt that it would have made a difference..

zimmerman was on a mission.

[Myrina]

2. It's called "Stand your ground", not "follow the kid & then shoot him" ...

Big difference. Zimmerman needs to be in front of a jury.

Was just listening to the discussion on NPR and that neighborhood association had over 100 calls to police during a couple years' prior to this? Either they're REALLY uptight about people they 'don't know' wandering around their gated 'hood, or they have an internal criminal element. Just 'cuz you live inside the gates, doesn't mean you're squeaky clean.

[TheWraith]

5. Exactly. "Stand your ground" means exactly that.

You're not required to run away from a threat if you have a legal right to be somewhere. There's light-years between that and chasing down someone who DID NOT CONFRONT YOU AT ALL. Hell, even if someone attempted to murder you, following them and THEN killing them is legally considered murder, let alone if they didn't do anything to you.

[MADem]

8. There it is! +1 nt.

[TheWraith]

3. Distance? It's being accurate. The law does not protect murder.

No matter what some people say. The definition for lethal self defense in Florida is exactly the same as it is everywhere else, including in the 40-odd other states that don't require you to run away.

[crunch60]

48. It's called Preclusion

Which means you have no possibility to move or get away from the threat of serious bodily injury, then a shooting is justified. That is if your life or the life of someone else is in danger.

[polichick]

4. I'll bet the shooter has paranoid delusional disorder...

Last edited Wed Mar 21, 2012, 02:19 PM - Edit history (1)

It's amazing that he called police so many times and nobody looked into his mental health.

On edit: I'll bet he's sick AND he's related to some police or political official.

[yardwork]

27. His father seems to be a well-connected attorney in Florida.

Notice that George Zimmerman does't seem to be employed. At least, no word of any employer. He's 28 years old. He's called 911 46 times in the past year and seems to spend a lot of time patrolling his neighborhood as the self-appointed unofficial neighborhood watch "captain." I suspect that he has serious mental problems and his family know it. I suspect that they bought or rented him a house in this community and hoped that he would stay out of trouble.

I wonder if his parents or the condo association knew that he had a concealed carry?

[polichick]

37. Wow - and we can thank Republicans for cutting mental health funding and facilities...

Wasn't it Saint Ronnie who was all into that?

[frylock]

40. i'll bet his old man influenced the dept to drop charges on the assault on an officer..

a charge that would have revoked zimmerman's CCW. that's why the dept is is in full blown CYA mode. they royally fucked up and are culpable for martin's murder.

[elleng]

60. 'Seems to be?'

[Odin2005]

63. I was wondering if he was some mental illness, as well.

That he called the police so obsessively makes me think he has some kind of psychosis.

[Justice wanted]

6. Probably? This guy doesn't want to admit how bad his bill was

[Julian Englis]

10. This shooting is a natural outcome of the bill.

The amazing thing is that this result is not more common.

[Justice wanted]

18. Very true.

[AtheistCrusader]

26. It's not more common because it DOESN'T have anything to do with the bill.

It's not more common, because most police departments would have handled that entirely differently.

There are a whole lot of things wrong with what happened, but the bill itself in no way authorized the events as they allegedly unfolded.

Zimmerman is on his own.

[yardwork]

28. Zimmerman doesn't seem to be on his own. He seems to have the Sanford police force on his side.

[AtheistCrusader]

33. For now.

I'm thinking, not for long, and some of them may be unemployed, or even occupying cells in a prison near him at some point.

[yardwork]

38. I hope so. I seriously hope so.

[csziggy]

58. Since Florida passed the law "justifiable homicides" have tripled

Since the law went into effect, reports of justifiable homicides have tripled, according to the Florida Department of Law Enforcement. It has been used to absolve violence resulting from road rage, barroom arguments and even a gang gunfight.
More: http://www.tampabay.com/opinion/editorials/article1220845.ece

The St. Pete Times did an investigative report about a couple of years ago in connection with the Trevor Dooley case. I tried to find that report, but it's gotten buried in the coverage of the Trayvon Martin killing, plus the Trevor Dooley case is coming up for some phase of it's prosecution.

[AtheistCrusader]

61. Are they, or are they not justified?

100% of those justifiable homicides might have previously been classified as regular homicides that were truly justifiable, or if in the case of people who previously didn't carry firearms, homicides against people unable to protect themselves.

Personally, I am not fond of Florida's implementation. I prefer WA state where you have no duty to retreat, but investigations ARE performed, and a person who has defended themselves with lethal force may still end up explaining the circumstances to a grand jury. But in this particular case, doesn't appear to have been a factor.

Nothing about 'stand your ground' authorized zimmerman to get out of his car and chase his victim and initiate a confrontation.

[csziggy]

62. The Trevor Dooley case is nearly as egregious as the Trayvon Martin case

Argument over skateboarders leaves father dead in Valrico

By Janet Zink, Times Staff Writer
In Print: Monday, September 27, 2010

VALRICO — David James was enjoying an afternoon game of basketball Sunday with his 8-year-old daughter when he was shot and killed in front of her by a neighbor trying to chase away skateboarders, said friends and authorities.

Neighbors say James, 41, was defending the skateboarders, telling a man who lives across the street there was no sign to prohibit them from skateboarding on the courts.

"I see a sign," the assailant replied as he pulled a gun, neighbors said.

The suspect, who was not identified by authorities, then waited next to the body for Hillsborough County Sheriff's Office deputies to arrive, neighbors said.

More: http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/argument-over-skateboarders-leaves-father-dead-in-valrico/1124311

In this case, there was no reason for Dooley to be carrying a gun while working in his yard. No reason for him to flash it at a man and two children. No reason for him to ordering around a kid whose only 'crime' was riding a skateboard. No reason for a father to be killed in front of his daughter. But again, law enforcement did not immediately take the shooter into custody and the investigative process was sketchy since the claim of self defense under this stand your ground law was made.

In this case, the shooter was a school bus driver, but no one notified the school transportation office that he was involved in a killing and he was allowed to continue driving a bus full of children until a reporter brought it to their attention.

What disturbs me is that the law seems to be used by law enforcement as an excuse to NOT investigate.

[AtheistCrusader]

64. That case is going to trial.

&feature=player_embedded#!

Also a wrongful death suit in play.

[Iris]

66. exactly

n/t

[MADem]

7. Well, he'll make a good prosecution witness! nt

[24601]

41. He was not there and witnessed nothing. Judges instruct juries on the law.

[MADem]

43. Aren't you a barrel of fun. nt

[24601]

44. It's not whether it's fun or not but whether we get accurate information? When you want fun, try

The Onion.

[MADem]

53. Sure. nt

[elleng]

9. 'Natural,' or 'unintended' consequences???

[Julian Englis]

11. Both a natural and an unintended consequence. They are not mutually exclusive. n/t

[elleng]

19. Yes they are, imo.

A 'natural' consequence is not 'unintended,' as it is expected. May be an undesirable consequence, but its surely 'intended.'

[Julian Englis]

20. Not at all. A natural consequence can be unintended due to ignorance.

For example, acid rain can be seen as a natural consequence of burning high sulfur coal. However, this natural consequence of burning high sulfur coal was not understood until sometime later. Likewise, science now indicates global warming is a by product of increased release of what we now call green house gases. Global was not an intended consequence but a natural consequence.

[elleng]

22. Yes, 'ignorance' covers a lot.

[elleng]

13. 'Meet force with force' means just that.

Facts important, in each case, so 'witnesses' crucial (as usual.)

[safeinOhio]

14. Just a few more cases like this and all

stand your ground laws will be ruled unconstitutional under Amendment XIV.

"No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws."


Seems pretty clear cut to me.

[LynneSin]

16. Dumbasses will say #2 comes before #14

[AtheistCrusader]

34. Except of course, that that law doesn't actually appear to apply.

It's not going to be an affirmative defense for what Zimmerman did.

[ProgressiveProfessor]

55. Not even close...SYG is not relevant here in the slightest

The real issue is if the shooting was lawful under FL for the use of deadly force which is the same as most states, reasonable fear of great bodily injury or death. SYG is not a player...

Your citation has been debunked earlier in other threads...

[LynneSin]

15. The dumbass had to know crap like this would happen

People would use the SYG laws as an excuse to go people hunting.

People scream about their 2nd amendment rights but what about the rights of the innocent to be able to walk safely in a neighborhood? They deserve the same exact rights too.

I'm guesing Trayvon Martin's biggest flaw was that he was born. If he was a fetus the lawmakers would be bending over backwards to find out who 'murdered' him.

[peace frog]

25. Exactly, this is a CYA statement

"Hey, don't blame me for pushing through a law that allowed a black child to be legally murdered in Florida."

[lib_wit_it]

65. "I'm guesing Trayvon Martin's biggest flaw was that he was born. If he was a fetus the lawmakers

would be bending over backwards to find out who 'murdered' him."

Rec this.

[Mz Pip]

17. Seems like the person who was

standing his ground was Trayvon, not Zimmerman. Zimmerman was the agressor, not Trayvon.

[AtheistCrusader]

35. All appearances point to this being exactly the case.

[Skittles]

24. aw, poor guy

is he so stupid he didn't realize giving people license to kill for being scared might not be a great idea? Fucking asshole.

[un_autre_ete]

32. Does this not call for the abolition of all such 'stand your ground' laws?

Trayvon Martin was not the first innocent victim whose killer walked away freely, and he won't be the last if we don't fight to repeal these laws. George Zimmerman is at large and he is still in possession of the gun that shot and killed Trayvon Martin does that bother anybody?
The NRA is behind 'stand your ground' which is an even more extreme version of the 'castle doctrine'
http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/article1128317.ece homicide rates tripled in FL since the law was passed.

Does anyone else think it's reasonable to repeal 'stand your ground' laws when they are essentially a license to kill?

petition for all states to repeal 'stand your ground' laws
http://www.change.org/petitions/speak-out-against-and-repeal-all-stand-your-ground-laws

[AtheistCrusader]

36. And yet, it's not a problem in Washington State.

We have no duty to retreat. Never have.

[Julian Englis]

49. "Stand Your Ground" author may seek changes

An update from CBS News:

Baxley said the "Stand Your Ground" law is not set in stone.

"Nothing is ever finished in the legislature; everything can be readdressed," Baxley said.

On Wednesday, Baxley told CBS News that it's time for a new look at "Stand Your Ground."

"We need to look at the circumstances that occurred and see if some kind of legislation is in order," Baxley said.

Baxley says he does not think a wholesale change of the law is needed, but he does say, based on what he knows about the Trayvon Martin case, it should not apply here.

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57401955/stand-your-ground-author-may-seek-changes/

[Devil_Fish]

51. Under the "stand your ground" Law Travon would have been justified in shooting and killing Zimerman.

Is that what we want? every one having a gun so if some psycho decided to follow us through our own gated comunity, we just shoot him? Is this really what we want??? Because if I was Travon's Dad you can bet I would be packing from now on. I might even rent an upstairs bedroom with a great view of Zimerman's house from a neighbor.

[TheMadMonk]

52. OK, I do not like this law. However, in this case, the bloke's right...

...Zimmerman went beyond what the SYG law permits. He chased Trayvon down. He FORCED THE CONFRONTATION.

THAT is ALL the law's author is saying.

I am not being an apologist for him.

I AM saying if you're just putting the boots into people for the sake of putting the boots in, there's a place for that and it's the antithesis of DU.

[sofa king]

67. He's probably said that 15-40 times a year since the law passed.

He can keep washing his hands, but the blood won't go away.

[Beacool]

68. Stand your ground doesn't mean that a person is allowed to shoot an unarmed kid.

Unless anyone considers ice tea and Skittles a threat to their safety.

This guy sounds like a loser, a cop wannabe. Patroling a gated community is as far as he got in life. I hope that he ends up in jail and experiences what it means to really fear for his safety.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

69. The Stand Your Ground (Shoot Whoever You Want) law is a truly fucked up Fl law sponsored by a Repuke

That's all that needs to be said.