Venice votes to split from Italy as 89% of the city's residents opt to form a new independent state

[Catherina]

Source: Daily Mail

- Wealthy residents are opposing high taxes which support poorer south
- Venice gets 21 billion euros less in grants than it gives in taxes per year
- Overwhelming 89 per cent majority voted to break away from Italy
- Activists have been working with SNP and attended rallies in Scotland

By Hannah Roberts In Rome

PUBLISHED: 22:43 GMT,

Venetians have voted overwhelmingly for their own sovereign state in a ‘referendum’ on independence from Italy.

...

The proposed ‘Repubblica Veneta’ would include the five million inhabitants of the Veneto region and could later expand to include parts of Lombardy, Trentino and Friuli-Venezia Giulia.

...

Organisers said that 2.36million, 73 per cent, of those eligible to take part voted in the poll, which is not recognised by the Rome government.

The ballot also appointed a committee of ten who immediately declared independence from Italy. Venice may now start withholding taxes from Rome.

...

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2586531/Venice-votes-split-Italy-89-citys-residents-opt-form-new-independent-state.html

[dotymed]

1. Who woulda thunk...

A Christian nation tired of spending their money helping the poor...
"We should keep those billion$"

[Igel]

13. I could quote lots of people here in their defense.

They have their own problems they should be focusing on. Why worry about those far away when there are local issues that need their attention.

The funds aren't being spent effectively or efficiently. The funds are being spent on the right issues and problems. The funds are being spent using the wrong economic model, one that emphasizes the wrong kind of control or helps the wrong people in the wrong way. There should be local control when the central government doesn't do with your money what you want--"not in my name"!

Self-determination is a fundamental human right. No government should hold a population captive. Territorial integrity is a recent development based on borders established under duress or long ago (and things have changed).

Etc., etc., etc.


I personally think that Venice would do better staying in Italy for all sorts of reasons. But I'm not going to lecture my equals on what their interests should be from my utterly-outside vantage point north of Houston. Don't know the language well enough to easily read it (I'm occupied with my rusty, gappy Ukrainian, which I already think of as the Italian of the Slavic language family because of its geminates) and haven't spent enough time with Italians or "in Italian" to even start to "get inside their mindset."

[bvar22]

32. You say:

"No government should hold a population captive."

What is the minimum amount of people necessary to qualify as a "population"?
If I get together with my neighbor and decide that we don't want to pay taxes,
is that a big enough population to qualify?

Did the Union hold The South "captive" in the 1860s?


This is a complex problem.

[malthaussen]

83. A related question: how far back do we draw the line of "ownership?"

Most real estate on the planet has been conquered and re-conquered repeatedly. By what criteria do we decide which conquest is the "valid" one, especially in areas where the aboriginal population is no longer around to stake a claim?

The answer to both questions is, of course, "whoever we say."

-- Mal

[dotymed]

46. I cannot imagine to know the intricacies involved.

Yes, we ALL need to have a say in how our taxes are spent. We (worldwide) need to UNITE and implement self determination.
Sadly, we aren't there.
It does sound callous that the elites desperately want to stop financing their poor cousins and are willing to divorce themselves completely and begin a new state.
With their assets it seems like they could influence how their tax dollars are spent.
IDK, this is my surface armchair quarterbacking.
There IS a reason that this other population is impoverished. Did the separatists help to put them in that cage and build their fortunes off of them? I know that in Amerika, that IS usually the case, IMO.

[louis-t]

2. Give the wealthiest their own state, then

refuse to fix their roads or shovel their snow. They obviously don't want to pay for anything.

[allan01]

11. i was thinking on the same vein :) put in my 2 cents then saw your post :)

[Tippy]

16. Was thinkg the same thing....

[totodeinhere]

19. But it was 89% of all residents, not just the wealthy who voted for secession.

If that's what the people of Venice want, then why not give it to them? It would be no different then the Czech Republic and Slovakia breaking up. And for that matter if a majority of Scots want to secede form the UK let them as well.

[Walk away]

28. 89% of Venice IS the wealthy.

Veneto is the richest area in Italy and Venice is the wealthiest city.

[elleng]

51. and sinking.

Haven't studied this thoroughly, but how much has been spent by ITALY on helping Venice deal with its water problem? And to what extent would Venice alone be able to address this problem?



http://www.businessinsider.com/venice-sinking-mose-system-italy-2012-4?op=1

[totodeinhere]

58. So what? It used to be an independent city state and it would only be returning to that status.

Why don't the residents of Venice rich or not have the right to self determination?

[Walk away]

66. If it is legal in Italy for Venice to secede on a vote like this then...

there isn't much to do but wave goodbye as it sinks slowly into the East. However, if it isn't legal then they are shit out of luck.

[Ash_F]

87. Because they are rich off the economy of greater Italy.

Gated communities need the hard labor of the masses outside their walls to maintain their lifestyle.

Now they shouldn't pay taxes?

[totodeinhere]

90. If they become an independent state perhaps they wouldn't be able

to use the "the hard labor of the masses outside their walls" anymore.

[Ash_F]

93. I am pretty sure they would reverse 180 degrees if that became a stipulation. /nt

[bvar22]

88. Would you argue that The South should have been allowed to secede from the Union in 1861?

They were once independent colonies too.

[totodeinhere]

91. With the lone exception of Texas the states of the Confederacy were never independent

sovereign states as Venice was. Before they became a part of the Union they were British colonies. They were not independent countries.

[rpannier]

54. It would be no different than the confederacy seceding from the USA

Same logic

[totodeinhere]

57. No it would be somewhat different since Venice used to be a sovereign independent

city state and it would only be returning to that previous status. On the other hand, the Confederacy hadn't existed previously as an independent state.

[rpannier]

64. Texas

Won Independence in 1836, joined the US in 1845

[sabbat hunter]

65. all of italy used to be

small city states or kingdoms. Should they all be able to split back up in to those places, like the kingdom of Naples, the Kingdom of the two sicilies. Hell why not bring back the Papal States?

[totodeinhere]

67. That would be up to the people of that area. Look at what happened in the Balkans.

The people of that region decided to split up. If Italians wanted to do the same who are we to tell them not to?

[JackRiddler]

94. Venice is trying to impose slavery on the rest of

Europe?

Such things one learns.

[muriel_volestrangler]

60. 89% of those voting, not of residents

The population of the region is 4.87 million, of which 92% are Italian (ie 4.48 million). The article says 2.36 million voted - 73% of those eligible (so 3.23 million were eligible; that's 72% of the Italian population, which seems surprisingly low for a country with quite an old population).

It does have differences from other situations: it cuts off Friuli–Venezia Giulia by land. They want to do it because they think their taxes are paying for other Italians; they haven't been that obvious a separate region, unlike Scotland.

[totodeinhere]

61. A 72% turnout is much better than what we get in most elections

in this country. I realize that this was not a legally binding plebiscite, but if we disavowed elections because not everybody participated then no election would be valid except those in North Korea.

[totodeinhere]

59. Venice has very few roads. Its transportation system consists mainly of canals.

And while it can snow in Venice it's very rare and usually there isn't enough snow to be shoveled.

[Democracyinkind]

70. The proposed "State of Veneto" would encompass way more than just the city.

Basically, almost all of NE Italy minus the chunk bordering Slowenia/Austria.

[happyslug]

96. But most people of Venice live on land with roads

Mestre,....ice) has actually around 90.000 inhabitants and the whole Venetian mainland (boroughs of Mestre-Carpenedo, Marghera, Chirignago-Zelarino and Favaro Veneto) has actually around 170.000 inhabitants. For a comparison, there are just around 60.000 inhabitants in the historic center of Venice (San Marco, Castello, Cannaregio, San Polo, Dorsoduro, Santa Croce) and just around 30.000 in the major islands of the lagoon of Venice (Lido, Pellestrina, Murano, Burano, Mazzorbo, Torcello), making a total of around 90.000 inhabitants of Venice living in the part based on islands, compared to the circa 170.000 inhabitants in the mainland.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mestre

Map of Venice, both the two traditional areas of Venice and the Four areas located on firm ground:



Venice itself is in an even larger region:




Worse, the major Port of the area is Trieste, which Italy shares with Slovenian:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Free_Territory_of_Trieste

I first learn of this when reading one of my Grandfather's geography books, printed in the 1920s or 1930s. Von Loom's Geography I beleive wast the book. It was a sarcastic view of Geography and history. For example, he blamed pigs for WWI and said it would start another war very soon. Why Pigs. It seems Serbia had one export produce prior to WWI, pigs. The problem was HOW to ship them out of Serbia. The Adriatic coast of most of what use to be called Yugoslavia had no large natural ports between Trieste and Thessaloniki (in western Greece). Thus Serbia wanted Trieste so it could ship its pigs out and thus went to war in WWI to win that port. In the Subsequent Peace Treaty Serbia was included (and the dominate country) in what was called Yugoslavia, but the border ended just before Triestre and thus another war was coming for Serbia still had no place to ship its pigs out from.

Now, that coast has several small ports, good enough for international trade, but such facts would interfere with the author's semi serious joke about pigs causing WWI, so he ignored them.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mediterranean_port_cities_and_towns_in_Croatia


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category ort_cities_and_towns_of_the_Adriatic_Sea

On the other hand, these were small ports and still are small ports. Some are as big as Venice, but none as big as Triestre.

Please note, Von Loon died in 1944, and technically was unmarried at that time (He had divorced his second and third wivies, but then after divorcing his third wife moved back in with his second wife, through no new marriage took place):
http://www.gutenberg.org/browse/authors/v#a392

Thus the 50 year rule on copyright applies from 1944, through if I remember right it had some illustrations and if true, those illustration would also be subject to a 50 year from the death of the illustrator and thus still be in copyright.

I first ran across this problem with Copyright when I purchased "Velveteen Rabbit" for my niece in the mid 1990s.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Velveteen_Rabbit

The author died in 1944, the illustrator in 1949, thus by the mid 1990s the writing was out of copyright, but not the illustrations. The book was reprinted without the original illustrations, then with the original illustrations, as the one without the illustration sold quite well and then people wanted the original.

Just a comment on copyrights, sometime long copyrights can interfere with obtaining texts, long out of print but still in copyright.

[pscot]

3. Onward, to the 14th century.

[Democracyinkind]

4. This is a "private plebiscite", not legally binding.

They will use the turnout/vote to try to force the italian parliament to give them a real vote on secession.

The article fails to even mention that.

The people talking about "being an independent country now" are just the usual right wing hot-heads of LEGA nord.

[Catherina]

8. Thanks n/t

[Igel]

12. Knowledge-base updated. Tx. n/t

[totodeinhere]

21. If it's "just the usual right wing hot-heads" how did they get 89% of the vote?

Surely 89% of all residents are not just the usual right wing hot-heads.

[Democracyinkind]

22. I said those who are talking about "now being a seperate country" are such. nt

[Walk away]

30. Have you ever been to Colorado Springs?

Surely at least 89% of the residents are right wing hot heads. Sometimes birds of a feather flock together. Especially the very rich.

[AnalystInParadise]

78. Seeing as how PBO

received nearly 40% of the vote in Colorado Springs (El Paso county) you are way off, so please take your region bashing somewhere else. As a Texan I am sensitive to it when people talk out of their ass about people in a region of the country. El Paso county is the one you want for proof of your incorrect assumption.

http://elections.huffingtonpost.com/2012/results/colorado

[muriel_volestrangler]

39. An online plebiscite, at that

Over two million residents of the Veneto region took part in the week-long survey, with 89 percent voting in favour of independence from Italy.

The online vote, organised by local independence parties, is not legally binding but aims to galvanise support for a bill calling for a referendum.

Twitter lit up with excited separatists sparring with disparaging Italians from other regions who described the poll as "total madness".
...
The poll on plebiscito.eu asked inhabitants of historic cities such as Treviso, Vicenza and Verona whether -- if the new republic was created -- they would want to keep the euro and belong to the European Union and NATO.

http://www.google.com/hostednews/afp/article/ALeqM5hHyJwo7UyBMmCcWF8bwCbZGnQPYA?docId=2ac11e0d-b23a-4c51-9252-1866cacaf359

How were the credentials of people signing in to vote checked? A vote organised by the pro-independence parties does not sound secure.

[Democracyinkind]

40. Credentials based on official italian ID / passport.

There were <100 voting stations where people lacking an internet connection resp. the necessary knowledge where helped. I don't remember the exact number but am positive that it was a double-digit number.

[Ken Burch]

49. If it was online, the actual result was probably like this:

Yes to Venetian independence-89%
More "Grumpy Cat"-11%

[dipsydoodle]

103. Not legally binding but does at least represent a guide figure.

The problem they may experience with secession would be with regard to thinking they would remain part of the EU.

Both Italy and Spain would likely block a membership application one "no" being sufficient - Spain would vote no due to similar issues in Catalonia.

Scotland would have a similar problem if they did decide to split from the UK - not that the UK itself would be likely to block an application.

[christx30]

5. I'm getting out the popcorn.

This should be good.

[LuvNewcastle]

6. I wonder if they'll bring back the Doges.

It seems like secession is in the air all over the world. Some people think that we're moving toward a world government, but I think the trend is in the opposite direction. Are we seeing the beginning of the end of the nation-state?

[Fortinbras Armstrong]

84. The last member of the Manin family, who were the final dynasty of Doges

Was Louis Leonardo Manin, who died childless in 1950.

The last actual Doge, Ludovico Manin, abdicated in 1797, when Napoleon conquered Venice. Napoleon annexed it to Austria. After the French were kicked out, some people offered to reinstate Ludovico as Doge if he would lead an insurrection against the Austrians, and he turned them down in no uncertain terms.

In 1866, following the Third Italian War of Independence, Venice, along with the rest of the Veneto, became part of the newly created Kingdom of Italy.

[Maedhros]

101. You rang?

https://i.chzbgr.com/maxW500/7894072832/hAFED0C29/

[frazzled]

7. Oh great, what next ...

an Italian civil war?

One way to clear this up really fast is for artists of the world to join together and refuse to participate in the next Venice Biennale, and the world's filmmakers refuse to submit their films to the Venice Film Festival.

These are huge, huge international attractions, and a giant part of the Venetian economy and world-presence. Without them, they'll come crawling back to the Italian state post haste.

[brooklynite]

18. ...and why would the artists care about this?

[frazzled]

24. In general, contemporary artists are a politically engaged group

If there is a true secession of Venice, and it becomes a hot political item because of its association with unwillingness to support poorer areas of the country, it could become a rallying point--a protest, a performance, an alternative engagement. Plus, the artists at the Biennial's various state pavilions are representatives of their countries, chosen by the state. If the rest of Europe or other world countries wished to boycott, there would be no shows in the pavilions.

[PeoViejo]

38. Breaking:

Venice votes to restore its Navy to its former glory. New fleet of Triremes planned. Looking for slaves to man the Oars.

[frazzled]

41. I was kind of thinking a Papal interdict

Or maybe a takeover by the French or Austrians.

[XemaSab]

9. How much of their proposed "state" is sinking into the ocean?

They're going to be wealthy climate refugees.

[LuvNewcastle]

14. I thought about that too. Venice might not be there in another 100 years,

a lot of it, at least. What will they do when all those people abandon Venice?

[MADem]

15. The problem is corruption and skimming. The money is not being spent in the south to "help the

poor." It's going to the mafia in Sicilia, and the camorra in Napoli. It's going to the politicians in Roma.

It's all about a shitty, corrupt government over there. If the money was properly spent, Italy could be a PARADISE. It should be way better than it is.

[LuvNewcastle]

25. I think that's true of most of the world's governments.

Corruption is rampant all over the world, and it is making our lives a lot more difficult than they have to be. A lot of people could be fed, clothed, housed, and educated if it weren't for all of the corruption. I think corruption is the USA's biggest problem, too. People give up on governments that hurt people more than they help them.

[MADem]

29. I think it's worse in Italy than, say, France.

I had a landlord who was so wired into the camorra it wasn't funny. He wasn't a "thug," but he was most certainly a "businessman who was part of the network." On the plus (and selfish) side, the neighborhood was safe (no thanks to the police) but on the minus side, the corruption was pervasive and the skimming was beyond the pale. Some of the insane, shitty construction that happened in Napoli and environs was a consequence of pure bribery and greed--nasty, substandard crap.

[LuvNewcastle]

35. Yeah, I've heard a lot of stories about Italy.

Their government might be the worst in Europe, as far as corruption goes. It would be nearly impossible to significantly change the system over there since the corruption is so ingrained, and if they did change things, it would be one of the most significant events in their history because it's been going on for so long. People can't shake their history and culture without a drastic upheaval.

[MADem]

36. Get rid of the mafia, and you get rid of a LOT of the corruption.

They do have some remarkably brave prosecutors, but a lot of 'em get killed.

[JustAnotherGen]

31. Don't forget

Ndrengheta in Calabria!

[MADem]

33. Giusto! nt

[Tx4obama]

45. And 'Sacra Corona Unita' in Pulgia. n/t

[MADem]

53. Indeed--every region has their warlords! nt

[Fumesucker]

81. If the money was properly spent, America could be a PARADISE. It should be way better than it is.

[MADem]

89. I lived in Italy for many years. Their corruption is far more "local" than ours is.

And it is pervasive as well.

"Oversight" is just a rare bird. It is a problem all the way down to the neighborhood level. You can't understand it unless you've lived it.

But hey, trying to say "America SUCKS TOO!!!" no matter what the topic is ... well ... expected, I suppose.

[George II]

20. Can we get a similar vote in Texas?

[JimDandy]

37. Lots of Republicans in Texas want that.

Why do you?

[George II]

52. "Why do you?" - huh? Something behind that question?

[JimDandy]

75. You made the assertion. I simply asked why you

want Texas to secede and you haven't answered.

[mackerel]

23. this is singing and I'm sure they're going to want to do

everything they can to help their own area from having further water erosion.

[hollysmom]

26. thatais what I was thinking, willthey have enough money to pay for the saving of the city?

or maybe they feel not enough is being spent to save the city.

[Helen Borg]

27. I'm sure they'll want plenty

of Rome's money, then the water starts submerging the city in the near future. In addition, they get plenty of Rome's money to maintain the city, for example. Clowns.

[Brother Buzz]

34. Conch Republic stands in solidarity with Venice

[progree]

42. Venice is about 0.45 degrees NORTH of Minneapolis!

Just learned that a few days ago. One can Google: "latitude of Venice, italy"
or whatever city.

Venice:........ 45.44 deg N.
Minneapolis: 44.98 deg N.

I know it has nothing to do with the topic but it blew my mind, to realize a Mediterranean Sea city (if you count the Adriatic Sea as part of the Mediterranean which I think geographers do) is further north than Polar Vortex Hell (I'm from Minneapolis)

[shenmue]

43. So, are they going to have a doge again?

That'll look cool on teevee, a guy dressed in a Renaissance-era hat.

[Ken Burch]

47. And when do they bring back the court intrigue and poisonings?

BTW...any comment from Shylock yet?

[lobodons]

44. Hmm. Something the Blue States should think about.

Considering the Red State South is a sucking trough of Northern Blue State's taxes.

http://taxprof.typepad.com/taxprof_blog/2004/09/red_states_feed.html

[former9thward]

71. Should we start with D.C. first?

It seems it is at the top of the list.

[Chan790]

74. Actually, DC governance is self-sufficient.

Worse, DC pays its own bills and Congress still has the authority to tell them how. What other US city can Congress tell which private contractor they can hire to collect trash or who they can buy road-salt from?

A few years ago, DC funded needle exchanges and Congress decided to bar them from paying their employees out of DC's own tax-revenue until they rescinded the needle exchange funding.

[former9thward]

85. And there are similar arguments that can be on behalf of the states.

The federal government owns and controls much of the land of the Western states. There is an enormous cost attributed to the states because of that. So by that logic D.C. should be first.

[Swede Atlanta]

48. I think a full separation from Italy is unwise.

My understanding of the Scotland movement is to be a totally separate country, i.e. Scotland, but still be a member of the Commonwealth with the Monarch (currently QEII) as head of state. They are already anticipating how to split the budget, taxes, etc. It will not be easy but it will be done. One good reason for Scotland to separate is the North Sea oil will be Scottish assets.

But Venice and even some of the adjacent areas are, in my opinion, too small to be a nation. The costs of administration alone will now be born entirely by the residents of Venice.

This doesn't include the issues with EU membership. These nations will not automatically be members of the EU. They will have to go through the same application and admission process as any other country. What will they use for currency in the interim? I have heard conflicting stories as to whether England will let Scotland continue to use the Pound or not. Membership in the EuroZone to use the Euro is complicated as well.

I hope we don't start seeing provinces all over Europe start breaking away. It took centuries for the European nation-states to form and Italy/Germany were some of the last.

[Ken Burch]

50. Odd that SNP would work with them, given the economic royalist aspect of this campaign

The main reason support for Scottish independence has grown is long-term Scots opposition to Toryism-Thatcherism-the motivations for the Venetian campaign seem to be essentially Thatcherite by comparison(nobody would really think that not spending money helping southern Italy will make life better for the tiny number of poor people in Venice...and almost no Venetians would care).

It's really disturbing if the SNP simply wants to break up all of Europe into tiny enclaves...that seems like a future that could only be reactionary and bigoted. A Europe of "city/states" CAN'T be a people's Europe.

[Bluenorthwest]

69. I'm always dubious of that which is reported in the Daily Fail

It's a right wing tabloid.

[Ken Burch]

72. I'm aware of that.

I wonder if they'll start depicting Alex Salmond as the Doge of Holyrood?

[MisterP]

55. and Venice, Catalonia, and (long shot) Scotland will all join Russia?

or will the Council of Ten return?

[Ken Burch]

77. Well, Russia and Scotland do have the same patron saint...St. Andrew.

There are, of course, some differences of religious doctrine and practice to be negotiated...and kilts would pose a serious frostbite risk in Moscow in January...but stranger things have happened.



(anyone know if vodka goes well with haggis?)

[KamaAina]

100. Or single-malt whisky with borscht?

[AngryAmish]

56. Can I run for Doge?

[ancianita]

62. This has to get complicated, unless deals have been worked out with EU neighbors, because

sovereign statehood really depends on international recognition by the community of sovereign states.

How that's going to happen doesn't look easy, at this point.

[dreamstst]

63. In. Their. Dreams.

[Bluenorthwest]

68. Daily Mail reports Venice wants to leave Italy....

American Version: Fox News reports Beverly Hills seeks independence from US, citing tax burdens on the wealthy.

[adieu]

73. Venice is sinking

without probably tons of money and international help, Venice may not be around in its current configuration in about 50 years. So yeah, go ahead an isolate yourself from the rest of your country.

I don't know why anyone thinks this is a great idea. Independence is the surest way to poverty and failure. Be dependent on others, and let others be dependent on you.

[ucrdem]

79. "Venice may now start withholding taxes from Rome. "

Good grief. First Greece, now Italy too?

[jberryhill]

80. Blindly following their preconceptions

[Psephos]

92. Like everyone else on Planet Earth. n/t

[jberryhill]

98. The Venetians are known for being blind

[dipsydoodle]

82. map of veneto region of italy

[octoberlib]

86. More from NBC

The Veneto is the former heartland of the powerful maritime Republic of Venice, the economic and trading power that lasted from the 7th to the 18th century. Today it’s Italy’s richest region, thanks to the wealth created by yearlong tourism and a strong industrial base.



But ever since Veneto became part of Italy in 1866, resentment towards Rome has been growing steadily. Many in the region feel their wealth is unfairly squandered by the inefficient central government and that it is used to bankroll the poorer south. The referendum’s organizers say it’s time to cut the cord.

“Since Veneto was annexed to Italy in the 19th century we have never felt fully Italian, as we have our own culture and traditions,” Gianluca Busato, a leader of the referendum push, told NBC.

“But the main reason behind our need for independence is socio-economic. Each year we pay Italy almost $100 billion in taxes, but $30 billion of it never makes it back in the form of services to the region. The government squanders our money! We are better off taking care of ourselves.”

http://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/arrivederci-rome-venice-votes-independence-referendum-n56996

[JackRiddler]

95. Will they offer to finance a fifth crusade?

[happyslug]

97. The "Fifth" Crusade was Centures ago

At the time no one numbered them, that is a modern invention.

If you want information of the Fifth Crusade:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fifth_Crusade

When, numbered, there are either 7, 8 or 9 crusades. The reason behind the difference is the leader of the Fifth Crusades, actually tried it twice. Some historians call both attempts the fifth Crusades, but other historians call the first one is the fifth and the next one is the sixth.

The same with the last crusade, it is also two attempts. The first attempt is counted as the 7th, if the crusades stated by the leaders of the 5th Crusades are considered to have had just one crusade. It is the 8th Crusade, if you considered the two attempts by the people who did the fifth crusade, having done TWO crusades (#5 and #6). Furthermore, the second attempt by the last crusades, is the 9th crusades, if the 5th crusade is counted as two and the 8th crusades is counted as a separate crusade.

The problem is NO ONE counted the crusades at the time they did them (and if they did now do you count the Fourth Crusades, the only Crusade CONDEMNED by the pope?, is is a true Crusade and thus counted, or a fake crusades and should not be counted?).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crusades

[JackRiddler]

99. Okay, thanks. The Fourth Crusade is totally real.

I don't really care how the present-day successor to the criminal authority in Rome currently counts the Crusades, which is "real" and which is false. The "Fourth" (as counted retroactively) turned easily into the most honest one. All were equally criminal and contemptible ventures organized by false nobility recruiting among the naive and sociopathic elements of Europe the cannon fodder for their wars of plunder against a superior civilization. But the Fourth was too deliciously obvious in exposing the entire venture, wasn't it? So now the Vatican condemns it -- very funny. This only serves to highlight their culpability for the whole series of crimes.

[Beacool]

102. Garibaldi must be spinning in his grave.