Britain, France deploy jets near Ukraine
Source: 3news.co.nz
Britain and France have deployed eight fighter jets to reinforce NATO air patrols over the Baltics as tensions rise with Russia over Ukraine.
Four British Royal Air Force Typhoon fighters landed in Lithuania on Monday, while four French Rafale jets touched down in the northern Polish city of Malbork.
The move follows the arrival, also on Monday, of US troops in Estonia to round out the 600-man force sent by Washington to Poland and the Baltic.
British defence minister Philip Hammond said the UK deployment would "provide reassurance to our NATO allies in eastern Europe and the Baltic states".
Read more: http://www.3news.co.nz/Britain-France-deploy-jets-near-Ukraine/tabid/417/articleID/341879/Default.aspx
Stuart G
(38,434 posts)Why?...
Accidents happen, mistakes are often made....
Putting British and French jet fighters next to Russian jet fighters, asks for trouble..
Why go looking for trouble. It will come on its own..
totodeinhere
(13,058 posts)for trouble. Aren't they asking for trouble by putting 40,000 troops at their border with Ukraine?
Stuart G
(38,434 posts)It is a fact, that Russia borders on the Ukraine ...eh?
And it has special interests in that area, dating back hundreds of years. eh?
Why ask for trouble in a place that Russia has special interests in going back hundreds of years.
Guess what..you go looking for trouble..you will find it. Sure..Russia is looking for trouble.
Should France and Britain look for trouble hundreds of miles away from their own special interests?
Please everyone look at a map.
Who is close to the Ukraine, and who isn't???
Distance from Paris to Kiev.......1459 miles...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)who are being menaced by an expansionist imperialist power.
Stuart G
(38,434 posts)Menaced by Russia, expansionist???
If, Russia invades Poland and Lithuania ...then lets see.......but I don't believe that is going to happen..
Menace...what does that mean?
Fight a war over ...menace? give me a break...
Look for trouble..accidents happen, humans get their egos involved...Read .........
Guns of August .. Barbara Tuchman
.about WWI...then read it again..
Those fools didn't have any idea what they were getting into..end of rant.
.no more responses...
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)to Ukraine if it thought we would let it get away with it.
We're treaty-bound to protect NATO members from foreign aggression.
Russia knows this, but reminders that it won't be allowed to touch NATO members serve a useful purpose--deterrence.
pampango
(24,692 posts)Putin is as expansionist as American neocons are. He is even more successful at it as he has added Crimea to Russia's national boundaries.
1. Putin is obsessed with the threat of appeasement
To Kristol, McCain, and their ilk, the United States is a nation perennially bullied by adversaries who are tougher, nastier, and more resolute than we are. ... In his (Putin's) view, its Russia that has been perennially bullied by tougher and nastier countriesin particular, America and its NATO allies. They have lied to us many times, made decisions behind our backs, placed us before an accomplished fact, he explained in a speech announcing Russias incorporation of Crimea. They are constantly trying to sweep us into a corner. But now, finally, the era of appeasement is over. Russia found itself in a position it could not retreat from, Putin said. If you compress the spring all the way to its limit, it will snap back hard.
2. Putin is principledso long as those principles enhance national power
For Putin, an anti-Russian government in Kiev is illegitimate regardless of how it takes power. For many American hawks, the same is now true for a pro-Chávez government in Latin America or an Islamist government in the Middle East. ... In the United States, both hawks and doves like to claim that theyre promoting cherished principles like democracy and freedom. The difference is that doves are more willing to acknowledge that these principles can undermine American interests. For most hawks, by contrast, the fight for democratic ideals must serve American power.
3. Putin doesnt understand economic power
This indifference to the economic aspects of statecraft was a defining feature of the Bush administration, where treasury secretaries played a marginal foreign-policy role ... Seeing economics as separate from foreign policy issues is precisely what Clinton decried in the 1990s, and its the weakness in Putins strategy today. But its a weakness that many American hawks share. For decades now, Kristol and McCain have insisted that America relentlessly expand its global military footprint and relentlessly boost its defense budget. Ive never seen either make a serious effort to explain how this should be paid for.
http://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2014/03/vladimir-putin-russian-neocon/284602/
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)Nothing will cause other BRIC members to lose faith faster than an imploding Russian economy.
EmilyAnne
(2,769 posts)ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)this will end. This is how all wars start.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)heaven05
(18,124 posts)and governments are saying? Just curious.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)MOSCOW has assured Washington it will not invade Ukraine, the US Defence Department said yesterday after the West imposed fresh sanctions on Russia over its role in the former Soviet republic.
As Western powers stepped up the pressure on Moscow over the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War, the White House slapped sanctions on seven Russian officials and 17 firms close to President Vladimir Putin.
The EU said it was adding 15 names to its own list while Canada added nine names and two banks. Tensions on the ground in Ukraine spiked when a pro-Moscow mayor was shot and badly wounded and rebels seized another town.
The Pentagon said Secretary of Defence Chuck Hagel had spoken by phone with his Russian counterpart Sergei Shoigu and that Shoigu reiterated his assurance that Russian forces would not invade Ukraine.
http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/world/we-wont-invade-ukraine-moscow-pledges/story-fnb64oi6-1226900111190
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)on passing immigration reform.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Which were happening not very long ago.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)to render such threats and disavowals of invasion to the level of etiquette and politeness, much like the practice of declining to acknowledge the presence of a foul odor on a crowded elevator.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)But what do I know? Right?
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)it may be the darker nature of my world view, but I find promises of good behavior less encouraging than the yelps of dismay that follow the imposition of consequences for bad behavior.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)much like the US waged war on Nicaragua in the 1980s so now is Russia waging war against Ukraine, but certainly this is a personal view
bemildred
(90,061 posts)Fewer dead people, less property damage, etc. For some, at least, life can go on.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)the optimistic scenario is that Eastern Ukraine will suffer the fate of Kashmir and Northern Ireland, with instability, lawlessness, and sporadic bloodshed being the new normal as it is claimed by two nations but ruled by neither
bemildred
(90,061 posts)One hardly knows where to start the list.
It's a pity for Ukraine to go the same route, but let's face it, Ukraine is not in control of it's destiny at this point, if it ever was, and it lacks the sort of political unity or natural defenses that would allow it to better resist outside encroachments.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)between Europe/North America and Russia?
When does either side feel it can afford to stand down?
Ironically, the economic sanctions on Russia will probably force it into a shotgun marriage with China, with Russia forced to play the subordinate partner.
Not something either side probably wanted.
As usual, those who stay out of a conflict wind up winning it.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)I think we left reason behind some time back.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)as do situational and strategic reason--always being rational means being predictable
bemildred
(90,061 posts)In response to your questions. I was saying I don't really see how to reason about it, it's not a reasonable subject, in terms of predicting something will happen next.
The connections between reason, rationality, and being smart is big subject. Too big for me today.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)bemildred
(90,061 posts)"This is the real world, Muchachos, and you are in it!" -- B. Traven
This is about people wanting things, and being quite unreasonable about it.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)question is what consequences they'll suffer.
Putin managed to annex not only Crimea, but effectively Eastern Ukraine with the only response being some watered down sanctions.
Western Ukraine will need to join NATO, but that doesn't do the US or EU any good.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Which is just one of the reasons some of the bleating here about how 'Russia has allies like China and India and can thumb its nose at U.S. measures' is more comedy then commentary.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)And in this case, would do much more harm to long range ambition. China has every intention of being the chief economic exploiter of Siberia, and a claim to Russia's Pacific coast every bit as solid as Russia's to Ukraine....
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)in terms of strategic thinking, going back centuries.
At that stage, the Russians will be desperate for a regional ally with oomph, and their options will be the US and Japan.
I do not think South Africa and Brazil will ride to their rescue.
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)But among the points of engaging in low-intensity operations is that they can be denied with a straight face, or a straight-ish face, anyway, and can be stood down readily, and are conducted with an understanding on both sides that main forces are not likely to be engaged as a result of what is done by the covert ops or the special forces folks or the men in their flying machines. So these things can be, and usually are, conducted in such ways that they can be ended by agreement or by just pulling the plug, and without much likelihood of expansion. In this instance, the intensity is awfully low, and would be easy to halt if the aggressor were persuaded the game was not worth the candle.
geek tragedy
(68,868 posts)those that prize ethnonationalist pride and vindication through conquest are not easily persuadeable, I fear
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)When the troops are pulled back from the border, and the separatist gangs denounced and told they are on their own, this thing will quiet down to the usual dull roar we all know and love....
bemildred
(90,061 posts)LONDON (AP) Britain and the United States co-hosted a two-day "asset recovery forum" Tuesday designed to help find and recover assets believed to have been stolen by the regime of ousted Ukrainian President Viktor Yanukovych.
U.S. Attorney General Eric Holder said the effort may take years but should ultimately succeed.
"We are determined," he said of the international bid to track down stolen money, announcing that a "kleptocracy squad" would be set up within the FBI to investigate high-level corruption in Ukraine and other parts of the world.
http://www.chron.com/news/crime/article/Britain-US-seek-stolen-Ukraine-assets-5437689.php
The Magistrate
(95,247 posts)Most of Ukraine's debt to Russia could wind up being settled by some bank transfers in Moscow....
mikeyDE
(31 posts)it can't invade Ukraine when it already has invaded Ukraine.
Everyone wants to compare this crisis to 1914 or 1938. I say it's more like 2001. This crisis is Putin's Trifecta, his singing of God Bless America on the Capitol steps. The concept of regathering the former Soviet Republics is popular among his base (i.e., everyone excluding Moscow intellectuals and certain ethnic groups.) He has retaken the media and introduced Patriot-Act-like laws aimed at solidifying control. Best of all, the resurgence in patriotism gives cover for the continued fleecing of Russia by the kleptocrats and ensures them several more decades of power. A few NATO jets in Poland and the Baltic states are useful for Putin's internal security, WWIII would only ruin the fun for the kleptocrats.
Well, maybe I'm wrong but watching this crisis play out I sympathize with thinking Russians who must feel like I did in 2001.
bemildred
(90,061 posts)The one form of populism most politicians find acceptable, as long as they get to be the leaders.