Russian jets cross into Ukraine airspace
Source: AP
WASHINGTON (AP) — U.S. officials say Russian fighter jets flew into Ukrainian airspace a handful of times over the last 24 hours, in what one called a continued provocation of the heightened tensions in the region.
The officials say it's not clear what the intent was, but the aircraft could have been testing Ukrainian radar or making a show of force. The officials spoke on condition of anonymity because they were not authorized to talk publicly about the issue.
The flights come as Russia increases military exercises along the Ukraine border, including moving a broad array of fixed wing and rotary aircraft, infantry and armor troops.
The West has threatened additional sanctions against Russia over its annexation of Ukraine's Crimean region and the ongoing escalation of military operations along the border.
Read more: https://ph.news.yahoo.com/russian-jets-cross-ukraine-airspace-184649384--politics.html
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ballyhoo
(2,060 posts)
christx30
(6,241 posts)"I'm not touching you" while holding one's finger 2 inches from someone's face. That person can accept the finger in their face, or they can grab it and start a fight. And then the finger grabber is the bad guy that started the fight and the war is on.
olddad56
(5,732 posts)7962
(11,841 posts)uhnope
(6,419 posts)to increase his hold on his dictatorship
MADem
(135,425 posts)jtuck004
(15,882 posts)
jakeXT
(10,575 posts)
davidpdx
(22,000 posts)Though the article states it has happened before. There is no doubt that Russia has a superior military and the air power to gain control over areas in Ukraine.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)Catherina
(35,568 posts)Expect a retraction or correction from Western news sites in about a week on page 9c, small print.
“The unfounded claims of Pentagon officials on the alleged ‘breaching of airspace of Ukraine by Russian fighter jets’ appears to have been based on rumors and speculation,” a Russian Defense Ministry spokesman told Itar-Tass on Saturday.
“Those media allegations are populist in nature, they contain no information on the time and place of the incident, as well as no data on altitude, speed and the direction of aircraft, as well as no other objective parameters,” the spokesman said.
The US sources must have “dreamed it all up,” or “a little bird told them that,” the spokesman added.
The Defense Ministry spokesman called on Pentagon officials to stop “spreading unverified ‘facts’ through the media,” saying that “it does not at all help de-escalate the situation in Ukraine.”
...
http://rt.com/news/155084-russia-planes-ukraine-airspace/
Ukrainian links out there too. Doubters and RT-haters can go look for them themselves.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Why on earth would anyone think that Russia wouldn't enter Ukraine airspace? Russia did this often during the Cold War. It's the same shit, different day.
They're saber rattling and trying to stir shit up. Pathetic declining empire.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Any bullshit I say about Russians must be true, since their TU-95 bombers entered Dutch airspace 3 days ago! (Gasp! It's as if the Cold War were still on, which of course it still is.) Confirmations, denials, whatever. If they did it once three days ago, ipso facto they must have done the same again today. Only weaklings and Soviet-loving commies would expect any evidence beyond the word of our Holy Office of the Inquisition at Foggy Bottom.
To further illustrate how void of any validity and nonsensical your statement, let's mad-lib it:
"The State Department lied in the past, therefore why on earth would anyone think that the State Department wouldn't lie in this case. It's the same shit, different day."
(The next part doesn't even require switching the nouns, it's so fucking self evident that it applies to the United States government and its machinations.)
They're saber rattling and trying to stir shit up. Pathetic declining empire.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts).....so 3 days sounds quite reasonable in comparison.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)The history of lies from the State Department stretches back many decades with remarkable consistency. Therefore, according to you, it's not relevant today. Okay, thanks for playing.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)See, the difference between us is that I have no problems seeing imperialism on both sides of this particular great-power conflict. I can also figure out which one of the two imperialist sides is the bigger threat to the world (because much more powerful). It seems to be you who wants to see Russian perfidy, but not the equally consistent and morally equivalent (or worse) actions by an unaccountable set of U.S. government institutions that constitute the modern global empire.
In any case, this thread is about how the State Department advanced a naked falsehood about a supposedly aggressive action by Russia that did not actually happen. So this is what you should be big enough to acknowledge. We are having this discussion not because the Russian forces encroached on Ukrainian airspace - they didn't - but because the State Department lied and said they did. If the State Department had not lied, and if the OP had not seen fit to reproduce the lie uncritically, we would not be here in this thread.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)This thread is about a lie by the U.S. government. Or at any rate, the promotion of a now-proven falsehood by the U.S. government. If you start a thread about an actual lie by the Russian government, there's very little chance I'll complain. (Assuming it is an actual lie.)
Russia generally lies a lot less, not because Russia is better, but for the simple reason that Russia pretends a lot less to be the glowing democratic example to the world. If you're going to pretend that, like the U.S. does while being a global empire, you're going to need more lies. Russia is just a mean and nasty great power. They are full of ethnic pride and self-defensiveness (since they're not as powerful as the U.S., and have been on the retreat for the most part). They don't need lies about how they are helping the world. They do need lies to justify atrocities like the Chechen wars, but they require very few lies in the case of Ukraine, wherein a US-backed right-wing coup d'etat overthrew an elected government and then started scapegoating the ethnic Russians.
The transcendent, all-good mythology of the U.S. government requires many more lies. For starters, that this is a democracy. Or that its actions are not those of an empire.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)Russia is escalating, the US is doing it too. But Russia is the one who has already annexed part of a country. Why is it so hard to believe that they flew jets in there?
I personally think the Ukrainian government is incompetent and doesn't know what happened.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Who participated in the advance planning and execution of a coup d'etat against the elected government of a country? Which of the two, Russia or US, backed a new government that includes fascist parties? Which of the two continued to back that government after it abolished Russian as a state language on the first day? (Thus confirming that this government exists also to cater to and exploit ethnic revanchism, and not to defend supposed interests of economic or political justice.) And who was then shocked, shocked, that the Russian minority reacted exactly with the fear and the self-defensive moves that one would expect, especially in the part that is 97% Russian and historically part of Russia? Of course, it's also not a shock that there are those here who are willing to shill for the State Department line under these circumstances, and act as if Russia is some kind of special beast among the imperialist powers, and as if the U.S. government is spending taxpayer money on manipulations and covert interventions in this distant region out of some legitimate interest, or as if Putin is the new "Hitler" justifying a new arms buildup.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)I cannot have a serious discussion with anyone who starts the debate on that false condition.
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)It was a coup, and your statements are predicated on false premises and aimed at justifying the imperialist policy of the U.S. (as opposed to the reactive imperialism of the Russian state in response).
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)left the country and fled to Russia and the elected parliament replaced him as he was no longer there to perform his job. They also called for new elections next month.
joshcryer
(62,270 posts)One police station was burned down by fascists in Lyiv (not Kiev). One. That's the only instance I could find.
Otherwise there was no seizure of power. There was a power vacuum because the Parliament was calling for his head and he and a bunch of crony parliamentarians fled.
The US did assist. Materially, food, aid, clothing, moral support. Nuland gave out some fucking cupcakes. The Maiden internet connection was rock freaking solid, how they got that, had to have been some big techies.
You might say that the Russian state was acting "reactively" but the damn anti-protest law was drafted in freaking Moscow and introduced by western pro-Russian parliamentarians. That was a full on aggressive act when until that point there was only a two or three day riot and everything calmed down afterward.
To be sure, imperialists handing out cupcakes are not as scary and forceful as imperialists handing out guns, and RPGs, and APCs.
dipsydoodle
(42,239 posts)Russian military aircraft have not breached any state borders, including those of Ukraine, Russia’s Defense Ministry said. Ukraine’s acting defense minister has also retracted claims by Kiev that Russian jets “violated Ukrainian airspace seven times.”
>
Mikhail Koval, on Saturday told journalists that no violations of state borders by the Russian aircraft or troops have been recorded.
“Four (Russian) transport airplanes Il-76 were flying along our state border but they did not cross the borderline,” Koval was quoted as saying by Interfax-Ukraine.
http://www.tasnimnews.com/English/Home/Single/351280
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)is by definition working blindly for Putin (who is Hitler!) and helping him exterminate Ukrainians, gays and Jews. At least, that is the logic of the State Department's partisans on Democratic Underground. In any case, to wait for the actual confirmation on any claim that attacks Russia and stokes the new Cold War is to be a premature factualist. As soon as any claim against Russia is made, you must first be appalled and engage in the two minutes hate, or else you are working blindly for Putin... (continue as above) If it later gets refuted, it's important to ignore that or to argue that even if the claim was untrue, it could have been true because the main thing is that Putin is Hitler and not believing all propaganda claims against him is to follow him blindly and help him to exterminate (etc. etc.) There's a new Hitler and you've got to get on board with the rhetoric or be thrown under the bus.
EX500rider
(10,848 posts)....jump out of 4- Il-76's
Duckhunter935
(16,974 posts)They also denied troops in Crimea, but now not so much.
Please post the other links since you only posted the RT link.
DavidDvorkin
(19,477 posts)JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)These are in the Kiev coup government already - banning Russian as a state language and otherwise stirring up meaningless but deadly ethnic bullshit.
pampango
(24,692 posts)http://euobserver.com/eu-elections/123887
JackRiddler
(24,979 posts)Since they're based on nationalism and ethnic enmities, the fascists of various countries may pay lip service to some international ideal of white racism, but inevitably run into trouble with neighboring fascists. Like when fascist Italy attacked a Greece also under a fascist government. There is nothing remarkable about your observation that competing nationalisms end up having to choose among other competing nationalisms. Nor is it relevant here. Simple question: How do you characterize Svoboda, a current member party of the coup d'etat government in Kiev, if not at least as extreme right? Did Right Sector, an explicitly Nazi group, participate in the coup d'etat against the elected government of Ukraine? How fascists in other countries may react to the fascists in Ukraine doesn't turn the latter into model democrats. Not too long ago extreme ethnonationalist paramilitaries had wars with each other in the former Yugoslavia. Absolutely to be expected.
