Special police shot Kiev protesters, inquiry says

[The Magistrate]

Source: BBC News

Interior Minister Arsen Avakov told reporters 12 members of the Berkut police had been identified as snipers, and three of them had been arrested.

He presented what he said was new evidence from the shootings on 18-20 February, when 76 people were killed.

Mr Avakov gave details of one particular episode where he said the inquiry had established that eight of those killed were hit by bullets from the same machine-gun.

"From the side of the the Zhovtnevy Palace, a special squad from the riot Berkut police, wearing yellow armbands, opened fire at the protesters. Much of this fire was targeted. We are carrying out ballistics tests on the weapons," Mr Avakov said.

Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26868119

---

Doubtless this will be dismissed by some who are willing to believe without question what is said by the Russian government, but it is worth noting Mr. Avakov is conducting a crack-down on far-right elements those same people routinely allege are the real power behind the present government in Ukraine, and the 'real' snipers to boot....

[dipsydoodle]

1. Ukraine protesters were killed under Yanukovich's 'direct leadership'

(Reuters) - The killing of anti-government protesters in the Ukrainian capital Kiev in February took place "under the direct leadership" of ousted President Viktor Yanukovich, security chiefs said on Thursday.

The charges were made during a news conference by the prosecutor general and heads of the interior ministry and state security service at which they blamed the shooting deaths of more than 100 people on the Berkut riot police.

Moscow-backed Yanukovich fled Kiev on February 21, the day after the worst of the killings by sniper fire, and was ousted by parliament on February 22.

"The former government of the country gave criminal orders and a huge number of people suffered in the 'mincer'," said Interior Minister Arsen Avakov.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2014/04/03/us-ukraine-crisis-killings-idUSBREA320QO20140403

[KoKo]

20. Here is bio of newly appointed Interior Minister Arsen Avakov

He founded his own bank...so he has experience that will be helpful to Ukraine going forward. Also his abilities as a Systems Engineer in Water Protection. Sounds like an excellent pick for Interior Minister for Ukraine to move ahead with new Parliament. Hopefully he will be a balance against any RW/Neo Nazi types who want to be a larger voice after the elections.

----------
Armenian Arsen Avakov Elected as Ukraine’s Interim Interior Minister



KIEV—Following the events of the past weekend, as a result of which Ukraine President Viktor Yanukovich was stripped of his powers, the Ukrainian Parliament elected opposition lawmaker Arsen Avakov as interior minister on Saturday until the formation of a new coalition government.

Avakov takes over the powerful post after lawmakers on Friday dismissed Vitaly Zakharchenko, an ally of embattled President Viktor Yanukovich, following two days of carnage in the capital, Kiev.

Arsen Avakov was born on January 2, 1964 in Kirova town (Kirovskiy district which is now Binagadinskiy district) of Baku (Azerbaijan) into a military family and is of Armenian ethnicity.

Since 1966 Avakov has been permanently residing in Ukraine.

From 1981 to 1982 Arsen Avakov worked as a laboratory assistant at the Chair for Automated Control Systems in Kharkiv Polytechnic Institute.

In 1988 he graduated from Kharkiv Polytechnic Institute as a systems engineer with a major in automated control systems.

From 1987 to 1990 Avakov was employed by All-Union Scientific-Research Institute on Water Protection (Kharkiv) as an engineer.

In 1990 Arsen Avakov founded and headed “Investor” JSC, аnd “Basis” Commercial Bank later in 1992.

In 2002 Avakov was elected a Member of the Executive Committee of Kharkiv City Council.

On February 4, 2005 by the Decree of the President of Ukraine Arsen Avakov was appointed the Head of Kharkiv Regional State Administration [ and resigned from the position of the Head of “Investor” JSC and “Basis” Commercial Bank Supervisory Board.

On March 26, 2006 he was elected a Deputy of Kharkiv Regional Council of the 6th convocation, a member of the Standing Committee on Budgetary Issues.

On October 31, 2010 Arsen Avakov was elected a Deputy of Kharkiv Regional Council of the 6th convocation, a member of the Standing Committee on Science, Education, Culture, Historical Heritage, Intellectual Wealth and National Minorities.

http://asbarez.com/119929/armenian-arsen-avakov-elected-as-ukraine%E2%80%99s-interim-interior-minister/

[Bosonic]

2. Ukrainian officials hint at Russian involvement in deaths of protesters

Ukrainian officials hint at Russian involvement in deaths of protesters

Top Ukrainian officials have insinuated that Russian security services had a hand in the violence that led to more than 100 deaths in Kiev last month, and announced that a dozen Ukrainian police officers have been detained on suspicion of carrying out the shooting.

Arsen Avakov, Ukraine's interim interior minister, said his predecessor Vitali Zakharchenko, currently on the run, was directly involved in giving orders to shoot at protesters, along with the SBU security services.

Valentyn Nalivaichenko, the new head of the SBU, added that a number of officers from Russia's FSB had been consulting with the SBU in Kiev in December and January, and that Russian citizens were present at SBU headquarters. He also claimed that explosives and weapons were delivered to Ukraine from Russia during the protest period.

More than 100 people were killed during February's violence. The ousted president, Viktor Yanukovych, denied he had any involvement in ordering the sniper attacks during an interview on Thursday. Yanukovych fled Kiev shortly after the shootings and eventually left Ukraine for Russia, where he now lives.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/apr/03/ukraine-detains-12-police-shooting-protesters-yanukovych-riot-kiev

[go west young man]

34. The question remains who is shooting at 3:40 in this BBC video. Sniper shoots at BBC crew.

Crew scream fuck then runs for cover. They locate sniper window and identify them as wearing a protesters helmet. The window the sniper is in correlates to the windows of the original sniper video and bullet path trajectories as explained in my previous thread. Ukraines grassy knoll. This is most likely the sniper who killed people in the original video. Other video links are included at the attached DU thread.
Why is this sniper who is in the Hotel Ukraine, which was used by the protesters as is evidenced in the BBC video, shooting at people on the protester side of the conflict? Obviously it's more complex and something else was going on.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/10024616147

[Boreal]

37. Shots came opposition controlled territory

I've followed this very closely, and have seen this video, on top of being glued to my monitor as it all went down. It's soooo obvious that the snipers were brought in to make sure the coup didn't fail. Never mind that cops were murdered, too. Cops wouldn't shoot their own and Yanukovych didn't order it. I've also been monitoring the set up up of Yanukovych for this, which has been coming heavy from the Mockingbird press. Right Sector and Svoboda were useful as fighters AND as victims and now opposition leadership, secure in their appointed positions, want them gone. Killing some of them that day, to make sure Yanukovych was driven out, was a strategic decision, nothing more. Now comes their Warren Commission report to cover their asses and hang their enemy.

It should also be noted that Yanukovych was criticized by his own party and Russian speaking parts of Ukraine for being too passive and allowing the rioters to take over the square and buildings. He may be a pig at the trough but he's not responsible for this.

[go west young man]

41. Welcome to DU.

I agree with some of your thoughts on this but I differ in what faction was doing the shooting. I theorize it was the hard right sector guys doing the shooting...and shooting primarily moderate Western Ukrainian protesters. The shooting victims in the video's seem of a different character and type in comparison to the violent youth mobs that began the earliest protests. The victims are primarily middle aged and cautious in their movements as they move up the street. The Right Sector/Svoboda types are primarily aggressive youth and assorted tough nut types. I think the Right Sector used the other group as patsies and sent them into the crossfire and then killed them themselves knowing that the action would draw the West in and put the blame on the pro Russian government. Here's additional prepared BBC footage where he identifies the green helmet of a protester. It's at the 2:36 mark in this one.

[Boreal]

43. You may be right

I'd like to know exactly who all of the victims were but we'll never get that info.

Remember the truce signed on February 19? There was no way the opposition (or the State Dept) wanted that to hold. There was plenty of motive to make sure that it didn't. It called for early elections (before the end of the year) and it's likely that with elections there would have been no IMF agreement. Candidates would have had time to warn Ukrainians about what an IMF deal actually meant and the people would have realized they had a much better deal with the loan (and gas discount) from Russia.

I hate seeing this happen because innocent people are about to be framed and imprisoned.

Thank you for the welcome.

[KoKo]

3. Here is a more detailed article than BBC's from "Russia Today" report of investigations

I didn't see this new report from "Russia Today" disputing what the BBC article says but rather giving more information than the BBC did into background and the conflicting information about what went on in that massacre.

In fairness, the BBC also has an interest in bending news to the European view when it suits them and their interests. Just as our own NYT and WaPo do when it suits Govt/Think Tank/Business interests as you well know. So...thought this was an interesting read with more detail if you or anyone else is interested.

It may be too long a snip of a long article and I will edit if it's a problem. It's seemed that longer snips of articles are allowed in a REPLY in thread but against copyright in the OP.
==========

Kiev detains Berkut officers in murky ‘Maidan snipers’ probe
Published time: April 03, 2014 09:00

Ukrainian prosecutors have detained several Berkut riot police officers, saying they may be behind the mass killings by unidentified snipers in Kiev on February 20. The new twist adds further mystery to the politically-loaded investigation.

The detainees belonged to ‘Berkut black company’, acting Prosecutor General Oleg Makhnitsky told journalists on Thursday.

The General Prosecutor’s office explained that unlike regular Berkut troops, which went unarmed to the confrontation with anti-government protesters, the special operations unit was issued with sniper rifles to provide cover for their Berkut comrades.

“Their task was, as they explained, although we don’t fully believe them, to shoot back at advancing protesters and allow the regular Berkut troops retreat,” acting Deputy Prosecutor General Aleksey Baganets said.

A total of 12 officers were detained in the investigation, including the commander of the unit. The alleged involvement of other Ukrainian police and security units in the mass killings is still under investigation.

February 20 was the bloodiest day of the anti-government protest in Ukraine, which saw President Viktor Yanukovich ousted. According to the Ukrainian Health Ministry, 42 people were killed on that day, almost half of the total death toll in the three-month confrontation.

Protesters and police officers alike were among killed and injured by sniper fire, with a strong suspicion that both sides were shot at by the same snipers with the goal of inciting more violence.

Berkut troops, who bore the brunt of protester violence during the Ukrainian crisis, have been blamed by Maidan activists of police brutality and other crimes. In several incidents protesters captured, humiliated and beat up Berkut officers. Following the February armed coup, the riot police units were disbanded, with troops partially reenlisting into other units and partially resigning.

MORE DETAILS of the Conflicting Reports on the whole incident at:

http://rt.com/news/berkut-snipers-detained-ukraine-037/

[The Magistrate]

5. The Article Closes With The Usual "Protesters Shot Themselves, We Didn't' Tripe, Ma'am

I find it impossible to respect people who credit that kind of 'blackwhite' stuff.

I have heard it trotted out literally for decades, and can count on one hand with fingers to spare the number of times it has proved out.

[KoKo]

7. I think the article points out a more complicated scenario than

your conclusion...but, whatever.

[The Magistrate]

10. And I Think Those Complications Are Needless, Ma'am, And More In the Nature Of Obfuscations

Riot police used extraordinary violence against the protests, and did so beginning at a time when the protests were peaceable, merely so large as to be disquieting. These violent measures included beatings on the spot, 'disappearances' for more prolonged tortures, soaking people in water in below-zero temperatures, and gun-fire aimed to kill.

Protesters certainly replied with violence once the police campaign of terror commenced. I not only have no objection to this, I applaud it, as evidence of the human spirit. Riot police, along with prison guards, are about my least favorite examples of the human species, and there is very little can be done to one I will consider to be perhaps a bit much.

[OKNancy]

23. Russia today - rt.com is the propaganda arm of the Kremlin

They are obviously going to skew what happened

[KoKo]

68. Just as the BBC and the USA would do in the same circumstances.

It's good to read all sources... sometimes the TRUTH is in the MIDDLE...or for some it's what your ingrained view is. Just saying. We all have our biases...but, being informed to me is reading differing viewpoints and then thinking about it all. In the end perhaps I look for "Confirmation Bias" but often times my point of view is changed by reading diversified sources.

[jakeXT]

9. Well, the interior ministry claims the Right Sector guy shot himself, too

http://www.democraticunderground.com/1014770539

[The Magistrate]

14. I Prefer The Tale He Was Cuffed And Shot On His Knees, Sir

I presume you have no objection to 'right sector' types being taken in hand by whatever means seem appropriate to the police....

[jakeXT]

18. I doubt executions by law enforcement are the way to go

Arresting him and giving him to the Russians could have been a major improvement in relations

[The Magistrate]

22. Has A Certain Old-School Charm, Sir

"I am a man of principles, and chief among them is flexibility."

[Boreal]

40. Right Sector and Svoboda

were the fighters you laud for setting unarmed police on fire. There are also Youtubes of them shooting, so they most definitely were doing that. So, what is it - once they coup was accomplished, thanks to their fierce fighting, you want them arrested or outright murdered without a trial? Are they your heroes who overthrew the elected government or are they fascist dogs who must be put down?

[The Magistrate]

46. So Long As A Policeman Burns In Such A Situation, Sir, I Am Indifferent To How It is Achieved

I do not like riot policemen, and suspect few here do.

I sympathize with you for having placed yourself in a posture from which you must defend vicious police acting for a fascist kleptocrat because you imagine it to be the leftist thing to do since someone is expressing hostility to the United States and you imagine a leftist must always be hostile to the United States, and therefore 'Yay riot police!!!' but would point out you could get yourself out of the ridiculous posture in a moment merely by employment of a little common sense and intelligence.

[CreekDog]

60. well, we have 7 member juries now, fyi.

I was #6.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
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So Long As A Policeman Burns In Such A Situation, Sir, I Am Indifferent To How It is Achieved
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This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster writes that "so longs a policeman burns in such a situation, I am indifferent to how it is achieved". This is not something that a normal rational person writes and it reflects violent behavior that is unbecoming to the spirit of DU. We all disagree on certain subjects but to wish for another human being to be burned just because they are a riot police officer is way over the top.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Apr 4, 2014, 04:30 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Over the top? OK
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Explanation: Don't agree with post as I read it, but don't think it needs to be hidden.
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Juror #4 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: No explanation given
Juror #5 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Violence against police shames DU and is just unacceptable in general.
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Explanation: in the context of the discussion, i'm voting to leave it.
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[CFLDem]

61. Congratulations, DU supports your violence against riot police.

AUTOMATED MESSAGE: Results of your Jury Service
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So Long As A Policeman Burns In Such A Situation, Sir, I Am Indifferent To How It is Achieved
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REASON FOR ALERT

This post is disruptive, hurtful, rude, insensitive, over-the-top, or otherwise inappropriate.

ALERTER'S COMMENTS

This poster writes that "so longs a policeman burns in such a situation, I am indifferent to how it is achieved". This is not something that a normal rational person writes and it reflects violent behavior that is unbecoming to the spirit of DU. We all disagree on certain subjects but to wish for another human being to be burned just because they are a riot police officer is way over the top.

You served on a randomly-selected Jury of DU members which reviewed this post. The review was completed at Fri Apr 4, 2014, 04:30 PM, and the Jury voted 3-4 to LEAVE IT.

Juror #1 voted to HIDE IT
Explanation: Over the top? OK
Juror #2 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
Explanation: Don't agree with post as I read it, but don't think it needs to be hidden.
Juror #3 voted to LEAVE IT ALONE
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Explanation: No explanation given
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Thank you very much for participating in our Jury system, and we hope you will be able to participate again in the future.

I didn't know violence against riot police was so wildly supported by this community.

[CreekDog]

62. as juror #6, my vote to leave doesn't justify or support violence

but what happens when governments fall apart and peaceful demonstrators are shot is not going to be affected by someone offering an opinion on which side's violence is more justified.

[CFLDem]

63. Exactly

Just as long as a policeman burns...

[CreekDog]

65. did i say that? have i ever said that?

pretty bold after the nonsense OP you posted last weekend.

[CFLDem]

66. No but you implicitly support it with your vote.

And secondly, my OP last weekend was an honest inquiry that was unfortunately derailed by the usual suspects.

Oh well... Such is DU3.

[Skip Intro]

69. Some advice:

Don't take that poster seriously, and don't be led or goaded into answering his bizarre accusations. He isn't here to join in sincere discussion, and those who rally around his bs are fewer each day.

Bottom line - just let him go. He's only here to start arguments and disrupt discussions. Imagine a spoiled 10 year old brat at a family gathering, trying hard to ruin everyone's fun, and you'll see what you're dealing with.

[The Magistrate]

64. I Have Great Trust In The Judgement Of This Community, Sir

[NaturalHigh]

67. Seriously? You're fine if "a policeman burns"?

I used to respect you.

[The Magistrate]

70. When Police Engage In Murderous Repression Of Dissent, Sir

People have a right to defend themselves against police violence, and to do so with lethal, even shocking means.

They have this right even if I do not agree with them politically, though if I do not agree with them politically, I will generally prefer to see the police repression succeed.

[saidsimplesimon]

25. KoKo, I agree. This dispute needs an international court of law

without bias to review just the facts; the videos, the facial/retinal identification of those who shot unarmed protesters and police, the chatter on the street. Eye witness accounts are difficult to confirm, thus, I would question their value.

My thoughts are with the people of Ukraine and Crimea. May they be granted their stated reason for protest: a government free of corruption, manipulation by oligarchs, and supported by leaders who are unsoiled by scandal and greed.

[dionysus]

59. still catapulting the propaganda? it's hillarious so many buy RT propaganda hook line and sinker...

[zeemike]

4. I find it hard to understand how the government would benefit

From using snipers to kill the protesters...but we are told that they did it anyway.
You can find no example of where that worked for the government including our own Kent State.
When China crushed it's protestors they did not use snipers but brought in the military and did it the right way.

[The Magistrate]

6. It is A Simple Proposition, Sir: People Are Afraid To Die, Kill Some And They Will Run

Just about all use of violence, particularly violence for some end other than the pure hell of it, is based on this simple calculation. It does not always pay off, but it pays off often enough people are predisposed to rely on it and guide their actions by it.

[zeemike]

11. Can you give me an example of where that worked?

And then there is this leaked phone call...

[The Magistrate]

13. That Telephone Call Is Second-Hand Hearsay, Sir

The person says someone told him it was possible people other than police did the shooting. It would not be considered evidence police did not shoot anywhere except various fever-swamps in which nothing ever is what is plainly evident, but rather always the result of some 'hidden hand' or other....

"It's all lies! Lies against my boys!"

[zeemike]

17. There is nothing plainly evident in any of this...

Except for the false sense of certainty we see that one side it totally right and the other totally wrong.

But you have not presented an example of where that has worked for anyone but the opposition.

[The Magistrate]

19. You Just Keep Telling Yourself That, Sir

"Same thing we do every night, Pinky --- try and take over the world!"

[okaawhatever]

32. Thank you for taking on the Putinistas here on DU. It's not an easy task. nt

[karynnj]

24. it DID work at Kent State -for a while in reducing campus protests

I was at IU at the time, and in campuses across the country the huge peaceful protests that were there for at least the previous two springs, were much smaller. At IU, the university itself was so alarmed that students were afraid to even cross the large meadow where IU had most protests, that they themselves organized a candlelight march just to get kids out of the dorms.

The shootings at Kent State did shock the country - but I don't think they impacted the perception of the the war in either direction. I think it was even lost on most people that the impetus was the invasion of Cambodia - announced by Nixon at a point when many of us had hoped the announced speech would be that we were leaving altogether.

[sufrommich]

26. There were massive protests after Kent State.

The shootings led to protests on college campuses throughout the United States, and a student strike, causing more than 450 campuses across the country to close with both violent and non-violent demonstrations.[9] A common sentiment was expressed by students at New York University with a banner hung out of a window which read, "They Can't Kill Us All."[37] On May 8, eleven people were bayonetted at the University of New Mexico by the New Mexico National Guard in a confrontation with student protesters.[38] Also on May 8, an antiwar protest at New York's Federal Hall held at least partly in reaction to the Kent State killings was met with a counter-rally of pro-Nixon construction workers (organized by Peter J. Brennan, later appointed U.S. Labor Secretary by President Nixon), resulting in the "Hard Hat Riot".
Just five days after the shootings, 100,000 people demonstrated in Washington, D.C., against the war and the killing of unarmed student protesters. Ray Price, Nixon's chief speechwriter from 1969–1974, recalled the Washington demonstrations saying, "The city was an armed camp. The mobs were smashing windows, slashing tires, dragging parked cars into intersections, even throwing bedsprings off overpasses into the traffic down below. This was the quote, student protest. That's not student protest, that's civil war."[9] Not only was Nixon taken to Camp David for two days for his own protection, but Charles Colson (Counsel to President Nixon from 1969 to 1973) stated that the military was called up to protect the administration from the angry students; he recalled that "The 82nd Airborne was in the basement of the executive office building, so I went down just to talk to some of the guys and walk among them, and they're lying on the floor leaning on their packs and their helmets and their cartridge belts and their rifles cocked and you’re thinking, 'This can't be the United States of America. This is not the greatest free democracy in the world. This is a nation at war with itself.'"[9]
Shortly after the shootings took place, the Urban Institute conducted a national study that concluded the Kent State shooting was the single factor causing the only nationwide student strike in U.S. history; over 4 million students protested and over 900 American colleges and universities closed during the student strikes. The Kent State campus remained closed for six weeks.

[Kolesar]

44. Wow. That was informative...eom

[zeemike]

27. And it was also the thing that turned many against Nixon.

And had an important effect on public opinion.
And there were songs written about it...

[bemildred]

45. It all depends on what you want.

Sometimes chaos is the goal, it justifies "restoring order". And if you are the guy who gets to "restore order" then guess what? You are now dictator, for as long as you can hold onto it.

Fearmongering is VERY VERY popular in US politics, no?

Look at Syria? Why does Assad still have support? Why is Assad still there if not for fear of who wants to replace him?

I really don't like to discuss these things, you don't want to give any angry self-important idiots ideas.

However, I can guarantee you that if you show up for political demos, there will be people who will say "Let's attack the cops" and then stand there and watch you do it.

People who try to make you angry or afraid are not your friends.

[zeemike]

47. "People who try to make you angry or afraid are not your friends."

I totally agree with that.

[jakeXT]

8. Yellow armbands ? Why would a sniper use a AK47 ?

Many of the 53 people slain died from clean shots to the head or neck—telltale wounds inflicted by expert marksmen; while others were gunned down at closer quarters by less expert assassins armed with AK-47 assault rifles.

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/03/30/exclusive-photographs-expose-russian-trained-killers-in-kiev.html

[The Magistrate]

12. I Always Find The Idea A Head Shot Shows Expert Marksmanship Amusing, Sir

When there are a lot of people and a lot of bullets, some strike heads or necks or hearts or other places that kill quickly and cleanly. Just like sometimes people make a point of three on the first roll. Sniper is a very over-used term.

[jakeXT]

15. The Right Sector admits to using Saiga, which can have 7.62x39, a SVD used by Berkut has 7.62x54

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saiga_semi-automatic_rifle

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dragunov_SVD

Sniper duels on the Maidan
When Fria Tider asked Skillt about rumors that the Ukrainian opposition itself may have been behind the shootings of protestors on the Maidan, he says that he is aware of them, but puts no stock in them. However, he said he has spoken to two people who sniped at the police on the Maidan Square during the riots. “They used Saiga semi-automatic rifles equipped with telescopic sights, and were positioned on the third floor of the Trade Unions Building on Maidan Square,” Skillt said. ”Their mission was to take out Berkut’s snipers,” he added.

He also told us that he recently ran into a man in an American uniform, carrying an American-made rifle. “It was a bit odd, but it turned out he was Ukrainian,” Skillt said. “He had a modified, short-barrel M-16 with a telescopic sight. We said a quick hello.”

http://www.friatider.se/swede-patrols-ukraines-streets-with-right-wing-paramilitaries

[The Magistrate]

16. Spare Us The Gun Porn, Sir

People shot at police.

Good.

[Sunlei]

21. Putin appointed Yanukovych to a russian gov. position recently. Very clear that embezzler has-

always been Putins' bitch.

[MattSh]

29. And what position might that be?

[okaawhatever]

31. Putin's HBIC. I thought she made that clear. lolz. nt

[MattSh]

28. This reminds me of Chris Christie investigating himself.

What other conclusion would you think they'd arrive at?

[KoKo]

35. Struck me as a bit of that for sure.......

It seems others didn't think so...but...it is ...what it is...

[ozone_man]

48. A coup leader performing the investigation?

That doesn't do much for the credibility of the findings.

[The Magistrate]

50. It Has More Credibility, Sir, Than The Rag-Tag Sources Cited To Claim Police Innocence

And that by a long sight.

[MattSh]

51. Maybe for you it does...

[snappyturtle]

30. I'd like to know how Avakov got the weapons to test. Avakov better

watch his back....the neo-nazis want him for killing one of their own.

[Boreal]

42. Avakov is where he is

because of those neo-nazis, so yeah, he better watch his back. I'm expecting a "night of the long knives" is coming. This is not over.

[joshcryer]

33. Unquestionable to anyone watching the live stream.

Go to the ustream Maidan page, go back to the archive, it's so plainly obvious who the aggressors were.

The after math videos are heavily edited CT.

[go west young man]

36. And what of the BBC's footage above?

Is that heavily edited? It sure seems that they recognize a protester as a sniper in the Hotel Ukraine which protesters occupied. Or has the BBC now become a conspiracy theory site and no one told them?

[The Magistrate]

38. No One Denies There Were Rebels Shooting At Policemen, Sir

What is clearly a fabulist's conceit is the claim that demonstrators were intentionally shot by rebels, and that few if any of those shot in the crowds were shot by police.

[go west young man]

39. Check the BBC footage above..

the shot that hits close to the BBC is on the protest side by the Hotel Ukraine and came from the Hotel window as identified by the BBC themselves. Obviously if they were shooting "just" at the police they wouldn't have shot at a news crew just below themselves. The police were over a mile away in another direction.

[The Magistrate]

49. It Does Not Prove What You Claim, And Imagine, It Does, Sir

In fact, it clearly shows a number of people being shot down by police, people you claim were shot by other rebels, not police, without the slightest evidence for that in the video, and contrary to the statement of the man you wish to be taken as absolutely accurate when he claims to have spotted the person who took a single shot, perhaps from a window, from a window a good ways off, much later. So you start by impeaching your own witness, leaving little for me to do, save note that mistaken impressions of the precise location at which a shot was fired are not uncommon

[go west young man]

52. Actually I never said the police weren't also shooting.

There is plenty of evidence to suggest they were shooting. However, it seems that you choose not to consider that the BBC filmed a protester shooting close to the BBC crew in addition to the police. Do tell, why did this protester shoot down at the BBC party? Was he aiming at the police who were over a mile away or was it just an off shot? You seem a touch hypocritical when the video speaks for itself.

[The Magistrate]

53. The Video, Sir, Does Not Establish What You Claim It Does

It is that simple.

You do not have evidence for the claim you make that many if not most or all protestors were not shot by police, but instead were shot by rightist elements within the protest movement, who were directed by the C.I.A. or other U.S. agency.

[go west young man]

54. Nice straw man....

I never said what you proclaim I said. Way to attempt to confuse the subject rather than address the subject at hand. The evidence is video based in front of your eyes. The BBC reporter is obviously afraid for his life. If you can choose to ignore that then I advise you to check what you are fighting for because it certainly isn't the truth.

[The Magistrate]

55. Chanting 'Straw Man' When Your Argument is Summarized Carries No Weight, Sir

What the video actually shows is police shooting a number of people.

Later, there is one shot which a reporter guesses may have come from a particular location. Given the distance and the stress of the situation, whether his observation of where the shot originated is accurate is open to considerable question. Even were one to treat it as accurate for purposes of argument, it still does not establish that persons who were not police were firing into the crowds and killing a goodly number of people, which is exactlywhat you are claiming.

[go west young man]

56. My post is in direct relation to the timeframe I mentioned.Nothing more.

I never proclaimed the police weren't shooting. I simply point out the sniper that the BBC filmed and the fact he was shooting from the protesters side. However, I should also point out that if one pays attention to the video that the Russians released that I have highlighted in other threads, the shooters window directly correlates to the window that was filming the sniped victims and it also correlates to the trajectory. Something worth noting is that the Russians released the video of the Maidan snipers and the theory that they were in the Hotel Ukraine "before" the BBC released theirs. Thereby lending proof to the theory that they were one and the same sniper. The fact the sniper actually takes a shot at the BBC crew lends credence to this theory. Once again what you choose to believe is evidential is up to you. You haven't in any way however, explained what that sniper was doing shooting towards the BBC crew and haven't provided an educated guess as to what he may have been up to. I however, have just placed the video on the table. Do with it what you will.

As far as "persons" go. One sniper could easily kill all those people in that timeframe. I never mentioned persons. I mentioned one sniper in the Hotel Ukraine. I also love the way you attempt to portray the BBC crew as guessing when they point out the exact window and say they saw him right after the shot. It wasn't a guess. It was 100% accurate in comprehension.

Link to the Russia video that was released prior which includes bullet trajectories.

[The Magistrate]

57. You May Crawfish All You Want, Sir: No One Will Be Impressed, Or Care

The position you are arguing is that the decisive factor in the ouster of Yanukovych was rightist rebels shooting into the crowds of protestors to provoke anger and hate against him and his government, and that this was done at the behest of U.S. agencies, and that this fact is being covered up with a deliberate campaign of lies impugning the police.

People very often get the location from which a gun is fired wrong. Seeing a person after a shot is fired is not conclusive evidence that person fired the shot, and that no matter how convinced the person is they are correct.

[go west young man]

58. Actually I have never written that "this was done at the behest

of US agencies". Once again you attribute words to me which I didn't say. I think the Right Sector did it to draw in the international community. And it worked. Secondly I am a former US marine who has fired many, many weapons. There is no doubt in my mind or in the minds of the BBC crew as to where the shot came from. This is obvious due to the resonating sound the fired shot makes off the adjacent building. It was from that window. Do tell why you are trying so hard to discredit the obvious, Sir.

[The Magistrate]

71. Again, Sir: The Video Is Wholly Insufficient To Support The Claim You Make

It does not establish as even near to certain the location from which the shot was fired, or that the person reportedly seen where the people think the shot came from fired it, or the identity of that person and affiliations.

The claim you make is part of a line, and contributes to that line, and the fact that you make a tactical decision to dis-avow the full extent of that line under pressure does not alter the case: you argue for and support the line that the decisive factor in the the overthrow of Yanukovyk was killing of protestors by other protestors, not the killing of protestors by police, and part and parcel of this line is that the protests themselves were contrived by U.S. agency, and the violent protestors worked at the behest of U.S. agencies in service of Western economic interests.

"On the internet, nobody knows you're a dog."

[go west young man]

72. At this point your posts have become equivalent to Faux news for me...

they are comical entertainment. I love the way you attempt to sound legal while at the same time being nonsensical. "Part of a line, and contributes to that line" taking the cake. Funny stuff. I appreciate the entertainment and morning chuckle. The fact that above you advocate for the burning alive of police officers lends me to think you are simply a petulant young man with very little knowledge in any of this territory which you attempt to sound legally knowledgable in. At this point I find your name quite fitting. Pink Floyd's "Fearless" comes to mind. Enjoy your day. Our circular discussion has come to an end. Unless of course you just want to continue repeating insensible non points. The floor is all yours.

[The Magistrate]

73. Yours Reached That Point Long Ago, Sir

Although perhaps more reminiscent of PrisonPlanet, or Godlike Productions, if one were to be strict about the taxonomy.