Autopsy: UIW student shot in the back

[Judi Lynn]

Source: Houston Chronicle

Autopsy: UIW student shot in the back
By John Tedesco | March 20, 2014 | Updated: March 20, 2014 4:44pm

SAN ANTONIO — University of the Incarnate Word student Cameron Redus was shot five times — including once in the back — during a fatal altercation with a campus police officer last year, according to an autopsy report released Thursday by the Bexar County Medical Examiner's office.

A toxicology test also showed Redus had a blood alcohol content of .155, nearly twice the legal limit to drive, when authorities say he fought UIW officer Christopher Carter on Dec. 6 in the parking lot of Redus' off-campus apartment complex near Incarnate Word.

The death of Redus, a 23-year-old star student at the Catholic university, sparked student outrage and garnered national media attention. Carter is currently on administrative leave as the Alamo Heights Police Department and Texas Rangers investigate.

Authorities have released a copy of the autopsy report to Redus' family members, who were stunned by the finding that a bullet struck him in the back.

“We're reeling from the revelations,” said Mark Hall, a friend and spokesman for the Redus family.


Read more: http://www.chron.com/news/local/article/Autopsy-UIW-student-shot-in-the-back-5335693.php?cmpid=hpbn#photo-6018411

[TexasTowelie]

1. Thanks for the update.

Here is the post that I made back in December when the shooting occurred:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/107813777

It's sad that this incident is drawing attention to UIW. I went to their campus a couple times for basketball games and the university deserves more recognition for its programs including the beginning of a medical school on campus.

[pragmatic_dem]

2. Cops in Texas are killers. They will shoot you dead before breaking a fingernail or losing face. nt

[TexasTowelie]

3. Let's see, the suspect was drunk at nearly twice the legal limit to drive, resisted arrest,

assaulted the police officer with the police baton that he snatched from the officer, tried to run from the cop and then turned to charge the cop.

I'm not a fan of police officers, but if the cop let the suspect elude arrest there is no telling what else the suspect may have done including killing other innocent people in the vehicle he was driving. There appear to be sufficient reasons for the suspect to be arrested and because he was uncooperative with authorities he ended up paying the ultimate price--the loss of his life.

Considering the events that occurred, I doubt that I would have behaved any differently than the cop. As far as the shot in the back is concerned, I'm wondering if the suspect was trying some type of martial arts maneuver to spin and kick the cop.

The loss of any life is tragic, but the suspect brought this on himself due to his actions. It's truly sad for his family and friends. However, if the suspect had injured or taken the life of my family or friends and I knew later that the police let this guy continue driving drunk then I'd be enraged at the police officer for not enforcing the law.

[olddad56]

4. and, of course, lethal force was the cops only real option.

[pragmatic_dem]

6. I see, he was so drunk that the cop had to kill him? Should we just shoot anyone who is drunk?

Your apology for the cop is sickening. In fact, if you are not the cop, it is dishonest to apologize for his actions by exclaiming you would do the same.

Or are you suggesting that this cop, like yourself, is clearly untrained in handling public disturbance, untrained on proper use of lethal force, untrained in deadly pursuits, and untrained in conflict resolution and law enforcement.

If so, then I agree - you probably would do the same thing as this cop and kill a kid dead, shooting him in the back because he was "drunk".

Let's see, he had him off the street, had his car, and his identification, the boy was drunk, and this nitwit of an officer could not let it go. Having the upper hand, wasn't good enough, he was gonna bag himself a drunken kid.

The boy put up a fight, and rather than realizing he had all the evidence he needed to issue a warrant, the cop engaged in deadly pursuit and shot him dead. Because the drunk resisted arrest. Authority freaks, hate non-compliance.

But what you are really saying that a gun is all the training you need, so you would do the same, you both would kill him. Issue a drunk kid a series of robotic commands, and when they don't comply, shoot them dead.

But the truth is quite obvious, this was a typical cop, give em a gun and tell them to use it to save face. You know, stand your ground.

Cops are becoming a cowardly public safety menace.

[TexasTowelie]

8. No, I actually believe it was a matter of self-defense.

Last edited Fri Mar 21, 2014, 12:10 PM - Edit history (1)

The suspect had already attacked the policeman with a weapon (the baton) and was charging the cop.

Yes, I am untrained but if I had been in a similar situation I probably would have reacted in the same manner. I know because I've had my own brother nearly try to to kill me twice within the past year and I had to do whatever I could to protect myself. Considering that the incident occurred at 2 a.m. in the dark, the suspect charged the officer with his arms raised with the intention of attacking the cop, and that San Antonio has a reputation for knife carrying gangs, I can't blame the cop. Do you think that the cop knew the suspect was an honor student based upon what occurred when he was stopped?

I'm sorry that you don't understand, but I suspect that you haven't been in a situation where you had to do everything within your power to protect yourself. The suspect may have been an honor student, but he was clearly intoxicated and made poor decisions because of his lack of judgment. It's tragic, but calling me a cop-apologist is comparable to me calling you a cop-hater. You need to take that trash elsewhere.

BTW, I read both online articles and I didn't see any indication that the suspect provided an ID or that the cop had knowledge that he lived in that apartment complex so the suspect was still capable of fleeing the scene. Where did you find that information that the cop knew anything about the suspect other than he was probably intoxicated?

[FiveGoodMen]

10. How can you shoot someone in the back in self defense?

[TexasTowelie]

12. There were five shots fired,

there is nothing that says that the shot that hit him in the back was the first shot fired. The suspect could have spun around after being hit by one of the earlier bullets. The officer had a six-shooter and discharged all of the bullets within a few seconds which really isn't that unexpected in that situation.

This isn't a kid that was shot, it was a 23 year-old man. He made the following mistakes: 1) Getting intoxicated. 2) Driving while intoxicated. 3) Resisting arrest when the officer tried to handcuff him. 4) Attacking the officer with the police baton. 5) Running from the scene. 6) Failing to follow orders from a LEO. 7) Charging the LEO in a threatening manner after refusing to follow a direct order.

The peace officer gave the suspect many opportunities to avoid what happened and the suspect did not try to diffuse the situation.

I'm not a fan of law enforcement officers since I've been arrested myself, but I'm alive today because I didn't do anything as stupid as this young man. I also lived in San Antonio about a mile away from where the suspect was shot and I know that it is not a safe area since I've been on the UIW campus a couple of times.

I'm sorry, but the peace officer has a right to defend himself when threatened. The facts are that one of the bullets missed the suspect, four of the shots were in close proximity and the fifth shot somehow hit the suspect in the back (probably because he spun when hit by one of the earlier shots). All of this happened within a few seconds after a six minute altercation.

If you were the peace officer in that situation what would you have done? Would you have let the suspect who already attacked you continue to charge at you and assault you again? It doesn't matter if the suspect weighed less than the peace officer, I've known plenty of scrappy young men that are quite capable of causing harm to older, less agile and heavier men. This is not the same situation as the George Zimmerman/Trayvon Martin case. This was a licensed peace officer who was fulfilling his duty.

The fact is that the headline of the suspect being shot in the back is what is grabbing everyone's attention like he was murdered in cold blood without any justification. The suspect's actions indicate that there was a sufficient reason for the peace officer to react in the manner that he did.

I am sorry for the loss of a life and the impact that it had on his family and friends, but the reality of the situation is that the man is 100% responsible for this incident and if he had surrendered then the worst thing that the young man would have faced is a day in jail, suspension of his drivers license, probation, community service and a fine.

What I'm surprised about is the number of people on DU that appear to be cop haters. Maybe those people would feel more comfortable if they were on Anarchists Underground instead? (and you can alert on me if you desire) I would be the first person to come down on law enforcement if they reacted in an inappropriate manner (and I was the first person to report on this story a few months ago--see the link in an earlier post I made). However, now that some details emerged it doesn't look like this a "cop gone wild" case like everybody is rushing to believe.

The parents will probably file a civil lawsuit to obtain a settlement for the death of their son, but unless there is some other information that hasn't been mentioned there isn't a chance in hell that a Bexar County jury will decide in their favor since the jury pool will most likely consist of a majority of Hispanics for two reasons: 1) UIW is a Catholic university in a predominately Catholic city. 2) The jury will attribute the suspect's actions to "affluenza". 3) There is sufficient justification to view the actions of the officer as self-defense in light of the suspect already attacking the officer.

[crim son]

15. You realize that you sound quite insane, yes?

The one thing you don't sound, is actually "sorry for the loss of a life and the impact it had on his family and friends." Your comments are appalling.

[TexasTowelie]

16. If you are so offended then you can alert on my post.

Meanwhile, I wonder what your reaction would be if you have already been attacked and someone came back to attack you some more. And actually anybody that would deny that they would take whatever action is necessary to protect themselves is the one that is insane in my opinion.

Read the stories that are posted. The suspect had multiple opportunities to avoid what occurred and he failed to take any steps to do so. That is the definition of insanity. If you read the comments to the newspaper articles, most of them do agree with my position.

The only thing I can infer out of the reactions by most of the comments that I've received is that some of the people on DU think that driving while intoxicated, resisting arrest, evading arrest and assaulting a LEO are just fine and there shouldn't be any consequences. The man belonged in jail and from what I read in the news articles there is nothing to contradict the fact that he was trying to escape the legal consequences of his foolish actions.

Finally, don't tell me what I am thinking because you are full of crap. I do truly regret that this incident happened and that he was killed. Based on the reports, the young man was respected by his neighbors and fellow students so I know that he will be missed by many people. However, he was clearly intoxicated and made multiple decisions that were stupid. He could have mitigated the consequences by surrendering to the officer and he didn't, the suspect made the situation far worse that it had to be.

Quite frankly, I'm beginning to believe that those who are not taking into consideration what the LEO was dealing with during the altercation is appalling. Was the officer supposed to just stand there and let the suspect attack again? Would you have any concern if the officer had been more severely injured or killed by the suspect?

[TexasTowelie]

17. BTW, I think that your judgment about me for having an open mind is also appalling.

Unless you are God and chose "crim son" as a username then who are you to pass judgment on me? Then again, your username may be abbreviated for something else instead.

[pragmatic_dem]

18. You just repeated my main argument, you are untrained and would have done the same thing...

Your implication is that the cop was also untrained. At least on this we agree.

However, the cop is required to be trained. That's why you can't just walk out on a street with a toys-r-us badge and a walmart assault rifle and start patrolling the streets saving humanity against drunk kids, black kids with candy bars, or people playing loud music.

And as far as getting id - "license and registration" the first words out of EVERY cops mouth as well as a radio in of the tags. The vehicle was obviously stopped, the drunk was out of the car, the cop was putting on the cuffs - all without any id or running plates?

Even more incompetence. This is a gross violation of safe practices and now some kid is dead for it.

You want to carry a gun? Then you should have to pay the price when you use it foolishly.

I understand perfectly well what happened here and police abuse is happening in larger and larger numbers as cops shoot first and then authority types apologize for their poor performance later with not even a slap on the wrist.

If you would do the same thing then for the love of god and humanity, don't become a cop.

[TexasTowelie]

19. Don't worry, I never had any desire to become a cop and at this point in my life I couldn't meet the

physical demands of the job.

Remember that we are writing about a campus peace officer. The news article states that UIW does not provide any Tasers for their peace officers and most likely the only weapons that were available were a baton and his gun. Maybe he had pepper spray instead?

My question to you is if the drunk man that has already attacked you and turned back to charge you again, then how would you react to avoid being attacked again? So far, nobody in this thread has provided an alternative as to what the peace officer should have done in this situation. Does he just stand there and wait to be assaulted, hoping and praying that he won't be killed before his backup arrives? Would you be as concerned if the peace officer had been injured or killed by the suspect?

It's easy to pass judgment on the peace officer when the headline is that the student was shot in the back (which could easily be explained if he spun when hit by one of the other bullets). However, neither of us were there, backup had not arrived, and it was a one-on-one confrontation late at night. It was very reasonable for the peace officer to believe that the student was going to attack the peace officer since he already attacked him previously.

So again, please tell me what you actually expected the peace officer to do in this situation because I still haven't read of any alternatives besides letting the suspect flee the scene of the crime and sober up before a breathalyzer test or blood draw? The suspect may be on foot, but he was still capable of causing injury to himself and others in that situation. Furthermore, the peace officer is not permitted to discontinue his pursuit unless he determines that the public at large might be in danger.

I know that this is a Democratic board filled with liberal-minded individuals and I consider myself to be liberal as well, but when you read the comments on the newspaper articles which are more representative of the overall population most of the comments indicate some justification for the actions of the peace officer.

Just imagine how our society would run if criminals knew that they could evade arrest without fear of any consequences? I believe it would be called anarchy (or a plutocracy if they are wealthy).

I'm sorry that the young man messed up because of his impaired judgment and it's said that his life came to such a tragic end. However, I can just as easily reword the third from bottom paragraph to state that if you are impaired and make foolish decisions, then you should have to pay the price. In this case, the suspect did.

[pragmatic_dem]

20. Peace officer, my ass. It takes a lot to make me feel like vomiting...

"Just imagine how our society would run if criminals knew that they could evade arrest without fear of any consequences? I believe it would be called anarchy (or a plutocracy if they are wealthy). "

Congratulations, you did it. Seriously sickening thought process and the first defense of a tyrant.

Given we have the largest prison population in the world per capita by about 2X, hundreds of thousands of lives ruined by an indescribable injustice far in excess of any crime they committed, a violent crime rate on par with 3rd world nation, and a paramilitary police state sucking down tax dollars, I don't think evading arrest is a problem in this country.

Now, let me go vomit in peace.

[TexasTowelie]

23. So I'm a tyrant now?

Be thankful that there are peace officers and other LEOs so that you can vomit in peace.

We obviously have different perspectives on this issue. However, you are the one that points out that our violent crime rate is on par with a third world nation. At least I can envision how much worse that violent crime rate would be if we didn't have some semblance of law and order. If that is what makes me a tyrant, then so be it.

FWIW, I do agree with you about your other points regarding the prison population and the damage inflicted on individuals due to the problems with our criminal justice system. The war on drugs, entrapment and incarcerating innocent people are some of the problems that need to be addressed.

I really wish that everyone would live their lives so that a law enforcement and criminal justice system wasn't necessary, but I also wish that I won the $1 billion bracket for the NCAA basketball playoffs. IOW, there is no chance in hell it will ever happen.

[TexasTowelie]

25. FYI, UIW: Officer who shot student stays for now

SAN ANTONIO — The chancellor of the University of the Incarnate Word said Monday the school will wait for more details about the fatal shooting of student Cameron Redus before deciding whether to fire campus police Officer Christopher Carter.

“We believe that jumping to a judgment before the investigation is complete could unfairly characterize Chris Carter,” Chancellor Denise Doyle said in prepared statement released Monday afternoon.

Doyle said the school administration will “resist the pressure to make decisions or take actions before the investigation is completed.”

The statement was released days after a Bexar County autopsy report was released showing that Carter shot Redus five times — including once in the back — during an altercation at the Treehouse Apartments in Alamo Heights near the campus.

http://www.mysanantonio.com/news/local/article/UIW-Officer-who-shot-student-stays-for-now-5345032.php

[TexasTowelie]

27. You have just accused not only me, but Christians in Texas of being murderers.

Does that make you feel better about yourself?

[pragmatic_dem]

28. no i didn't, but how many times would jesus have shot him? He was murdered. Cop with gun shoots kid

guilty of being young and drunk. That is murder. The cop is a murder and the school is just as guilty for letting a murder on the streets.

Nothing justifies the action of that cop. Nothing.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

29. whats with the dash cam turned off ?

I got the stop resisting 56 times on audio all in six minutes.the turned off dash cam raises a red flag.
Was it inoperable ? Turned off ?

[TexasTowelie]

30. I don't know why the dash cam is off

and it does raise a red flag. It seems odd to only record the audio. Hopefully the investigation will provide some answers.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

32. 9 jobs in 8 years is another red flag ,

looks like he's having difficulty finding his place. That and the other is the question ,where exactly did the campus cop pick up on the student? Ok' so red flags. He called for back-up ,so he fallowed procedure ,I wouldn't label him the executioner because clearly the situation escalated at a very fast pace.

I see the student was a news anchor at the campus television station UIWTV. Red flag there.
And, his blood alcohol level at almost twice the legal limit, ='s suspension.Those are rules at the catholic run schools.When you go to school there, you sign an agreement with them, and you abide by those rules or severe consequences. Driving drunk or being drunk on or off campus is unacceptable by their rules. He would not have been handed his diploma this year and he knew what was at stake.

Just my thoughts on that aspect in it. And I know those rules at those catholic schools /universities. Good education yes it is, but those rules are strict and enforced .
Turn it around comes to mind, turn into big big campus news.

Now no doubt the students at UIWTV knew something about the cop's spotted work history,
no doubt it was scuttlebutt. And no doubt the cops interaction's with students on campus are and have been carefully looked at ,to my knowledge or as I understand it the Texas Rangers
are abut as thorough as it gets.

Sadly, I suspect the student thought the dash can was on and he most likely hoped enough noise was made through the ruckus to attract onlookers, witness's and actually that didn't happen. The witness who heard what was going on didn't look out the window or go outside to see what it was all about,cell phone and camera in hand. And when he heard shots,well, he hid in a closet.

However I do suspect the cop knew exactly who he was trailing in pursuit. Sadly again, he wasn't out in the field or jungle as some cops put it, he was a university campus cop, which is actually a good job . Sure he fallowed procedure, as a trained licensed cop in the state of Texas. Maybe he see's himself as more of cop's cop.
He just isn't cop enough to handle the situation until backup arrived. A campus cop is still cop,but the campus isn't the jungle. Happens to be why it is a very good job.

And at the same time the student was caught between a rock and a hard spot. Driving drunk .

This is sad, very sad.

Looks like it's heading to the grand jury. A university education at those catholic run schools is costly,and you fallow the rules,- or you don't graduate-it is just that way.

I think I may have covered why it is going to the grand jury.

I didn't see if the cop was officially on or off duty.Any info. about that ?

On edit, Do you think it is possible the student thought the cop was acting outside his legal authority ? Did the student perhaps think he was being stalked and could he have been ill informed as to the cop's legal authority to stop him for a moving violation ,administer a breath test, if he did that and make a formal arrest as a licensed LEO in the state of Texas off campus ? Just a thought.

[TexasTowelie]

33. It's possible that the student may have thought the cop was acting outside his authority or his

jurisdiction, but I believe the first news story that is tied into the link on post #1 states that the peace officer can initiate traffic chases of DWI suspects off campus and that he actually possesses the authority to make those arrests anywhere inside the county.

It is a sad story though since the student had so many opportunities to avoid the tragic outcome. He may have been suspended from the university for a DWI, but at least he would still be alive.

However, I can't label the cop as an executioner either when he repeated his commands numerous times and warned that he was going to shoot if the suspect didn't follow his orders. I doubt that the cop knew he was a student and if he had the student's drivers license it probably did not show the address of the student at the apartment complex since it is much more likely that it had his permanent residence (parent's address) instead. Even if it had the apartment address on the drivers license, the peace officer may had not associated that address with the apartment complex where the suspect lived.

People can question the training of the peace officer all that they wish, but in circumstances such as those described I believe that the basic survival instinct can override that training. The earliest article (found in connection to the link in post #1) mentioned that UIW officers do not carry Tasers, but there is no other mention of whether they have pepper spray or stun guns and even if they had it isn't likely that the peace officer would have had the time to retrieve those items to defend himself.

[Wash. state Desk Jet]

34. I don't believe the officers actions in pursuit are a question as he is a licensed

LEO in the state of Texas. An off duty officer of the law in a bank there to make a transaction same as anybody else is obligated to act or respond in an official capacity to the extent of putting his or her life on the line to protect the innocent in the event of a robbery in progress or any any kind violation for that matter. This as a matter of law is not a question here.

I wonder if the campus cop knew full well who he was in pursuit of when he gave chase. I wonder about that because the student was a known UIWTV news personality. And I should think to wonder if that in fact has something to do with why it is the dash cam was turned off.
There is no question as to why he was pulled over. The student may have figured once he pulled off the road into his apartment building complex parking lot, he was home free and in a position to tell a campus cop to get back on campus and do yer job instead of stalking me.
He may have thought the cop had no legal right to pull him over or assign tickets off campus. That is what I meant by ill- informed. Did the students truck have a university parking permit somewhere in plain view ? Usually on the rear window.

I mean, the student assaulted a cop, that is a serious offense in and of itself. In fact that assault on a law enforcement officer is what turned the incident into a tragedy.

However given the red flags raised on both sides in it, I do suspect there is more to this case than meets the eye of the public. When the student went for the baton ,bamping stick whatever you want to call it, sheesh, that's the suicide by cop thing. OK so, the kid was drunk.

The dash cam having been turned off ,or not having been turned on -that red flag raises questions.
From where I sit it is not about assignment of blame here, this case needs to be looked at.
There is an air of suspicion surrounding this case, but why the tragedy went down the way it did is not questionable. The dash cam having not been on is.And that red flag leads to more questions.

[valerief]

7. Why don't cops just shoot people in the leg if they're going to shoot at all?

I don't get the killing thing. Do they do that because they're bad shots or just like killing people?

[jsr]

9. Because it's cheaper to call a coroner than an ambulance?

Officers strive to save taxpayers money.

[One_Life_To_Give]

11. Hitting a moving person at 15ft is tough enough

Only in the movies are Sheriffs able to shoot the bad guy in the leg. Look at Watertown, 200 rounds fired by the cops at the Tsarnev brothers. Yet a cop had to tackle one and the other ran a mile away.

[valerief]

14. Why would the cop have to be 15 feet away to shoot him in the leg? nt

[One_Life_To_Give]

31. Humans can move at 25ft per second

Giving the officer slightly more than half a second when the person is within "combat range". Also during that 15 ft the persons legs will take from 5 to 7 steps. So it cycles up and down every 0.2 seconds or so. How superhuman do you think the cop is to focus and fire on a leg moving like that? Hitting a stationary target is easy. Hitting a person moving at full speed and not wanting to be hit is much more difficult. The leg may only be in line with the barrel/aim point for 0.1 sec.

[markpkessinger]

21. Cops are trained to shoot to kill when they shoot . . .

. . . The idea that they can shoot someone in the leg, at will, is something that occurs in movies, not in real life.

[24601]

24. Police are trained to shoot center of mass, specifically because with Circular Error Probable (CEP)

a center shot has the most distance to cover before it's a miss. Specialized hostage rescue snipers with a steady hold, scope and often the choice of timing the shot might be able to wait for a head shot. Center of mass will often kill, but is most likely shot to ensure a physical knock-down to stop forward progress. Hand, Foot, arm, leg or shoulder doesn't stop someone like a center of mass shot.

Center of mass isn't a moral decision - it a tactical one. It's why police spend hours on the range - so that the shot is muscle memory.

[ManiacJoe]

22. Shooting to wound is immoral, illegal, and difficult to do.

Why don't cops just shoot people in the leg if they're going to shoot at all?
I don't get the killing thing. Do they do that because they're bad shots or just like killing people?

Legs and arms are small targets, easy to miss. Cops are poorly trained marksmen.

If you are not shooting "to stop", you do not fear for your life. If you do not fear for your life, you are not allowed to use lethal force against your attacker.

[tabasco]

13. This criminal gang known as "the police"

is out of control.