Death of consul's daughter spurs Venezuela outcry

[Bacchus4.0]

Source: AP

....CARACAS, Venezuela (AP) — The killing of a Chilean diplomat's teenage daughter by police is reigniting concerns among Venezuelans about excessive force by officers and their alleged involvement in rampant violent crime.

Nineteen-year-old Karen Berendique was riding in a vehicle with her older brother and another young man when police at a checkpoint opened fire early Saturday in the western city of Maracaibo, said her father Fernando Berendique, Chile's honorary consul in the city.

He said they ignored a police command to stop, fearing the officers might be robbers.

-----------------
Justice Ministry Tareck El Aissami said at the time in 2009 that the authorities believed police were involved in 15 to 20 percent of all crimes, particularly kidnapping and murder.



Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/death-consuls-daughter-spurs-venezuela-outcry-162718949.html

[Wilms]

1. So they blew a check-point and got shot?

What else do you have?

[Bacchus4.0]

2. an innocent 19 year old woman was killed, thats what n/t

s

[COLGATE4]

5. You demonstrate a lack of understanding

of how things work in Latin America. Often "police" checkpoints are used by criminals (and in another county guerrilla movements) to rob, carjack or kidnap occupants of the vehicle. In some Latin American cities, no one stops for red lights after about 8:00 PM for the same reason. Depending on what time of day this happened as well as where it happened blowing the 'checkpoint' may have well been thought to be the prudent option. Too bad that it had to cost a young life.

[izquierdista]

10. Estadounidense thinking

I fear it will take much more heavy handed police brutality for obsequious Americans to protest and speak up. At least in Latin America, the general population know the realities.

[pnwmom]

9. The police could have shot out a tire or two.

They didn't need to kill her.

[EFerrari]

13. At night, on a speeding car?

That would be hard to do.

Still, it's a terrible loss of a young life.

[pnwmom]

25. No harder than shooting her, at night, in a speeding car. All they had to do was aim lower.

[DRoseDARs]

28. Unless you know where to buy *magic bullets...

As said before, at night on a moving target, it's exceedingly difficult to hit precisely. Far easier for crooked cops to fire indiscriminately and hope the vehicle stops one way or the other.



*I say that sarcastically, but in reality bullets that are essentially miniature guided missiles aren't all that far off; actively being developed. Your world just got scarier, sorry about that. :-/

[joshcryer]

35. The car was hit by 6 bullets, the girl was hit by three.

Either that is utterly bad luck or they were aiming for an occupant.

[pnwmom]

39. If they were firing indiscriminately, how come they didn't manage to hit a tire

during their barrage? And half the bullets went into the girl?

[EFerrari]

51. The reporting of this shooting isn't great.

Maybe it's just too early. But, we don't know where the young lady was sitting or how many shots were fired or where they hit the car.

I was always afraid something like this would happen to my cousin who lives in San Salvador. The family home is essentially in a fortress and with so many guns around, I was always afraid there would be an accident like this.

[joshcryer]

21. The police could've turned on their police lights.

You know, those red flashy things that say "I'm the police."

There is more to this story than meets the eye.

I suspect they were trying to kidnap her and didn't want to draw attention by having their flashing lights on, because once they had her they would pull away and it would be so obvious what happened to any witnesses. With the lights off they could avoid drawing attention to themselves, pull away quietly, and any witnesses might not even have noticed that there was a "checkpoint."

[backwoodsbob]

15. si it's like that kid in Florida

he argued with an authority figure and got shot...what else do you have?

[joshcryer]

20. A checkpoint in the second deadliest country on the planet, with no police lights on?

Would you stop at such a "checkpoint"?

It's a coin flip.

[MADem]

3. He said they ignored a police command to stop, fearing the officers might be robbers.

How charming, that it's so easy to fake being the police.

Clearly, if they thought the checkpoint was a fake, this kind of robbery scheme is a fact of life. Either that, or they figured the real police would rob them....

[COLGATE4]

6. Please see my response (above)

Tell me all the Latin American countries where you've lived to justify your statement about "so easy to fake being the police".

[Lucky Luciano]

7. It looks like MADem kind of gets your point.

I have driven in Ecuador and blown red lights to avoid carjacking threats. I was taking the advice of my passengers who were my girlfriend's cousins. Venezuela is probably worse with their crime rate.

[COLGATE4]

8. Yep. I lived in Ecuador for four years

and regularly did that. Wouldn't let my wife drive at all because of fear of the Transit Police - too many women wind up getting a 'rape' ticket. Venezuela, particularly Caracas is infinitely worse. A good friend of mine's daughter was saved in Caracas from being at best raped and at worst killed by a couple of Venezuelan National Policeman, who stopped her car at gunpoint, got in and forced her to drive to some out of the way place. She was only saved because she was extremely lucky and got stopped by a local cop for a traffic infraction while she was driving with the two cops in the car. The local cop saw what was happening and ordered the two National Policeman out of her car at gunpoint. Otherwise...

[MADem]

18. I don't understand why I would have to take up residence to make an observation.

What is your point?

[COLGATE4]

36. My point is that unless you have some

understanding of how things work in that part of the world your observations are simply unsubstantiated conjecture.

[MADem]

42. I've lived all over the world. I also learned to read when I was three years old.

I think I have a pretty decent understanding of "how things work" in countries that are very corrupt, not terribly corrupt, and halfway decent.

And see, that reading skill I picked up enables me to read reports from others, and draw conclusions based on my understanding of what has been said in them.

I know that corruption exists in VZ, and I don't think I have to go become a "resident" of VZ to figure out that it's an issue there.

Good grief, by your standards no one had better have anything to say about polar ice melting, if they haven't "resided" on one of the two poles.

Big eye roll, there, pal. Not the way to make your case.

[COLGATE4]

73. With that reading expertise I can see how you

concluded that "How charming, that it's so easy to fake being the police". I never said you needed to be a resident of any place to discuss corruption - my point was simply that you're opining about something that I seriously doubt you have any knowledge about.

[MADem]

90. Well, say...speaking of reading, that line of mine you quoted was a riff off my subject line...

WHICH WAS A QUOTE LIFTED ENTIRELY FROM THE ARTICLE.

You can "seriously doubt" all you want--and you'd be wrong!

But you have one of those "I'm the smartest guy in the room" nice days, now.

[DFW]

12. It IS easy to fake being the police, unfortunately

And not just in Latin America.

Eastern European gangs are doing exactly the same thing in France, Italy, Belgium, Holland, and here in Germany.
Robberies and breakins by professional gangs from Eastern Europe are becoming epidemic here in western Europe.

[MADem]

17. Bummer. nt

[DFW]

72. Yeah, I wish I could say otherwise.

A company I know got a million euros of sensitive stuff stolen in Belgium when a fake police brigade stopped
the FedEx truck that was carrying their stuff to the airport, manhandled the driver, and knew exactly which
packages to take out of the FedEx truck. These gangs are VERY well organized, and they have their own people
on the inside of security agencies, the Post, and the transport agencies (FedEx, DHL, etc.). There are so many
legit immigrants from Eastern Europe here now, that it is impossible to know who the bad eggs are.

In southern France, a couple of years ago, a fake police gang stopped a Brinks armored car delivering cash
to banks and blew it open with a bazooka, killed a couple of the Brinks guys. The cops do nothing because
the justice system is often very lenient (in the name of "tolerance" for the poor disadvantaged Eastern Europeans,
which only provides fuel to xenophobic rightist extremists, predictably and unfortunately), and the bad guys,
even if they are caught, are usually released with a warning. This is not an exaggeration. About 3 years ago,
I helped catch the head of a group of professional thieves from Croatia that was operating in Germany. The
local cops asked for his ID, and he produced a German passport with a Croatian entry stamp but no exit stamp.
The guy was asked a few questions, and he said he didn't understand German, even though his birthplace
and place of residence, according to his passport, said he was a German living in Germany. He had obviously
obtained a passport stolen from a German vacationing in Croatia. The cops hauled him off. Within 3 days, he was
taken before a judge, who decided it was "only a minor passport violation," and freed the guy with no further
action to be taken. This demoralizes the local European cops, and emboldens the bad guys. One of the
forseeable bad effects of this is that it will fuel a demand for overly harsh police action and looser firearms
restrictions in countries that have been considered fairly safe due to tough firearms laws. The radical right will
eat this stuff up, and Western Europe will have its own teabaggers (minus the religion) within ten years if they
don't start doing something about it.

[Comrade Grumpy]

4. That is too bad. Apparently trigger-happy cops aren't just a problem here.

Can we pin it on Chavez somehow?

Seriously, if it helps advance the cause of reforming the Venezuelan police, that would be a good thing.

[COLGATE4]

11. The lousy economy in Venezuela which

has fostered rampant crime in Caracas can certainly be laid at Chavez's feet.

[joshcryer]

19. According to Chavez' justice minister in 2009 15-20% of murder and kidnappings were done by police.

Think about that. 15-20% of hard crime was done by the police.

Frankly I think they were intending to kidnap this young woman.

[Comrade Grumpy]

23. That's a terrifying estimate. Makes it sound like Mexico or something.

The cartels are paying for potential up-and-coming cops to get in the state police academies. Talk about a long-term investment strategy!

There's a whole literature on the links between the cops and the narcos. "El Sicario" by Charles Bowden and Molly Molloy is an especially chilling read.

[COLGATE4]

74. In some ways the out of control crime wave

in Caracas is similar to Mexico.

[reorg]

14. I'll keep that in mind the next time I run into a police checkpoint

and speed right through, fearing the officers might be robbers.

Uh, and I actually WAS robbed by the traffic police in Acapulco just a few months ago. Never occured to me, though, to speed through one of those numerous checkpoints where they point machine guns at you.

[joshcryer]

16. I suppose you don't live in the second deadliest (murderous) country on the planet?

Because I know how I'd behave if I did.

I mean, Venezuela is more deadly than Iraq or Afghanistan. Hell, Syria is safer!

Think about that one.

[reorg]

22. I'm not a rich kid

thinking they can get away with everything they do.

No, I'll stick to my personal policy to comply and be as friendly as I can muster when the police are pointing machine guns at me.

[joshcryer]

24. I expect the prosecution of these criminals.

As I would expect the prosecution of any criminal police who overstep their boundaries.

This young woman was in Venezuela getting her education, for all you know she may have even told the driver to stop.

As another poster said, this is estadounidense thinking at its core.

Sorry you got robbed.

Glad you didn't get shot and killed afterward.

[pnwmom]

26. The point is that some people are masquerading as police

and some police are criminals.

Would you still comply if you weren't sure the "police" were legitimate?

[reorg]

31. no, the point is

that some young dude didn't stop when he ran into a checkpoint and the police opened fire to stop him. Happens everywhere, but when it happens in Maracaibo, Zulia, people use the occasion to spread a little hate about the president of that country.

You don't know that "some people" are "masquerading as police" in Maracaibo, Zulia. You have read that some guy used this as an excuse. And, yes, of course I will comply if someone points a gun at me, whether or not they claim to be the police, whether or not they may be corrupt, or just poor and struggling to buy some sweets for their little ones.

[Judi Lynn]

32. Where I live, cops have killed citizens for a broad variety of bogus reasons, no end in sight,

but no one has ever thought to try to blame the President of the country for any of them.

Odd, isn't it?

We've let such great opportunities get by us all this time, while the true geniuses among us turn these events into golden propaganda opportunities.

Thanks for pointing it out for the slow ones. They should realize people DO see directly right through them.

[joshcryer]

33. I don't see much Chavez bashing here. In fact I only see one instance where the comparison is made.

Most people are pointing out that it's not unreasonable to go through a supposed "checkpoint" where no police lights are flashing in a country that is extremely deadly where this sort of thing is not unheard of.

[joshcryer]

34. No, the point is that it's not unreasonable for some young dude to fear for his life...

...at a "checkpoint" where no police lights were flashing.

The only thing this might have to do with the "president of that country" is that crime rates have skyrocketed since the "president of that country" came to power, necessitating people being cautious about "checkpoints" after dark. Particularly checkpoints where no police lights were flashing.

That "some guy used this as an excuse" is just whitewashing corrupt police practices. If that happened here we would not be defending the police.

"Checkpoint extortion" is extremely common in the developing world, as you yourself experienced.

But somehow American complacency is to tell others that they should suck it up.

BTW, it was night time, you don't know if they saw guns until it was too late. You don't know what was going through the mind of the driver.

[reorg]

43. that is not the claim

Last edited Sun Mar 18, 2012, 11:48 PM - Edit history (1)

Who said these people didn't stop because they were fearing for their lives?

The only thing I have read is that the rich guy, the consul, thinks his son, when prompted to stop, may have failed to comply for fear of getting robbed. Perhaps not unreasonable if you drive a nice and shiny Chevrolet TrailBlazer in a third world country, I don't know.

OTOH, the police may have felt the pressure to do something about the high level of crime. Their task was to check vehicles and find out if they were stolen - in the case of some young dudes sitting in a rich dude's car perhaps not a completely unreasonable assumption either.

When the police asked the driver to stop, while three of them were pointing their guns at the vehicle, the driver backed off at high speed and drove away. Some shots were fired, nobody was hit. Two policemen on motorbikes started a chase, firing a few shots of which one hit a tire, and two went through a door and hit the girl (see source below).

The police officers were later arrested and are being investigated over use of excessive force. Perhaps we should wait and see what comes of this investigation before we get all hysterical about an incident that in no way concerns us, not being citizens of Maracaibo, Zulia, or any place else in Venezuela?

I don't think "checkpoint extortion" is "extremely common" in the "developing world", no. I was robbed of all my cash in Acapulco by the traffic police, but that was not at one of those checkpoints where they point guns at you (and I passed a lot of those, too). They simply came by claiming I had passed a red light. Not true, but they routinely do this to all foreigners driving a rental car, assuming, of course, we can easily afford to pay a few hundred dollars and that they should get their cut. In Ghana, I was occasionally stopped by the police under some or other phony pretext, but if you would talk to them, were friendly and handed over a pack of smokes, they'd let you go. Similar stuff has happened to me elsewhere, I was robbed a few times, in Quito at knifepoint in the open street, but I can't say I ever ran into anything really vicious which made me fear for my life.

El funcionario del Cuerpo de Investigaciones Científicas, Penales y Criminalísticas (Cicpc) reveló al medio web Noticias al Día que eran las diez de la noche (del viernes) cuando todo sucedió. El subcomisario Oswaldo Mendoza y el grupo que estaba desplegado en la zona norte de Maracaibo para contrarrestar el robo y hurto de vehículos detuvieron un auto Matíz entre el barrio Teotiste de Gallego y la urbanización Monte Bello. Era la primera acción que ejecutaron y minuciosamente chequeaban el auto.

Cuenta el policía que "en ese momento una camioneta TrailBlazer, gris, se acercaba de frente y fue allí donde comenzó la desgracia. Cuando la camioneta estaba cerca tres funcionarios sacaron sus armas y apuntaron hacia el vehículo. El conductor, en vez de detenerse aceleró hacia atrás rápidamente y los policías comenzaron a dispararles. Una sola bala alcanzó el parabrisas y el chofer giró su camioneta, se devolvió a toda velocidad y se acentuaron los disparos".

"Dos funcionarios en una moto iniciaron una persecución al tiempo que le disparaban. Uno de los proyectiles le estalló un caucho (neumático) trasero y dos entraron por la puerta trasera atravesando la lata. Estos dos últimos disparos fueron los que impactaron a la joven en la región occipital, nuca y el dedo meñique izquierdo", añade en su declaración.

En su relato el policía explica que Fernando, hermano de Karen y conductor de la TrailBlazer propiedad del cónsul, se detuvo al notar que su hermana estaba herida, en momentos donde los efectivos que habían disparado no sabían quienes eran los ocupantes del vehículo, aunque "rápidamente se enteraron que habían cometido un error".

http://www.emol.com/noticias/internacional/2012/03/18/531411/policia-arrestado-por-asesinato-de-hija-de-consul-en-maracaibo-fueron-cinco-los-que-dispararon.html

[joshcryer]

45. Yes, because the proper move over a stolen car is to execute the occupants.

Dark, no police lights flashing, no cones placed as per police procedure, guns being pointed at you, in a country with the second most highest murder rate in the world, and you're going to tell me you'd sit there and take it like a good boy.

I'm glad these criminal scum of cops got arrested and I hope they toss them into Venezuela's overfilling prisons.

[pnwmom]

38. The "some guy" you refer to is a diplomat from Chile.

Where is the "hate" you are referring to?

[reorg]

49. I don't know where he is from

But, in case you didn't know, honorary consuls are usually not citizens of the "sending country", they are people with business contacts to that country and have only limited official functions, in a city other than the capital, where the actual diplomat, the ambassador usually resides.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Consul_%28representative%29#Honorary_consul

If the very same thing had happened to some other rich dude's daughter, in a country with good relations to the US, say in India, Thailand or the Philippines, we would hear diddly about it in the press.

[harmonicon]

71. +1 nt.

[MADem]

44. I'm betting hard cars (bullet proofed) and ballistic clothing are big sellers lately.

One of the most fashionable purveyors of ballistic clothing is based in Colombia--Miguel Caballero. Hugo and Uribe buy his shit. Even Obama has a few items from this guy in his wardrobe--the stuff is very high quality--you'd have a hard time knowing what it was, unless you already know. Looks good, too.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Miguel_Caballero_(company)

http://www.miguelcaballero.com/cms/front_content.php

[joshcryer]

46. Armored cars are a big thing in Caracas. Of course, you mention it...

...you get slandered, so it's not even worth it to point it out.

[MADem]

48. I've driven a hard car a time or two--difficult as hell.

They're so heavy you have to drive way ahead of yourself--no texting while driving with those bad boys. The real good ones, you can't hear the traffic. They go through fuel like crap through a goose. The brakes wear out on them relatively quickly. I admire anyone that does that for a living--there's a skill to it.

I can see where they'd come in handy in that neck o'the woods.

[Comrade Grumpy]

87. It is a whole region of high murder rates.

I hope no one is implying that the murder rate is a function of Chavez' rule, because that would not explain the similarly high murder rates in Honduras, El Salvador, St. Kitts and Nevis, Jamaica, Belize, Bahamas, and Colombia.

The Wikipedia list I'm relying on has Venezuela as number four, by the way. I do note some variation in the lists.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_intentional_homicide_rate

[joshcryer]

93. Yeah, but by your own link, South America's crime is down, but it's up in Venezuela.

Why is that, I wonder?

I think Venezuela was #2 a few years ago, so I stand corrected on that count. But being number #4 on that list is nothing to be proud of. It's a horrific statistic, and it's hard to know for sure because the Venezuelan government doesn't do the numbers anymore (they used to, but it got so high that they decided to stop doing them).

I'm reminded of this popular rap song in Venezuela:

And this one, in English (more for export):

Ironically the guy in the video, OneChot, was shot recently.

[Snake Alchemist]

27. Spoken like someone who's only experienced first world problems.

http://first-world-problems.com/

[reorg]

30. are you talking to me?

I have stayed in third world countries long enough to know that the upper classes there have more dough and luxuries than I and probably you can ever dream of. I couldn't care less if their offspring are held up every now and then. And I can also accept that I was robbed in such countries, occasionally. Since I paid up when I was asked, they didn't need to get brutal.

[COLGATE4]

75. Nothing like generalizing

based on a couple of tourist experiences.

[reorg]

83. Sure, whatever.

So, how many times did you decide to speed away from a police checkpoint where several guns were pointed at you?

I need some hardcore advice from an experienced man, or else I might be tempted to emulate Barry Newman in Vanishing Point (1971).

[COLGATE4]

85. You obviously have no idea what you're talking about.

I (and family members as well) have on more than one occasion dodged or reversed away from questionable 'police' checkpoints. Another BIL wasn't so lucky- his 'police' checkpoint turned out to be FARC, who forced him, his wife and 2 little kids to transport a wounded guerrilla member. If they had been stopped by the Army they would have gone to jail for aiding insurgents.

[era veteran]

29. Sorry, I cannot believe any Democrat would stick up for that rotten government.

FYI:
In the USA there are people doing home invasions. I personally know of one. The perps had black, 'POLICE' shirts , badges, & black weapons.
Sickening that this death/murder is defended by some here. I will stay away from this. It would be nice to see some retraction.
Cults of personality rot into this.

[bitchkitty]

37. Sorry, I cannot believe any Democrat WOULDN'T. n/t

[Bacchus4.0]

76. Chavez and being a Democrat have nothing to do with each other. I agree with the previous poster n/t

s

[bitchkitty]

88. They have everything to do with being a Democrat,

as opposed to being a corporatist, propaganda spreading mouthpiece for the right wing.

[Bacchus4.0]

89. they have absolutely nothing to do with being a Democrat n/t

s

[provis99]

40. the police in Venezuela are overwhelmingly right-wing.

They are there to protect the upper class. I think it's sick anyone would come on DU and defend those crypto-fascists.

[joshcryer]

41. LOL, "they're there to protect the upper class." Which is why they do "express kidnappings."

I can't believe this crap.

[era veteran]

54. I am not sticking up for the Goddamn Police

I think it is fucking sick to say this. I am pointing out that even here bad police shit happens.

[EFerrari]

47. That doesn't even make sense.

The young woman was not shot by federal forces. Her driver ran a police checkpoint. It has nothing to do with the Venezuelan government.

[Judi Lynn]

53. Such a small detail, isn't it? It requires intelligence to grasp that distinction. n/t

[Broderick]

59. I wouldn't fight it

It is what it is. Don't worry about it. Can't change minds and hearts. In some cases, a large contingent of Mugabe supports quietly went away, but the dream is still there. Theory about what the dream is, is not a dead issue though, and many things will get overlooked about someone doing it and you can't overcome that. Not here.

[EFerrari]

60. Could you rephrase that because I have no idea what you just said. n/t

[Broderick]

63. lol. IOW

The idea of Chavez is appealing to some, as was Mugabe in the past. If one wants to take on the battle that wages on this board from time to time, it is difficult because the idea of what he stands for is noble, but I think the battle lies in what he is and who he is. Hard to explain. Not wanting to step into that particular battle, only wanting to let cooler heads prevail is all.

[EFerrari]

65. Yes, this topic gets very heated.

The thing is, Chavez is only one of a group of leftist leaders that came into power when Rumsfeld was salivating over Iraq. I think for some of us, he became an icon for that democratizing wave. But Honduras, Nicaragua, El Salvador, Chile, Argentina, Ecuador, Bolivia all profited from the neo-cons neglect for most of a decade. That window closed at about the time Obama was elected. Maybe we talk about Chavez because he's blunt and colorful but, he's certainly not the only notable leader in the new regional left.

[Broderick]

67. That I agree with

Again, I have always thought it was the idea of Chavez, or insert name here. He just seems to be one that has a lot of glare on him, and perhaps a lot of that is to do with the personality. I think he uses some of his rhetoric just for that effect, and sometimes one needs a villain to create the support. Bush was quite successful in that, unfortunately.

[EFerrari]

70. I think he also draws fire on purpose

because he can, because of Venezuela's strong position. Iow, he says things out loud that leaders in more weakly positioned countries can't say. That's his role in the region and one reason that he gets so much support from other left leaning presidents.

But I totally understand why he seems obnoxious to some Americans who are used to a more deferential attitude. That's him but it's also the role he's played on the continent.

[era veteran]

61. Yes I know, Too many TBI's from keeping these cultist free to post about their hero.

The far left may take over DU but they have a snowball's chance in hell of taking over the Democratic Party.
There is a difference in being on the left and being a Communist.
The left and right hire these constant trolls to keep their shit stirred up.

[Broderick]

64. Just trying to prevent a coronary here is all

This debate on Chavez gets heated, and I have seen folks that purport to live there be trounced here from time to time because I feel the idea of Chavez, as it was with Mugabe, is perhaps noble; but the picture is so unclear and the man may not be what he appears. Hard to disseminate the information because information is so unreliable from the press here or anywhere. Some just like the fact that he hates America, and what he stands for means nothing. Shrug.

[EFerrari]

68. Since Hugo Chavez didn't shoot this young woman

and since none of his security forces did, I don't see what this has to do with him except as an occasion for his detractors to get some licks in. Whatever.

[Broderick]

69. That may very well be true

[era veteran]

55. I has everything to do with that government.

[EFerrari]

58. Can you explain how?

[era veteran]

62. That Government checkpoint thing

Did you happen to get stopped at one of those in the States lately?
Were the govermental police shooting their own civillian bullets on their time off?
Sticking up for the uncalled for murder of a young student is not worthy.

[EFerrari]

66. It was a police checkpoint, not a government checkpoint.n/t

[Bacchus4.0]

77. the police force is the National police, corruption and murder are rampant

and that is within the police force. not to mention incompetence. speaking of incompetence, Hugo is the national leader. If you don't think he has some responsibility for domestic security and overall oversight of the national police force, what do you think his duties are?

[EFerrari]

79. Chavez is the president of the republic, not the chief of police. n/t

[Bacchus4.0]

81. ahhh OK, criminal elements in the national police force, and lack of general public security

aren't issues of concern for a president of the republic. Chavez can't be worried about the murder rate and corrupt national police force as he has alot on his hands. I mean there are businesses to nationalize and blame to direct at the US for Ven's problems.

[EFerrari]

94. Since you have been involved in the discussion of Ven police reform since 2009 or so

this post of yours doesn't bear inspection except as flame bait and I'll pass, thanks.

[COLGATE4]

84. No. It was a checkpoint for the CICPC,

the Cuerpo de Investigaciones Cientificas, Penales y Criminalisticas of the National Police.

[ieoeja]

86. Police roadblocks in the United States? Er, well, yeah. We have them all the time.

Ever since Reagan launched his War on Alcohol.

And if you know anything about Chavez you must surely know that his popularity in Venezuela extends from the period in which he led the VZ Special Forces in crushing an armed Communist insurgency. His military superiors had to first initiate a temporary coup against a pro-US Rightist gov't that was, in typical Rightist fashion, just trying to protect themselves. The generals then turned Chavez loose.

He led the gov't forces out of the cities into the countryside easily defeating the Communist insurgency.

Finding the people starving, he then confiscated food in the warehouses destined to be exported because the owners could make more money selling it outside the country than using it to feed the people in the country. The owners were principally American owned global companies like Dole Foods. Hence, the profusion of propaganda against Chavez despite his putting down a Communist insurgency.

And calling him a Communist after he defeated the Communist insurgency is the silliest part of that propaganda.

But that is US national security for you. We backed the Islamists over the Socialists in Pakistan because we would rather have people killing everyday Americans than having people steal money from wealthy Americans. Our national security policy is, unfortunately, setup to help a fraction of a fraction of a percent of Americans while harming the vast majority of this country. Consider:

When Leftists in South America increase minimum wages this makes both workers and companies in the US more competitive. A win-win for both US business and workers. Unless you are part of that fraction of a fraction of a percent that owns global companies employing workers in South America. Then it hurts you because you have to pay them more. Plus, it makes smaller (but still huge) companies in the US more competitive to you. So what has been this country's response? In each and every instance, we have sided with the global companies over the American companies and their employees.

[Bacchus4.0]

78. wrong. the police were in fact from the national police force the CICPC

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cuerpo_de_Investigaciones_Cient%C3%ADficas,_Penales_y_Criminal%C3%ADsticas

[EFerrari]

80. The point still stands.

The checkpoint was set up by the police to do police business. The office of the executive had nothing to do with it. And in fact, the president has condemned this shooting and a number of policemen have been detained.

Using the death of this girl to bash Chavez is pretty low. Her family has been in Venezuela for decades and they must be devastated.

[Bacchus4.0]

82. I am not bashing Chavez for the killing of the young women, I am saying he does have responsibility

for oversight of the national police force as the leader of the country.

[octothorpe]

50. This would be considered unacceptable by most people here if this took place in the US

I'm surprised how there are more than a few who seem to defend this to some extent.

[EFerrari]

52. I don't see anyone defending the shooting of this young woman. n/t

[joshcryer]

91. At the bare minimum we wouldn't call it "accidential" like post #51.

[Bacchus4.0]

92. indeed. aiming and shooting at a car and the occupants isn't an accident n/t

s

[2ndAmForComputers]

95. It's almost funny how police brutality suddenly becomes a bad thing.