Texas man allegedly killed soldier for not believing in God

[queerart]

Source: The Raw Story

Can being an atheist in America get you killed? If police in the small Texas town of Petrolia are to be believed, the answer to that question is yes.

Officials in Clay County, Texas revealed this week that human remains uncovered near the Oklahoma border last month were those of Spc. Jose Ramirez, an El Centro, California native who went missing from Fort Sill, Oklahoma more than seven years ago. A former friend of Ramirez’s, 30-year-old Justin Green, was charged with the murder in February.

Read more: http://www.rawstory.com/rs/2012/03/15/texas-man-allegedly-killed-soldier-for-not-believing-in-god/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+TheRawStory+%28The+Raw+Story%29

[RufusTFirefly]

1. And now to make matters worse the guy's going to Hell. That oughta learn him. n/t

[freshwest]

2. Yeah, the 'believer' is definitely out of fire insurance on that one.

[GodlessBiker]

3. No, but don't you see? All he has to do is confess and ask forgiveness and he'll be fine.

That's the beauty of their cockamamie system.

[atreides1]

4. But

The standard is to be sincere when you ask for forgiveness!

[Mariana]

23. I'm sure he sincerely doesn't want to go to hell.

That's probably enough motivation for him to be sincerely sorry for what he did.

[KansDem]

35. I never understood it myself

Murder someone on Saturday night, go to church Sunday morning and confess to some pedophile priest and your spot in God's Kingdom is assured.

Hard to believe...

[southernyankeebelle]

5. Well he may get gods forgiveness who knows. However the bible also says "an eye for an eye"

[Vincardog]

11. The "eye for an eye" was a call for restraint.

[southernyankeebelle]

16. well we see how that worked.

[Art_from_Ark]

25. "Eye for an eye" was Old Testament

The New Testament says "Turn the other cheek"

[southernyankeebelle]

26. Well I just remembered that. To be honest I don't think growing up in the catholic

church we studied the bible. At least not in debt that I remember.

[Art_from_Ark]

27. Growing up as more or less a Methodist,

church services focused almost exclusively on the New Testament, with occasional references to the Old Testament books of Psalms and Proverbs, and Isaiah during Christmas. At a young age, I was a little disappointed because the Old Testament seemed to have more interesting stories

[southernyankeebelle]

28. I agree about the old Testament. But I just don't remember doing a lot of that.

I guess we consider our church yours, Lutherans, Episcopal church all mainstream and we don't ride the crazy train. Of course holy ricky to me is more of an evangelica then a catholic. You know they do alot of bible stuff. Of course they read what they want to see in it. I guess that is why we didn't do that so much.

[Art_from_Ark]

29. I went to a Pentecostal church camp when I was 11

I was invited to it by a classmate. I must say, it was quite... different... than what I was used to. And I'll admit, I was kind of excited because they talked a lot about Old Testament stuff, and Revelations. As soon as I got home, I told my mom all about it, and announced that I was going back next year. The look on her face said "Uh, huh, sure you are".

[southernyankeebelle]

32. You didn't go back right? I hoped you listened to your momma after all momma knows best, LOL

[Art_from_Ark]

34. By the next year, that camp was just a distant memory

Although I did kind of miss the Kickapoo Joy Juice

[southernyankeebelle]

36. That is how they sucked you in with that Kickapoo Juice, LOL.

[Art_from_Ark]

37. I've got that Kickapoo Joy Juice down in my heart

Down in my heart
Down in my heart
I've got that Kickapoo Joy Juice down in my heart
Down in my heart
To stay

[southernyankeebelle]

39. Your a riot LOL. I guess it really sticks with you. Hahahaha

[LuvNewcastle]

6. I Googled "kill unbeliever," and here's what I found:

Deuteronomy 7:2 And when the LORD thy God shall deliver them before thee; thou shalt smite them, and utterly destroy them; thou shalt make no covenant with them, nor shew mercy unto them:

[SemperEadem]

8. but check it out:

if you're a christian, it's the new testament you're supposed to follow: and Jesus never said anything about killing anyone who didn't believe. He just said to love one another.

[LuvNewcastle]

9. I wish more Christians talked about the teachings of Jesus.

When they're trying to get you to do what they want you to do, they usually break out the OT or St. Paul.

[SemperEadem]

10. those are Paulists, and not Christians

they worship St. Paul.

As far as I'm concerned, the only thing I need to pay attention to in the new testament is the stuff in red ink. And that's all talk about loving one another, taking care of the poor, feeding the hungry--you know, all those things Paulists hate that they have to do.

[eomer]

22. Isn't it more like Paul was a Christian while Jesus was not?

Jesus taught the things you say, plus some other things, and they didn't include Jesus himself being Christ (the Messiah).

Paul, on the other hand, taught more than anything else that Jesus was Christ and that believing that Jesus was Christ was the most important thing.

So it is Paul who was a Christian and one of the principal founders of the Christian religion. Jesus was a Jewish Apocalypticist.

Also, I would say that you need to filter even the things that are in red. Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John comprise several different sources that tell the story very differently, with lots of contradictions between them. Somewhere in there is the best source of what Jesus taught, but not all of it is what Jesus taught - lots of it came from later Christians who were "improving" on the story. For example, the early oral traditions (sources of the Gospels) that probably reflect what Jesus really taught apparently said that the Son of Man was coming during the lifetime of the generation that lived while Jesus lived. The later writings in the Gospels had to change that part since the original teaching did not come to pass.

I've just finished reading three of Bart Ehrman's books (Forged, Misquoting Jesus, and Jesus, Interrupted), so the above is my paraphrase of some things Ehrman says. Hopefully I got it mostly right but would welcome helpful corrections if not.

[classof56]

41. You might want to read Ehrman's book God's Problem

It recounts his journey from fundamentalist Christian to pretty much not believing in God. When I read Misquoting Jesus, I, a long-time fundamentalist Christian, found it a real eye-opener regarding how the New Testament as we know it came to be. Paul believed without question that Jesus was going to return soon to take his own to be with him, which is one of the reasons, I believe, that Paul was so adamant about the way early Christians ought to conduct their lives. His writings reflect how downright angry it made him, watching all that sin continuing on amongst the believers. I'll give it to Paul, though, as well as the apostles and others who were martyred for their faith. They were willing to die for the Christ they accepted as Saviour and whose gospel they preached. Lately, I find too many mainstream fundamentalist, evangelical, prosperity gospel types who in my opinion are weighed in the balances and found wanting. Of course, it's up to God, whose attributes are omnipresent, omniscient and omnipotent, to deal with these folks who claim to follow him. These days, I find myself wishing he'd be quicker about it before they do any more damage.

In other words--you got it right, what Ehrman said in his books. God's Problem with its painful message really got to me. Not sure I completely agree with his conclusion, but his words are more than thought-provoking.

[LiberalLovinLug]

20. Christians putting Christ first??? Are you smoking crack?

Aren't you aware aware of the "new" American Christian? The last thing you want to be accused of is actually following Christ's teachings of "turn the other cheek" or "love thy enemies" or "do unto others.." and certainly stay clear of regarding Him as the "Prince of Peace". He told Dubya to go to war after all (and presumably forgave him in advance for lying in order to make it happen). Also forget the whole rich man having trouble entering heaven as much as a camel going through a needle hole. The new interpretation is that the richer you are the more it means God likes you. Get with the program!

[atreides1]

14. If what you say is true

Then why have both the Old and New Testaments always been in the same Bible? And how come many of the books written by Paul are included in the New Testament?

[LuvNewcastle]

19. Christianity was originally a Jewish sect,

hence the inclusion of the Hebrew scriptures. Much of the NT was written by Paul. The men who chose which books would make up the NT were obviously fond of his writings, although some of those attributed to him are thought to be by different authors.

[eomer]

30. Matthew says to follow Jewish law, Paul says not to follow Jewish law.

Jesus was a Jewish Rabbi teaching Jewish law. Paul specifically says that Gentiles should not follow Jewish law, that to do so would be to deny the basics of Christianity that place all the importance on believing in Christ.

It's all very contradictory, and that's just in the most important books of the New Testament.

[provis99]

31. it's all made up bullshit anyways.

Read comics instead of the Bible. Let Superman be your messiah!

[eomer]

33. It is all made up anyways - just look at all the contradictions in the New Testament.

And also the fact that many of those contradictions came about by Christians over the course of the first three centuries CE "improving" the story in order to bolster their case.

And even if you strip away those contradictions, throw away the improvements that were made up to bolster the case, and attempt to go back to the original teachings of Jesus then:

1. What you're left with isn't Christianity but rather a version of Jewish Apocalypticism.
   
2. Those teachings of Jesus were proved false during the first century CE when Jesus' prophesy of the coming didn't come. He taught that the coming of the Son of Man, the apocalypse, during which those who had followed Jewish law and had done good deeds to help those in need around them would be made in charge and the rich and powerful who had done the opposite would be stripped of their wealth and power, would occur during the lifetime of some of those to whom he spoke. That didn't happen. The coming didn't come.

And so I don't believe any of it (I'm an atheist). But I do agree with Jesus about how we should live our lives - that we should live according to the Golden Rule and treat others around us with love and compassion and try to help them. Jesus was obviously mistaken about why we should do that, since the coming didn't occur. But I still believe in living that way, not because there's something in it for me (wealth and power brought to me by the apocalypse), but rather because I believe in being "good for nothing" - doing it for its own sake and because it itself is a better way to live rather than for something I'll get it in return.

[Major Nikon]

44. That's not exactly true

Jesus said on many occassions that the laws of the Hebrew bible must be followed. Even to the extent that disobedient children should be killed.

And Jesus did have something to say about killing non-believers.

Luke 19:27:

"But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me."

[LanternWaste]

42. the primary reason why it becomes invalid to apply the Laws en toto the mankind as a whole...

Leviticus and Deuteronomy were both written specifically by the Levites. Of the twelve original Judaic tribes, the Levites were given the priestly role which was concomitantly tasked with codifying Judaic and Priestly Law. In both books, the Levites are writing to three distinct audiences-- the other Levites, the Judaic tribe as a whole, and finally the gentiles.

It becomes incumbent upon the reader then, to make sure which of the three audiences the Levites are writing to in regards to any particular code of ethics or law. E.g., most of the dress codes are written for the Levites alone, the dietary restrictions are written only for the Judaic tribe as a whole, etc.

This is the primary reason why it becomes invalid to apply the Laws en toto the mankind as a whole. Much as the laws of one state are not only irrelevant, but invalidated when in another state, we cannot apply all state laws to all states, and must determine which laws are federal, which are state, which are local, etc.

Hope this tidbit helps in any future analysis of yours...

[The Doctor.]

7. And they keep telling us it's the atheists we should be afraid of.

Theists are in a constant state of hypocrisy.

[slackmaster]

40. No, it's violent psychopaths that we should be wary of

HTH

[sarcasmo]

43. +1

[pacalo]

12. He & his Christian family could have taught him so much if they had chosen that route...

The police report claims that Green, his sister Brittany and her friend Stephanie Heaston-Corral allegedly worked together to hide the body and clean up the residency at the prompting of Green’s mother, Terri.

After burying the body, police claim the group all went to Brittany’s apartment and ordered a pizza and bread sticks with Ramirez’s credit card, and Brittany allegedly signed it using Ramirez’s last name.

Or maybe not.

[LongTomH]

13. When did they come up with that "killed for not believing in God" story?

Is it an attempt to gain sympathy from a small town Texas jury? If they actually killed this kid for being an atheist, that's creepy. If Texas juries would actually let someone off or give them a light sentence for killing an atheist, that's damned terrifying!

[atreides1]

15. Would it surprise you?

If the jury did find him not guilty?

[davidthegnome]

18. In Texas?

Not really.

[sakabatou]

17. Even if they don't agree with the whole "not believing in God" angle

At the very least, they could get second-degree murder.

[Ecumenist]

21. Horrific!! I'm a believer BUT I believe that to each, their own. I cannot imagine killing

someone because they don't believe. What kind of "ish" is that? AND HIS mother coordinated covering up this hate crime with his siblings taking part? WTF??!! This should be a first degree muirder with a hate crime enhancement...PERIOD. Oh and BTW, where does using your victim's credit card and forging his name AFTER MURDERING HIM come into being a Christian? How does that work?

[bloomington-lib]

24. Why did it take so long?

It happened in 07 and they just now getting arrested. They used his credit card multiple times right after the murder. Didn't they investigate the missing soldier at all?

[newspeak]

38. sure, he was killed because he didn't believe in their god

besides murdering this poor man, they also stole from him. Thieves and murderers, that makes them good christians? How heartless can you be to bury the body and then spend multiple times on his credit card?