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Redfairen

(1,276 posts)
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:49 PM Feb 2014

Detroit pension protesters offer own bankruptcy plan, vow to shut city down

Source: Detroit Free Press

Shouting "No peace -- no justice," leaders of a planned protest this Sunday against the City of Detroit's tentative bankruptcy settlement gathered in a city church today and promised they would "shut the city down."

Leaders said a plan of adjustment announced last week that would slash some city pensions by 34% was unacceptable and racist. They submitted to the bankruptcy judge their own "People's Plan for Restructuring Toward a Sustainable Detroit," a 10-page document showing how Detroit's crisis could be resolved without hurting city retirees and residents, they said.

Short answer: Big banks and bondholders should accept losses, said Cecily McClellan, 61, a Detroiter and city health department retiree. Applauding and shouting approval as McClellan spoke were about three dozen people gathered at Historic King Solomon Baptist Church.



Read more: http://m.freep.com/localnews/article?a=2014302240125&f=1232

35 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Detroit pension protesters offer own bankruptcy plan, vow to shut city down (Original Post) Redfairen Feb 2014 OP
Unfortunately for them, Detroit needs bankers and future bondholders to invest in the city's 24601 Feb 2014 #1
EXACTLY bossy22 Feb 2014 #2
I''m not so sure. Who is a better risk? JDPriestly Feb 2014 #3
Yeah, that has worked so well in the past. bemildred Feb 2014 #6
The money has to come from somewhere hack89 Feb 2014 #9
Actually, no it doesn't. We pretty much just create it out of thin air. bemildred Feb 2014 #10
No we don't - unless you can provide some example hack89 Feb 2014 #14
The Fed, that's exactly what the Fed does. bemildred Feb 2014 #16
So you are talking giving tax payer money to the banks hack89 Feb 2014 #18
Fed money is not taxpayer money, Fed money is brand new money, made from nothing. Fiat money. bemildred Feb 2014 #21
Your grasp of how the Fed works is simplistic to say the least. nt hack89 Feb 2014 #27
But accurate as far as it goes. nt bemildred Feb 2014 #33
Exactly. Thanks for bringing that up. n/t Fantastic Anarchist Feb 2014 #30
My pleasure. There is never a shortage of fiat money. nt bemildred Feb 2014 #31
Or we can just stiff the banks and start over. The banks deserve it. nt bemildred Feb 2014 #11
Start over with what? hack89 Feb 2014 #13
Fuck them, and fuck their credit too. That is how Detroit got in the pickle. nt bemildred Feb 2014 #17
So where does Detroit get the money they need? hack89 Feb 2014 #19
The don't. Simple answer. They default. nt bemildred Feb 2014 #23
How do they get funds in the future? hack89 Feb 2014 #26
Have a nice day. bemildred Feb 2014 #28
You too. nt hack89 Feb 2014 #29
If they default, they are not paying their debts and that means not paying retired city workers. 24601 Feb 2014 #35
Since the city is already effectively shut down, this is a hollow threat Demeter Feb 2014 #4
Why is it the bank's fault? bossy22 Feb 2014 #7
Because they made bad loans. nt bemildred Feb 2014 #12
So Detroit's financial managers were asleep at the switch? hack89 Feb 2014 #20
The banks made bad loans, that is why they are culpable. nt bemildred Feb 2014 #22
The city negotiated and signed those loans. They are culpable too. hack89 Feb 2014 #24
OK, we can hold them accountable too. nt bemildred Feb 2014 #25
The banks committed fraud upon fraud, and then, defaulted on their property taxes Demeter Feb 2014 #34
Regular link alp227 Feb 2014 #5
Here is a link to the plan hack89 Feb 2014 #8
Does anyone have melm00se Feb 2014 #15
30 people are probably not going to shut the city down n/t taught_me_patience Feb 2014 #32

24601

(3,962 posts)
1. Unfortunately for them, Detroit needs bankers and future bondholders to invest in the city's
Mon Feb 24, 2014, 10:57 PM
Feb 2014

recovery. They will look elsewhere if Detroit demonstrates it's bonds are unsafe investments.

bossy22

(3,547 posts)
2. EXACTLY
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 12:59 AM
Feb 2014

I've been trying to explain this very concept to many of my friends. I feel extremely bad for all the pensioners but the fact is the city suffered huge tax base losses over the last 30 years and can no longer support it's obligations. As they say, you can't squeeze blood from a stone. You also can't squeeze money out of someone that doesn't have any.

Also, IIRC the bond holders are taking a significant cut as well.

JDPriestly

(57,936 posts)
3. I''m not so sure. Who is a better risk?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:03 AM
Feb 2014

A debtor who has not declared bankruptcy and has lots of creditors who will precede all new creditors? After all, the money owed to the first source from which the city borrowed will be paid before a Johnny-Come-Lately, I should think.

Or wouldn't you prefer to loan to

A debtor like Detroit who has a steady source of income - tax income - which, although lower than its past income can be used to pay off new debt and who has recently wiped its debts clean in bankruptcy court? I don't know how long it will take for Detroit to be discharged in bankruptcy. But once it has been, I know of no reason to think that it will be a better risk than it is now.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
9. The money has to come from somewhere
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:19 AM
Feb 2014

there is no city in America that does not use bonds to fund capital improvements.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
10. Actually, no it doesn't. We pretty much just create it out of thin air.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:27 AM
Feb 2014

We can make them whole any time we like.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
14. No we don't - unless you can provide some example
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:45 AM
Feb 2014

of how the government created money out of thin air to make a bankrupt city or state whole again.

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
16. The Fed, that's exactly what the Fed does.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:51 AM
Feb 2014

They mark a number down on the debt ledger, and they give that much as a credit to a bank. Absolutely nothing physical involved except some tiny magnetic spots somewhere in some computer system. It's even cheaper than printing. They could do the same for Detroit tomorrow.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
18. So you are talking giving tax payer money to the banks
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:03 AM
Feb 2014

You realize that the Fed does not control currency levels in America by simply creating money out of thin air?


The function of the central bank has grown and today, the Fed primarily manages the growth of bank reserves and money supply in order to allow a stable expansion of the economy. To implement its primary task of controlling money supply, there are three main tools the Fed uses to change bank reserves:

1. A change in reserve requirements
2. A change in the discount rate
3. Open-market operations

A change in reserve ratio is seldom used but is potentially very powerful. The reserve ratio is the percentage of reserves a bank is required to hold against deposits.A decrease in the ratio will allow the bank to lend more, thereby increasing the supply of money. An increase in the ratio will have the opposite effect. (Read more on this subject in Breaking Down The Fed Model.)

The discount rate is the interest rate that the central bank charges commercial banks that need to borrow additional reserves. It is an administered interest rate set by the Fed, not a market rate; therefore, much of its importance stems from the signal the Fed is sending to the financial markets (if it's low, the Fed wants to encourage spending and vice versa). As a result, short-term market interest rates tend to follow its movement. If the Fed wants to give banks more reserves, it can reduce the interest rate that it charges, thereby tempting banks to borrow more. Alternatively, it can soak up reserves by raising its rate and persuading the banks to reduce borrowing.

Open-market operations consist of the buying and selling of government securities by the Fed. If the Fed buys back issued securities (such as Treasury bills) from large banks and securities dealers, it increases the money supply in the hands of the public. Conversely, the money supply decreases when the Fed sells a security. Note that the terms "purchase" and "sell" refer to actions of the Fed, not the public. For example, an open-market purchase means the Fed is buying but the public is selling. Actually, the Fed carries out open-market operations only with the nation's largest securities dealers and banks, and not with the general public. In the case of an open-market purchase of securities by the Fed, it is more realistic for the seller of the securities to receive a check drawn on the Fed itself. When the seller deposits it in his or her bank, the bank is automatically granted an increased reserve balance with the Fed. Thus, the new reserves can be used to support additional loans. Through this process, the money supply increases.


http://www.investopedia.com/articles/08/fight-recession.asp

bemildred

(90,061 posts)
21. Fed money is not taxpayer money, Fed money is brand new money, made from nothing. Fiat money.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:06 AM
Feb 2014

That's why there is a Fed. It was considered too dangerous to allow the government to print money by itself without banks involved. Boy was that a mistake.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
13. Start over with what?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:44 AM
Feb 2014

creditors that stiff lenders don't get credit anymore - not worth the risk. Where is the money going to come from?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
26. How do they get funds in the future?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:13 AM
Feb 2014

how do you think cities fund infrastructure improvements and other capital intensive projects? There is a reason most municipal bonds are tax free - cities and towns are absolutely dependent on them.

24601

(3,962 posts)
35. If they default, they are not paying their debts and that means not paying retired city workers.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 09:09 PM
Feb 2014

The Pension Benefit Guarantee Company isn't covering any of this since it applies to private plans only.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pension_Benefit_Guaranty_Corporation

 

Demeter

(85,373 posts)
4. Since the city is already effectively shut down, this is a hollow threat
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 03:55 AM
Feb 2014

What they need to do is shut down the banks. Since the banks shut them down, it's only fair to turn the tables.

hack89

(39,171 posts)
20. So Detroit's financial managers were asleep at the switch?
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:06 AM
Feb 2014

They were not competent enough to make financially sound decisions?

hack89

(39,171 posts)
24. The city negotiated and signed those loans. They are culpable too.
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 11:11 AM
Feb 2014

we will never get good governance if our leaders are not held responsible for their actions.

melm00se

(4,993 posts)
15. Does anyone have
Tue Feb 25, 2014, 10:49 AM
Feb 2014

a link (a balanced one) that discusses who is giving up what during the bankruptcy proceedings?

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