NYT Poll: Even These Southern States Don't Want Obamacare Repealed

[DonViejo]

Source: TPM

DYLAN SCOTT – APRIL 23, 2014, 5:13 PM EDT

Majorities of people surveyed in a trio of Southern states said they would rather keep Obamacare and improve than repeal and replace it, according to a New York Times/Kaiser Family Foundation poll released Wednesday.

Residents in Kentucky, Louisiana and North Carolina chose improving the law over repealing it and replacing it by significant margins: 52 percent to 41 percent in Kentucky, 52 percent to 44 percent in Louisiana, and a whopping 60 percent to 35 percent in North Carolina.

In a fourth state, Arkansas, a plurality said they wanted their congressional representative to work to improve the law (48 percent) instead of work to repeal the law and replace it with something else (46 percent).

The same poll found Democrats in a stronger-than-expected position in the Senate races in those four states, which will be key to determining control of the chamber next year. For context, President Obama lost three of them by at least 15 percentage points; North Carolina, where he lost by 2, was the exception.

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http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/nyt-kff-obamacare-repeal

Read more: http://talkingpointsmemo.com/livewire/nyt-kff-obamacare-repeal

[blkmusclmachine]

1. The GOP should love ObamaCare. It is rightwing Heritage Foundation's brainchild/wet dream.

[phleshdef]

4. It barely has any resemblance to the heritage plan whatsoever.

Its time people stop spreading that lie.

[Jim Lane]

6. It bears resemblance to the Heritage plan although there are also some differences.

Comparing the ACA to the Heritage plan isn't a lie -- it's a question of emphasis. Are you more struck by the similarities or by the differences?

Under these circumstances, it's really not helpful to accuse other DUers of lying.

[phleshdef]

7. My statement is 100% correct. It BARELY resembles the Heritage plan at all.

The only similarity is the requirement that people have insurance and that's where the similarities begin and end, period.



So yes, saying that the ACA is the Heritage Plan is not true, therefore a lie, by every definition of the world "lie". I'm not accusing any DUer of lying, they may just be mistakenly wrong, in which case, its not lying. Lying has to be intentional as far as I understand the concept. But the statement itself still stands as a lie.

The Heritage healthcare plan and the ACA are extremely different plans.

[Jim Lane]

8. Your statement is certainly not an objective fact about which no reasonable disagreement is possible

Consider the very important question of how coverage is provided.

Heritage (right-wing) plan: coverage through the private sector .
Single payer (left-wing) plan: coverage through the government.
Obama promised plan (in between): coverage through the private sector but with a "robust public option" to provide a check on the private companies.

Of those three descriptions, which one most accurately describes the ACA?

You're certainly free to point to and give more emphasis to the significant differences between the Heritage plan and the ACA. When other people put more emphasis on the way the ACA followed the Heritage approach by further entrenching the role of private for-profit insurers, though, they aren't lying.

[phleshdef]

10. It pretty much is. And the ACA is not all coverage through the private sector.

The Medicaid expansion is a huge expansion of PUBLIC sector insurance.

The ACA also shores up the solvency of Medicare and strengthens Medicare's prescription drug benefits by closing the donut hole, Medicare of course is also a public sector plan.

Furthermore, the Heritage plan did not provide the fairly generous PUBLICALLY paid subsidies that the ACA provides, which is also another way that the ACA is providing coverage through the government, albeit one that relies on private sector management of the pools.

Of those 3 descriptions, the first two do not accurately describe the ACA by itself. The ACA does not resemble the heritage plan beyond the mandate. The ACA does not resemble single payer beyond the fact that it shores up and expands current "single payer like" programs that already exist. It mostly resembles Obama's promised plan which is a lot more expansive than the description you provided as he also promised a much stricter regulatory system in which private plans would operate under (also nothing like what Heritage had in mind)

So yes, I will stand by my statement. Its a lie to say the ACA is the Heritage plan. The differences are staggering. Not only does the ACA go above and beyond with shoring up public programs, regulating the private industry to the nth degree and providing generous subsidies for private insurance based on a progressive income scale (things that Heritage never suggested), but it also provided funding for thousands of free clinics, funding to modernize medical information systems and funding to crack down on abuse and fraud against our public health systems. If the ACA was nothing more than a mandate, then you'd have a point, but the mandate is a mere fraction of the entire thing, so you don't.

[Jim Lane]

13. Obviously, no sensible person would contend that "the ACA was nothing more than a mandate"

You say that the differences between the ACA and the Heritage plan "are staggering." That's pretty clearly subjective. You're staggered by the differences. Fine, but there are also some similarities. I'd agree with you to the extent that it would be a lie to deny the differences, but I consider it also inaccurate to deny the similarities. It's a mixed bag.

DUers who point to the similarities are usually making one of two points. The first is to criticize Obama for pushing and implementing a "Republican plan" (from Heritage via Romneycare). The second is to criticize the Republicans for their hypocrisy in opposing something that they might well favor if it didn't come from Obama. The differences that you emphasize can legitimately be considered in response to each criticism. Even taking those into account, though, there's certainly room to criticize Obama for being too conservative, and to criticize the Republicans for being unwilling to negotiate at all even when Obama started out on their turf (rejection of single payer and even rejection of a public option).

[phleshdef]

15. Well lets get back to the post I was responding to, I think that should clear up any subjectivity.

"The GOP should love ObamaCare. It is rightwing Heritage Foundation's brainchild/wet dream."

Based on the plan the Heritage foundation was proposing and based on what was actually passed in the numerous pages of the ACA, I don't think its a stretch to say that the Heritage foundation would and does oppose the bulk of was makes up the ACA with the girth of regulations, massive expansion/shoring up of existing public health programs and generously subsidizing premiums for families who are riding the line above poverty but below prosperity. Its not subjective at all to say the 2 are vastly different plans when taken as a whole and not just focusing on the utilization of existing private insurance companies.

[alcibiades_mystery]

11. That's just blkmusclemachine's dumb talking point: it has no content

It's his usual Obama-hating mantra.

No use trying to refute silliness.

[phleshdef]

12. Oh I know, I see dude spouting off stuff like that all the time.

But occasionally, I have to inject some facts, if not for him then for other people who actually want to learn something beyond bumper sticker friendly bullshit.

[chuckstevens]

2. Excuse Me, but

then why the FUCK do these people keeping voting for right-wing nut jobs who screw them economically EVERY TIME?

[K lib]

5. Yeah i dont know

Like the woman who was unemployed living with her mother who did not have a computer. Why does she voting Republicans when Republicans are cutting her unemployment and probably her access to Medicaid

But in the article i did notice something about the messaging of the main stream media and how it was about the debate and the politics not how it can actually help people.

[johnlucas]

9. In the sex world, you might have heard of BDSM...

Those folks you're talking about are the M in BDSM.
Masochists.

Masochists love pain & live to be Bonded in Domination by Sadists.

It's bizarre but it's real & much more common than you think.
As we can see it exists in politics as well as the bedroom.
John Lucas

[Jim Lane]

14. I'd call it ignorance, not masochism.

The Republicans trot out these people who say that Obamacare has hurt them. It's amazing how many turn out not even to have checked the website.

Beyond that, of course, there are the social issues. You could be talking to some of these people about economic realities and a Republican would start yelling "Look! Over there! Two gay people trying to get married!" We can hope that that kind of distraction is losing its power but it still swings quite a few people to vote against their own interests, because they aren't even paying attention to the economics.

[johnlucas]

17. This thing ALSO exists because we don't know how to FINISH THE JOB

For some reason we, people in the Fairness/Progressive/Liberal/Whatever movement, never completely eradicate the opposition.
On this board there are posts from people figuring out how Republicans/Conservatives can improve.
You see Democrats on this board strategizing how Republicans can change.
Don't give this sinking man a rope, give him an ANCHOR!
What's wrong with you!

Some get sentimental about the foe sort of like The Joker is with Batman sometimes.
Been fighting so long they have a bond with their enemy.

The Progress Movement within the Democratic Party needs to think along the lines of Mortal Kombat & FINISH THEM.
If the U.S. government finished those traitors in the 1860s, a lot of this nonsense wouldn't even be going on right now.

I don't want the Republican Party & the Regressive AKA Conservative Movement to reform.
I want it DESTROYED!

The Democratic Party won't take the easy & necessary steps to root out this dead weight dragging down the country.
When the Republican Party courted the bigots for voting power, that was their demise.
Let's quicken that demise not postpone it.

Make everything a "Conservative" says poisonous to political thought.
Banish that insanity to the fringes where it belongs.
People under this banner shouldn't even get elected to dog catcher much less any higher office.

The Masochists like pain. Cool.
Let them enjoy it privately.
Don't let them spread their love of pain & suffering to everyone else.

If the Democratic Party did what it was supposed to do, the Republican Party & the "Conservative" AKA Regressive Movement it legitimizes wouldn't even exist right now.
They would have been dead & buried 20 years ago.

FINISH HIM!
FATALITY!
Flawless Victory.
John Lucas

[Cha]

3. K!

[IronLionZion]

16. Every Democrat running in a tough race should follow Mark Warner's lead

http://www.warner.senate.gov/public/index.cfm/healthcare

Offering support and specific improvements to fix coverage gaps and other problems. Low cost catastrophic and high deductible plans are important for bringing in healthy people into the risk pool and expanding coverage.

Full disclosure: I have a high deductible with HSA and would encourage other healthy folks to get the same instead of going without any coverage at all. Free preventive checkups and pre-tax deposits into the HSA.