F-16 fighter jets intercept Cessna in restricted Washington DC airspace

[marvinsacco]

Source: The Guardian

Two F-16 fighter jets intercepted a small civilian plane in restricted airspace around Washington DC over the weekend, authorities said on Monday. The pilot reported he did not realise he had entered an area that was off limits.

The North American Aerospace Defense Command, or Norad, said the jets scrambled from Joint Base Andrews in Maryland when a Cessna's pilot did not immediately respond to air traffic controllers Sunday afternoon.[div style="display:none;"]imlua
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Read more: http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/07/f16-fighter-jets-intercept-civilian-plane

[ForgoTheConsequence]

1. Happened Sunday afternoon.

...

[bigworld]

2. I've always wondered if sending fighter jets after Cessnas wasn't overkill

... I mean, can they fly as slow as a Cessna? Wouldn't it be more effective to send, say, a helicopter up?

[TwilightGardener]

6. Might not just be speed as consideration, might also be altitude.

Edit to add: I am by no means an aviation expert, though..

[DeSwiss]

7. Get to da choppa!!!!

- Choppa's are so 90's. And you can't swagger as hard as a F-16er.....

[IronGate]

8. Something like this would be more appropriate.

It can easily keep pace and shoot it down if needed.

[pangaia]

37. kerrrrsssspplluttttzzzitsss

[Xithras]

13. It's the closing time.

A helicopter or a prop plane could keep better pace with a Cessna, but they move much slower and would take longer to reach the plane in the first place. When you have a fast jet chasing down a slow plane, the jet can catch up quickly and figure out what the plane is doing. When you have a slow plane (or helicopter) chasing down a slow plane, it takes far more time for the "good guys" to catch up...meaning that the "bad guys" can get a LOT closer to their target before they're intercepted.

[AtheistCrusader]

14. It also makes the intercept more... dynamic.

Definitely going to get the Cessna pilot's attention.

[bigworld]

18. Ah, that makes sense.

[ashling]

34. What about one of these?

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

45. An F16 buzzing 10 feet over the Cessna would get his attention

He'd change direction in a hurry. And change his pants asap.

But, I'd bet they sent some slower craft as backup. I don't know if an F16 can fly "escort" to a relatively slow Cessna.

[TheNutcracker]

52. Well I always wonder why they sent NO fighter jets up during 911?????

[TwilightGardener]

3. I do hope they thoroughly investigate that pilot.

[JustABozoOnThisBus]

44. I'm sure they will ...

... and I'd bet it was just some guy not paying attention.

Note to self: don't get an airplane. I miss freeway exits while "otherwise mentally occupied" (daydreaming?).

[leftyohiolib]

4. yea sure a cessna but let a jumbo jet turn off it's transponder turn around and head for n.y.c.

and it's oh well nothing to see here

[GoneFishin]

9. ... and fly in circles for 45 minutes, including over nuclear power plants, no problem.

[AtheistCrusader]

12. That's WHY there is an overwhelming response now, and you know it.

In the past, things like this happened without overwhelming military response. Hell, a Cessna crashed into the WH lawn a while back.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frank_Eugene_Corder

[Blue_Tires]

15. +1...I remember that...

I'm kind of surprised that incident doesn't loom larger in the history of our collective minds...

And since then, any unidentified aircraft in Washington airspace can expect some company from Andrews pretty quickly...

[leftyohiolib]

17. well im sure you know this

NORAD Stand-Down
The Prevention of Interceptions of the Commandeered Planes
It is standard operating procedure (SOP) to scramble jet fighters whenever a jetliner goes off course or radio contact with it is lost. Between September 2000 and June 2001, interceptors were scrambled 67 times. 1 In the year 2000 jets were scrambled 129 times.

http://911research.wtc7.net/planes/analysis/norad/

[AtheistCrusader]

19. Wish ya'll would get off that nag and ride a real horse for a change.

[leftyohiolib]

23. i guess no comment on what YOU should have known-

[AtheistCrusader]

28. That there was no stand down order? Yes I know that. Why don't you?

No Stand-Down Order

Claim: No fighter jets were scrambled from any of the 28 Air Force bases within close range of the four hijacked flights. "On 11 September Andrews had two squadrons of fighter jets with the job of protecting the skies over Washington D.C.," says the Web site emperors-clothes.com. "They failed to do their job." "There is only one explanation for this," writes Mark R. Elsis of StandDown.net. "Our Air Force was ordered to Stand Down on 9/11."

FACT: On 9/11 there were only 14 fighter jets on alert in the contiguous 48 states. No computer network or alarm automatically alerted the North American Air Defense Command (NORAD) of missing planes. "They [civilian Air Traffic Control, or ATC] had to pick up the phone and literally dial us," says Maj. Douglas Martin, public affairs officer for NORAD. Boston Center, one of 22 Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) regional ATC facilities, called NORAD's Northeast Air Defense Sector (NEADS) three times: at 8:37 am EST to inform NEADS that Flight 11 was hijacked; at 9:21 am to inform the agency, mistakenly, that Flight 11 was headed for Washington (the plane had hit the North Tower 35 minutes earlier); and at 9:41 am to (erroneously) identify Delta Air Lines Flight 1989 from Boston as a possible hijacking. The New York ATC called NEADS at 9:03 am to report that United Flight 175 had been hijacked—the same time the plane slammed into the South Tower. Within minutes of that first call from Boston Center, NEADS scrambled two F-15s from Otis Air Force Base in Falmouth, Mass., and three F-16s from Langley Air National Guard Base in Hampton, Va. None of the fighters got anywhere near the pirated planes.

Why couldn't ATC find the hijacked flights? When the hijackers turned off the planes' transponders, which broadcast identifying signals, ATC had to search 4500 identical radar blips crisscrossing some of the country's busiest air corridors. And NORAD's sophisticated radar? It ringed the continent, looking outward for threats, not inward. "It was like a doughnut," Martin says. "There was no coverage in the middle." Pre-9/11, flights originating in the States were not seen as threats and NORAD wasn't prepared to track them.

[penultimate]

39. But thermite paint....

[GoneFishin]

21. That's a load of crap. Payne Stewart's rogue lear jet was prior to 9/11. A jet was scrambled ASAP ...

... for a golfer.

Never mind 4 plane loads of hundreds of civilians with mystery pilots obviously up to no good.

[AtheistCrusader]

29. An aircraft that flew on autopilot without deviating from it's course for hours.

Yes.

And?

Also, the first intercept was a unarmed training flight that happened to be in the area. So, not exactly 'scrambled'. You might want to check your facts.

[GoneFishin]

41. You might want to check your propaganda ... at the door.

No one is buying it. The stand down on 9/11 is well understood. There are multiple accounts of it. And the cover up of the air traffic activity includes an FAA manager confiscating a tape with evidence from an employee, chopping it into little pieces, then spreading the pieces around in trash cans all over the building.

Save your propaganda.

[AtheistCrusader]

43. Yeah, lets ignore that you completely botched the Payne issue.

An unarmed training flight that happened to be near enough to check the plane out = SCRAMBLED ASAP.

Save your inaccurate recollection of the facts.

[GoneFishin]

48. So they weren't contacted by the FAA to intercept the flight? Which orifice did you pull that from?

[AtheistCrusader]

49. They were asked to check it out. But they were already in the air, and could do dick all about it.

No weapons. Easy to find, since the aircraft was following its documented flight plan, and did not deviate. Never mind that its transponder was on and working.

That flight of military aircraft was not 'scrambled' to intercept. Words have meaning.

[GoneFishin]

53. "a pair of F-16 Falcons ... about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact."

10/26/1999
KRTBN Knight-Ridder Tribune Business News: The Dallas Morning News - Texas
Copyright (C) 1999 KRTBN Knight Ridder Tribune Business News; Source: World Reporter (TM)

MINA, S.D.--A Dallas-bound Learjet carrying U.S. Open golf champion Payne Stewart knifed nose-first into a grassy field southwest of Mina, S.D., on Monday after a ghostly ramble across America with no one at the controls.


.... "Flight controllers frantically tried to contact the Lear 35 by radio, and a series of military jets scrambled to chase the plane as it streaked along, guided by its auto-pilot system until the fuel supply finally ran out.

Capt. Kevin Bakke of the South Dakota Highway Patrol said he watched for three or four minutes as the plane sped across the sky, followed by two military jets. "....


.... "But there was no hint of trouble until the Lear failed to turn west over Florida's panhandle for its flight into Dallas Love Field." ....


.... "according to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to the stricken Lear, beginning with a pair of F-16 Falcons from the Air National Guard at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact.

An F-16 and an A-10 Warthog attack plane from Eglin Air Force Base, Fla., took up the chase a few minutes later and were trailing the Lear when it climbed abruptly from 39,000 to 44,000 feet at 9:52 a.m. CDT.

Fifteen minutes later, the F-16 intercepted the Lear, the pilot reporting no movement in the cockpit.

At 10:44 a.m., the fighters from Eglin diverted to St. Louis for fuel. Fifteen minutes later, four Air National Guard F-16s from Tulsa, Okla., took up the chase, accompanied by a KC-135 refueling tanker.

F-16s from Fargo, N.D., later scrambled to intercept the Lear jet, too. At noon Dallas time, the Fargo F-16s reported that the windows of the jet were fogged with ice and there was no evidence anyone was piloting the plane. "....

[AtheistCrusader]

54. Your source is stupid.

It was an HOUR and twenty minutes after contact was lost, not 20 minutes.

Your source:

".... "according to an Air Force timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to the stricken Lear, beginning with a pair of F-16 Falcons from the Air National Guard at Tyndall Air Force Base, Fla., about 20 minutes after ground controllers lost contact."

Corrected source, note the time zones:

"According to a USAF timeline, a series of military planes provided an emergency escort to the stricken Lear, beginning with an F-16 from Eglin Air Force Base, about an hour and twenty minutes (9:33 EDT to 9:52 CDT – see NTSB report on the crash) after ground controllers lost contact."


Flight 11 was noticed to have deviated at 08:16, and hit the tower at 08:46.
Flight 175 was noticed by the FAA to be deviated and doing weird shit at 08:51, hit the tower at 9:03.

Do the fucking math.

[GoneFishin]

55. What? Revisionist history after 9/11. SHOCKED I tell you, SHOCKED!

[AtheistCrusader]

56. Yeah, stick your fingers in your ears.

Works for my son when he doesn't want to hear something I guess.

[hack89]

20. You think perhaps that things are done differently since 9/11? Nt

[leftyohiolib]

22. it is something they did 129 times in the year of 911 just not when some very large jets

went rogue

[hack89]

31. Fighters were scrambled on 9/11. nt

[leftyohiolib]

35. guess you are technically correct but there are at least 2 aspects to scrambling jets in response

to jets going rogue. just throwing planes in the air isnt enough you have to get them to where the trouble is


failures to Scramble
No plausible explanation has been provided for failing to scramble interceptors in a timely fashion from bases within easy range to protect the September 11th targets. Fighters that were dispatched were scrambled from distant bases. Early in the attack, when Flight 11 had turned directly south toward New York City, it was obvious that New York City and the World Trade Center, and Washington D.C. would be likely targets. Yet fighters were not scrambled from the bases near the targets. They were only scrambled from distant bases. Moreover there were no redundant or backup scrambles.

New York City
Flight 11 had been flying south toward New York City from about 8:30 AM. Yet no interceptors were scrambled from nearby Atlantic City, or La Guardia, or from Langley, Virginia. Numerous other bases were not ordered to scramble fighters.

Washington D.C.
No interceptors were scrambled from Andrews Air Force Base to protect the capital, at least not before the Pentagon was hit. Andrews Air Force Base had two squadrons of fighters on alert, and is only about 10 miles from the Pentagon.

Failures to Intercept
Even though the interceptors were not dispatched from the most logical bases, the ones that were scrambled still had adequate time to reach their assigned planes. Why didn't they? Because they were only flying at a small fraction of their top speed. That is the conclusion implicit in NORAD's timeline.

[hack89]

46. Let me correct some errors and misconceptions in your post.

1. Fighters were scrambled from Langley.

2. Fighters were scrambled from both Otis and Langley. The reason that fighters were not scrambled from other bases is simple - on 9/11 there were only 14 fighters on strip alert at 7 airbases in all of America. Fighters are not like cars - they don't sit around full of gas and weapons ready to take off. The reason is simple - it is hard as hell to do maintenance on fully fueled and armed aircraft. An F 15 requires almost 20 man hours of maintenance per hour of flight - when they are not flying someone is working on them. Having weapons on the flight line also represents a security problem - that is why aircraft are never routinely armed unless they are specifically doing weapons training.

3. "only flying at a small fraction of their top speed." The issue here is that the top speed of a fighter is not a realistic reflection of their actual combat capabilities. The reason is that a fighter can only reach top speed with clean wings (no weapons or fuel tanks) and using afterburner. The problem is that afterburners use fuel at prodigious rates because they work by dumping raw fuel into the hot exhaust. An F-15 would run out of fuel at full afterburner in less than 30 minutes - that is why in combat afterburners are only used in emergencies. The F-15s that scrambled took off not only with missiles but with three 750 gallon external fuel tanks. With all that weight and drag, the aircraft could not reach top speed even with afterburners. They were only capable of about 500 knots (550 mph) with all that weight and drag.

I have seen your info many times - it always popped up in the old DU 2 9/11 forum. The person that wrote it has no idea how fighters actually operate in the real world.

[leftyohiolib]

47. thanks for the info

[olddad56]

38. The rules were different on 9-11, cause it was AN INSIDE JOB!!!!!

[GoneFishin]

42. Ding, ding, ding, ding. +1.

[Orrex]

24. Chuck Norris sez this thread is bound for the Gungeon

Bound, like your legs won't be, when you wear Chuck Norris Action Jeans.

[TwilightGardener]

27. Hidden gusset--that's what makes these pants so deadly.

[AtheistCrusader]

32. Wrong trash compactor.

This is bound for creative speculation. No guns.

[Orrex]

33. Whoops! Rookie mistake!

[DeSwiss]

5. They get there quick.....

...when it's a Cessna.

- Sure it wasn't McCain?

[yellowcanine]

10. My understanding from talking to pilots is that this is an easy mistake to make.

Particularly for pilots not all that familiar with the area and unexpected visibility problems occur.

[Blue_Tires]

11. For VERY green, amateur weekend flyers, maybe...

Spatial awareness is like part of Aviation 101...

[Orrex]

25. I don't see what the pilot's color has to do with it.

Oh, wait a minute.

[JohnnyRingo]

16. That's embarrassing

No greater shame for a general aviation pilot than to not be aware of his location. It happens, but in a modern plane like a Cessna, there are NAV instruments that make it difficult to explain.

GPS, which is now installed in nearly every aircraft, should eliminate any excuse.

[groundloop]

30. GPS is NOT in nearly every aircraft

Sure, many pilots carry handheld gps, but there are many many training type aircraft without it installed. And the FAA throws up temporary flight restrictions so often that it's darned difficult to keep track of.

Certainly I agree that it's ultimately the pilots responsibility for this, but I can definitely see this happening.

[liberal N proud]

26. What planet was this guy from?

"did not realize he had entered an area that was off limits"

The monuments and the big white dome didn't tell him he was in DC? and He didn't think DC was off limits?

[One_Life_To_Give]

36. Didn't want a repeat of 94 I guess

Shortly before 2 A.M. today, a small red-and-white plane flew low over 17th Street in the heart of the capital's downtown, banked left in a U-turn near the Washington Monument, and headed straight toward the President's bedroom in the White House.

No one tried to stop it.

[freshwest]

50. That was my first thought, too. nt

[ffr]

40. Not knowing is not an excuse. And if it is, then he/she should lose their license

for being incompetent and causing such a stir. F-16s cost money to fly, just like all jet aircraft.

From now on, just shoot them down.

[ret5hd]

51. Yeah!!!!

What could go wrong???