Ukraine: Gunmen seize Crimea government buildings

[Recursion]

Source: BBC

The Russian flag had been raised over both buildings in the capital, Simferopol.

The local government has said it is negotiating with the gunmen.

...

Ukrainian Interior Minister Arsen Avakov said the area near the government buildings has been cordoned off to prevent "bloodshed". He added that the seizure of the buildings was the work of "provocateurs".

"Measures have been taken to counter extremist actions and not allow the situation to escalate into an armed confrontation in the centre of the city," he said in a statement on his Facebook page.

Read more: http://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-26364891

[joshcryer]

1. Secession can only be a bloody affair.

Too many ethnic Ukrainians and Tartars. This is probably a balloon trial to see if Russia reacts appropriately to the pro-Russia nationalists.

[Recursion]

2. Or agents provocateurs from one of any number of groups...

That said, if Russia ends up establishing a protectorate in the Crimea, they're basically giving up on getting support from Ukraine as a whole...

[joshcryer]

4. Fair enough.

Hopefully Russia considers the possibility of agents provocateurs before making a move.

[dipsydoodle]

5. Not quite sure that follows

As far as I'm aware Russia imports agricultural products from the west of Ukraine so I wouldn't see all support ending. The pattern I would consider to be likely would be Crimea becoming separate later to be joined by adjacent areas. Projected costs of Ukraine joining the Europe in effect would have no bearing on such areas who could even adopt the Ruble.

[cosmicone]

3. A prelude to Russian troops moving in

to ensure stability.

Ukraine will have to be split to satisfy everyone. This will create the Western part of Ukraine joining the EU and it will be the mother of all Greeces in terms of liabilities.

[dipsydoodle]

6. mother of all Greeces in terms of liabilities

i.e. almost wholly foreign owned.

[dipsydoodle]

7. Ukraine warns Russia against 'aggression' in Crimea

Ukrainian interim President Olexander Turchynov has warned Russia against any "military aggression" in Crimea.

He said Russia's troops from Russia's Black Sea Fleet should not move outside their naval base in Sebastopol.

The warning comes after armed men seized Crimea's regional parliament and the government headquarters of the Russian-majority region.

The Russian flag had been raised over both buildings in Simferopol. It is not clear who the men are.

"I would like to call on the leadership of the Russian Federation to respect the basic agreements on the Russian military presence in the Autonomous Republic of Crimea," Mr Turchynov.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26366700

[cosmicone]

8. "Don't you attack me" says a rabbit to the wolf. n/t

[pampango]

13. I don't think the wolf is too worried about the rabbit's protestations or fighting ability.

All governments seem to be protective of their own country's territorial integrity but the principle's importance decreases when the conversation switches to the territorial integrity of some other country, not your own.

I doubt that Russia really wants to establish a precedent that ethnic majorities in certain regions take precedence over national sovereignty.

[another_liberal]

9. A few more details . . .

Local ethnic Russian ‘self-defense squads’ have taken control of and raised Russian flags over the buildings of the Crimean parliament and government in the region’s capital, Simferopol. Ukraine's autonomous region is divided over the acceptance of new authorities in Kiev. Thousands gathered in front of the parliament building on Wednesday with crowds split between those supporting the new government and those calling for integration with Russia. Two people died and over 30 were injured in clashes.

At around 4am local time, an unknown group of people barricaded themselves inside the buildings. According to local officials, those people might have been armed. The men wore black and orange ribbons, a Russian symbol of the victory in World War II, according to AP. They placed a Russian flag on top of the Council of Ministers.

Journalists who in the morning tried to approach the parliament building had a stun grenade fired at them. RT’s video agency Ruptly filmed the incident.

(snip)

Included is video of a grenade attack on reporters trying to approach the Crimea's Parliament building.

The country’s police and Interior Ministry troops have been on alert in connection with the situation in Crimea, Arsen Avakov, Ukraine’s acting interior minister said on his Facebook page. Avakov said the areas around the seized buildings have been cordoned off by police to prevent civilian casualties. Law enforcement authorities are stationed next to the Council of Ministers, with officers banning people from approaching the building, Interfax-Ukraine reported, citing the press service of the Crimean parliament.

The buildings are reportedly occupied by ‘self-defense squads’ of 50 Russian-speaking locals each. They allowed those who were inside at the moment of seizure to leave. They later let inside the seized parliament around 15 Crimean MPs, including the speaker Vladimir Konstantinov. They are holding a session the agenda of which is not yet clear.

(snip)

http://rt.com/news/crimea-parliament-building-capture-987/

[T_i_B]

10. All very worrying....

[another_liberal]

11. Yes, I have to agree.

There may be debate about the validity of this government or that government, but Ukraine should remain one country. This occupation of government buildings in Crimea's capital by a violent minority is just as wrong, just as undemocratic as what another violent minority did last week in Kiev (at least it is so in my opinion).

[T_i_B]

12. Wondering if the UN could have a role to play here?

Partition for Ukraine, or worse still annexation of the Crimea by Russia is not an attractive prospect.

[TBF]

14. I don't know that rule by fascists

is any more attractive.

"The nationalist Svoboda party traces its roots to a Nazi-allied partisan army during World War II and was known as the Social-National Party—in reference to National Socialism—until 2004. Last month the party held a torch-lit march in honor of Stepan Bandera—a controversial figure viewed by some as a Nazi collaborator. " http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2014/02/20/russia_says_the_ukrainian_protesters_are_fascists_and_nazis_are_they.html?wpisrc=burger_bar

Personally I'm not a fan of Putin however. Rock and a hard place - I wonder how the everyday folks on the street in various parts of Ukraine are feeling about these 2 "choices".

In the end I believe there will be a split.

[another_liberal]

17. My earlier reply was inaccurate . . .

The article I linked to concerned actions by the leader of "Right Sector," yet another of the more violent elements currently active in Ukraine. They are, if anything, even more fascistic than "Svoboda."

[pampango]

20. Svoboda does not run the government. Ukrainains need to keep them marginalized but the far-right is

weaker in Ukraine than in many liberal Western European countries.

The students were the first to protest against the regime of President Viktor Yanukovych on the Maidan, the central square in Kiev, last November. These were the Ukrainians with the most to lose, the young people who unreflectively thought of themselves as Europeans and who wished for themselves a life, and a Ukrainian homeland, that were European. Many of them were politically on the left, some of them radically so. After years of negotiation and months of promises, their government, under President Yanukovych, had at the last moment failed to sign a major trade agreement with the European Union.

After weeks of responding peacefully to arrests and beatings by the riot police, many Ukrainians had had enough. A fraction of the protesters, some but by no means all representatives of the political right and far right, decided to take the fight to the police. Among them were members of the far-right party Svoboda and a new conglomeration of nationalists who call themselves the Right Sector (Pravyi Sektor). Young men, some of them from right-wing groups and others not, tried to take by force the public spaces claimed by the riot police. Young Jewish men formed their own combat group, or sotnia, to take the fight to the authorities.

The Russian media continually make the claim that the Ukrainians who protest are Nazis. Naturally, it is important to be attentive to the far right in Ukrainian politics and history. It is still a serious presence today, although less important than the far right in France, Austria, or the Netherlands. Yet it is the Ukrainian regime rather than its opponents that resorts to anti-Semitism, instructing its riot police that the opposition is led by Jews. In other words, the Ukrainian government is telling itself that its opponents are Jews and us that its opponents are Nazis.

The future of this protest movement will be decided by Ukrainians. And yet it began with the hope that Ukraine could one day join the European Union, an aspiration that for many Ukrainians means something like the rule of law, the absence of fear, the end of corruption, the social welfare state, and free markets without intimidation from syndicates controlled by the president.

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/archives/2014/mar/20/fascism-russia-and-ukraine/

So far of the 19 government ministers appointed yesterday 2 belong to the Svoboda Party, less than the far-right Freedom Party has in the Dutch government. Not many of us call the Dutch government 'fascist'.

Svododa's presidential candidate in 2010 got 1.5% of the popular vote. In the parliamentary election of 2012 the party got 10.8% of the vote. Both those numbers are much less than the French National Front received in the most recent presidential (17.9%) and parliamentary (13.6%) elections.

Ukrianians need to watch their far-right parties, just as the French, Dutch and many other Europeans do. That does not mean that far-right fascists control those countries or are destined to do so.

[another_liberal]

15. Yes, the UN should step in . . .

And President Putin's government should be a sponsor of the UNSC resolution to intervene. If they do otherwise, it would be hypocrisy of the worst kind.

[cosmicone]

18. UN is powerless because Russia will veto any resolution.

NATO is powerless because they wouldn't want a war with Russia over Ukraine.

Ukraine is toast. The EU will get a part that is nothing but liabilities and Russia will get the productive parts. The protesters were stupid and will now be subservient to the EU for their daily bread.

[another_liberal]

19. I hope you are wrong about Russia.

I find it hard to believe they would want a civil war in the region which hosts their very strategically important Black Sea Fleet. Quite a decision they will be having to make, that much is certain.

[pampango]

22. If Russia wants UN approval for an intervention in a foreign country, it would not veto its own

resolution.

Unless you are saying that Russia does not need UN approval to intervene in a foreign country. That would be a new twist in Russia's professed policy on the role of the UN in authorizing or preventing foreign interventions.

[go west young man]

23. The history of Crimea isn't exactly Ukrainian.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crimea

[pampango]

25. Nor is the history of Alaska exactly American.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska#History

[Tommy_Carcetti]

21. The fact that they are demanding allegiance to Russia and not simply secession for East Ukraine....

...is troublesome.

A partition of Ukraine between East and West into to separate independent countries is one thing.

Annexation of Eastern Ukraine by Russia is quite another.

[Xithras]

30. Crimea was actually part of Russia until 1954

Not "foreign territory controlled by Russia", but actually part of Russia proper. It was transferred to Ukraine by the Soviet Union for geographic and administrative reasons.

It's not particularly shocking that, 60 years later as Ukraine swings into solid "anti-Russian" mode, the Russian majority in Crimea would want to rejoin Russia. I'm not sure that it will actually go that far, but if it does it shouldn't be a surprise to anyone.

[Tommy_Carcetti]

36. Actually it was its own SSR

And it was subjected to the same sort of Russification that the Ukrainian SSR was subjected to.

Probably it would make the most sense for Crimea to be its own independent state. Although still a minority, the ethnic Tartars who lived there started to repopulate after the fall of the Soviet Union.

[Xithras]

38. The Tartars are what, 10% of the population?

You're right about the SSR. It was part of Russia during the Russian Empire, but I didn't realize they'd been spun off into their own SSR in 1921.

The fact that the Tartars are such a small minority in Crimea means that there won't be a Tartar state. If Crimea were to secede from Ukraine, it would be politically dominated by its ethnically Russian majority.

Those ethnic Russians would ultimately decide an independent Crimea's fate. The question for them would simply be: "Do the advantages of independence outweigh our ethnic and historical loyalties to Russia?" It will be interesting to see which side they come down on.

[dipsydoodle]

24. UKRAINE CRISIS: Crimean parliament seeks referendum on enhanced powers for province

On BBC news ticker . Buried in here somewhere http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-26366700

[alcibiades_mystery]

26. I believe the technical diplomatic term for this is

"a big shit sandwich."

[BelgianMadCow]

27. Reading the comments at the Guardian article about the same subject is highly enlightening

gunmen occupy government buildings in Kiev = installation of democratic government
gunmen occupy government buildings in Simferopol = gunmen seize buildings

The commenters ridiculed the Guardian's biased headlining.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/27/ukraine-pro-russian-gunmen-seize-crimea-parliament-live-updates#start-of-comments

The lack of similar comments at DU is equally telling.

[Xithras]

29. It's because the movement is more "anti-Putin" than "pro-Ukraine".

The motivations of most of the supporters of the "revolution" are pretty clear. They can't stand Putin and the uprising has stripped him of an ally and reduced his influence. It's not that they particularly care about Ukraine, but it's a "good" revolution because it hurts someone we oppose.

The separatists in Crimea are "bad" because their goals are pro-Russian, and indirectly pro-Putin as a result. Anything that helps Putin is automatically bad.

The well being of the actual people in that country is irrelevant. The only things that matter are our geopolitical goals. If some innocent Ukrainians end up dying so that we can score a political "victory", then so be it.

It's western double standards on full display. We support democracy only when it supports our goals. History will judge us harshly.

[BelgianMadCow]

31. You have spent considerable energy in putting that into words very well.

I think exactly the same. It may have helped that I just read Failed States by Noam Chomsky - which lays out the case against the truthfulness of "spreading democracy and freedom" as the driver of US foreign policy with great historical detail.

But what really gets to the heart of it and me is "The well being of the actual people in that country is irrelevant." The EU pays lip service to democracy, but apparently it's a-ok to throw 40 % of Ukraine under the bus. Does not compute.

[dipsydoodle]

37. Lameness personified

Bit like quips here directed at the Russian media.

[Xithras]

28. Ukraine: Sebastapol installs pro-Russian mayor as seperatism fears grow.

Apparently Sebastapol has been led by a Ukrainian mayor from Kiev. The Sebastapol council stripped him of his powers yesterday and installed a Russian citizen in his place.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/25/ukraine-sevastopol-installs-pro-russian-mayor

[Coyotl]

32. What the Ukrainian Neo-Nazi Right wants is to reconquer Europe.

The Nazis in Russia are a lot better at hiding these attitudes.

[another_liberal]

34. I wish this was a joke . . .

I really hate fascists, no matter who they are.

[Marrah_G]

39. Scary stuff

[another_liberal]

33. The Crimean Parliament has voted to hold a referendum on Independence from Ukraine.

Crimea is going for broke in its opposition to the "illegal government in Kiev."

The Supreme Council of Ukraine’s Autonomous Republic of Crimea has passed a no-confidence motion dismissing the regional government. The local parliament has also voted in favor of holding a referendum to decide the future of Crimea on May 25.

(snip)

The decision to dismiss Crimea’s Council of Ministers was supported by 55 out of 64 Crimean MPs. The no-confidence motion came as a result of “unsatisfactory” work by the regional government in 2013, Interfax-Ukraine reported. The Chairman of the Council of Ministers, Anatoly Mogilyov, was also dismissed. The regional parliament then voted in favor of holding an All-Crimean referendum on the status of the Autonomous Republic, with 61 out of 64 MPs supporting the poll.

On May 25, Crimeans will vote “yes” or “no” on whether the “Autonomous Republic of Crimea has state sovereignty and is a part of Ukraine, in accordance with treaties and agreements.” Earlier the presidium of the Crimean parliament have announced that they are confident "that only by holding an All-Crimean referendum on the issue of improving the status of the Autonomy and expanding its powers Crimeans will be able to determine the future of the Autonomy on their own and without any external pressure.”

As a result of “the unconstitutional seizure of power in Ukraine by radical nationalists supported by armed gangs,” Crimea’s peace and order is “under threat,” said Oksana Korniychuk, the press secretary of the head of the parliament.

(snip)

Read more at: http://rt.com/news/ukraine-crimea-parliament-government-056/

[pampango]

35. I doubt that Russia really wants to establish a precedent that ethnic majorities in certain regions

take precedence over national sovereignty. That could come back to bite them.

If Crimea wants to hold a referendum on independence, let them. I think ethnic Russians make up about 55% of the population with ethnic Ukrainians being about 25% and Tatars at about 15%. It could be a close vote.

For that matter Texas can have a referendum on independence. Republicans suggest that from time to time when other issues aren't stirring their masses up enough. I'm surprised that some of the southern states, all governed by republicans anyway, have not hit on the idea of a referendum for independence from the 'oppressive socialist (or fascist - they can't tell the difference) government in Washington.