Report: NSA spied on Merkel’s predecessor too

[jakeXT]

Source: Washington Post

BERLIN — German media are reporting that U.S. intelligence began spying on current Chancellor Angela Merkel’s predecessor in 2002 because of his opposition to the U.S.-led invasion of Iraq.

Previous reports based on documents provided to German media by NSA leaker Edward Snowden indicated that Merkel’s cell phone was targeted. She took office in 2005.

Munich daily Sueddeutsche Zeitung and public broadcaster NDR reported Tuesday that Merkel’s predecessor Gerhard Schroeder was added to the NSA’s National Sigint Requirement List as number 388 in 2002.

Citing unnamed U.S. government officials and “NSA insiders” who were shown the Snowden documents the newspaper says Schroeder’s confrontational stance on Iraq and concerns for the NATO alliance led to the move.

Read more: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/europe/report-nsa-spied-on-merkels-predecessor-too/2014/02/04/cc1bbe8c-8dd7-11e3-99e7-de22c4311986_story.html

[Thinkingabout]

1. Lots of spying going on, NSA spied on Merkel and Her predessor, Snoeden spied on NSA.

We know why NSA spied, why did Snowden spy. We don't what NSA determined but Snowden still has diarrhea of the mouth, useless scumball thief.

[Maedhros]

7. Snowden has been very clear about why he blew the whistle on the NSA.

He observed activities that be believed were unconstitutional.

And far from being useless, Snowden has made American citizens aware of the NSA's abuse of power.

Are you really rocking a Barbara Bush avatar?

[Thinkingabout]

10. Facts are facts, NSA was observing activities, you say Snowden was observing activities,

Snowden's observations and revealing the information is illegal, his giving of information stolen from the NSA does not make Snowden useful, Snowden abused power in which he did not have.

[Maedhros]

11. Is that really Barbara Bush in your avatar?

That's sort of creepy, if true.

[Thinkingabout]

12. Maybe you should ask Snowden, he may be able to tell you.

[Maedhros]

13. Well, I figured since you're the one that put it on your DU profile

you would be a more reliable source.

[Thinkingabout]

14. Your dog doesn't hunt.

[Maedhros]

16. I don't have a dog, although I did when I was younger.

She was a Brittany Spaniel with awesome pedigrees - her mother was a Canadian Grand Champion hunting dog.

But why did you put Barbara Bush as your avatar?

[jakeXT]

17. Ann Richards

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ann_Richards

[Maedhros]

20. Ah. I stand corrected.

Thank you for clearing that up.

[frwrfpos]

28. these people are for real and theyre here and they serve on juries and they use propaganda

what disturbs me more than anything is that this is not only allowed on this site but high fived and encouraged by others.

And evidently nothing is done about this garbage. That is what cements it perfectly cl;ear how infiltrated our party is.

[Maedhros]

30. The tip off: the amount of real, personal vitriol directed at Snowden

or others who question authority, coupled with the avoidance of actually discussing any issues.


It's just "blah, blah, blah, insult, insult, insult. "

[Diclotican]

2. jakeXT

jakeXT

I guess NSA, CIA, and the rest of the intelligence salad soup have been spying on german chancellors all the way back to at least 1947, when CIA first was made into a organisation...

25-30 years ago - most mainstream americans was in anger over the fact, that the Soviets was keeping a tab on millions of people, the same with the satellite states in the Eastern Europe (East European block) who often did the dirty work KGB was not willing to do itself..

Today CIA, NSA and the rest of the alphabet soup - is on the same track as the old KGB - and have tools even KGB was not even near to have in their toolbox, when they was spying on everyone... NSA do spy - and have been doing it all the back to the "good old cold war when the enemy was USSR.

The cold war ended - but the need for a new enemy have never ended - new enemies have to be invented - or created in some cases - and now NSA and the rest of the soup salad is doing their best - to spy on everyone - who "might" be a enemy....

Diclotican

[jakeXT]

3. ECHELON

European Parliament investigation (2000-01)

In July 2000, the Temporary Committee on the ECHELON Interception System was Eestablished by the European parliament to investiage the surveillance network. It was chaired by the Portuguese politician Carlos Coelho, who was in charge of supervising investigations throughout 2000 and 2001.

In May 2001, as the committee finalized its report on the ECHELON system, a delegation travelled to Washington, D.C. to attend meetings with U.S. officials from the following agencies and departments:

U.S. Central Intelligence Agency (CIA)[22]
U.S. Department of Commerce (DOC)[22]
U.S. National Security Agency (NSA)[22]

All meetings were cancelled by the U.S. government and the committee was forced to end its trip prematurely.[22] According to a BBC correspondent in May 2001, "The US Government still refuses to admit that Echelon even exists"[6]

In July 2001, the Temporary Committee on the ECHELON Interception System released its final report, which confirmed the existence of ECHELON.[23]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ECHELON#European_Parliament_investigation_.282000-01.29

[BelgianMadCow]

5. !

tyvm

[Diclotican]

15. jakeXT

jakeXT

I know - it was a lot of fuzz when it was discovered that ECHELON was spying on millions of rather Innocent people - just because it was used to tab into everyones personal communications - and also was used to give US companies unfairly benefits over European companies when business was at hand


I also remember - many who defended the existence of ECHELON and all the activities - specially after 9/11 the whole gang was defending the existence as one of the most important systems to "defend against terrorism" - and that personal freedom - was out of the window... I frequented a forum, who was at the time Norwegians largest forum for debate at the time - sadly after our own july 22, the forum was closed down - and the "owner"of the forum deiced to raze all the information from the hard rives - many ten of thousands of sides of informations from many corners was destroyed - because some at the forum deiced it was not worth it...

Its rather interesting - that a high leveled delegation was canceled and the US government refused to exist that ECHELON existed, even though it was rather proven that ECHELON existed - and had been used to spy on their "allies and friends" - I do remember, even in the early 1990s, when our own intelligence was under fire for spying on legal political activities at the left - that words like ECHELON was used - it was even written a few books about the subjects - I guess I might have one of them somewhere at the attic... But it was not until the early 2000s ECHELON was known for a broader public um, (Yeah, I'm some of a nerd when it comes to this things) and ECHELON got into everyones face....

Diclotican

[George II]

4. So? Bet that Germany is spying on us and has been for decades. What's the big deal?

Incidentally, I thought Snowden wasn't a traitor because he revealed NSA spying on Americans. Now he's revealing US spying on foreign governments. Not a traitor for that??????

[Maedhros]

21. Serious question:

The NSA is tapping Angela Merkel's personal cell phone.

How exactly does this benefit the American people?

[George II]

22. I don't know, if true I haven't seen the transcript. Another question....

If Snowden's motive was to expose the US government spying on and betraying the American people, how does the NSA tapping Merkel's personal cell phone (if true) betray the American people.

Remember, Snowden has repeatedly said that he stole those documents to show how the NSA was violating the Constitution by spying on the AMERICAN people. So how does revealing that the US has been spying on other countries AND revealing that other countries have spied on yet more countries advance the rights of the American people?

[Maedhros]

24. It betrays the American people because it undermines the trust between our government

and that of a very important ally.

Der Spiegel came to the conclusion, based upon evidence provided by Snowden, that the NSA had tapped Merkel's phone:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-nsa-spied-on-merkel-cell-phone-from-berlin-embassy-a-930205.html

Assuming this is correct, and there is compelling reason to do so, how does this benefit the American people?

Follow up question: I presume from your avatar that you are Canadian. Why are you so invested in defending the United State's security state?

[George II]

25. I was born in Brooklyn, lived in NY most of my life. I have Canadian heritage.

[Maedhros]

26. Oh - okay. What about my other question?

Der Spiegel came to the conclusion, based upon evidence provided by Snowden, that the NSA had tapped Merkel's phone:

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/cover-story-how-nsa-spied-on-merkel-cell-phone-from-berlin-embassy-a-930205.html

Assuming this is correct, and there is compelling reason to do so, how does this benefit the American people?

[Titonwan]

31. Don't expect an answer.

It's kill the messenger and to hell with the facts laid out. 'don't be cloudin' my mind with the danged truth'

[Maedhros]

35. Why do they always say "I already answered your question"

when it's obvious to even a casual observer that they did nothing of the kind and are obviously trying to change the subject?

Do they really think people buy it?

[George II]

36. Most people look at the question itself before deciding whether they "buy it" or not.....

......reread your question, which starts with:

"assuming this is correct...."

So you're looking for a definitive answer about something that may or may not be correct. Posing a question like that, you're not going to get a precise answer from me, just one as imprecise as your question.

It's like asking that classic question, "when did you stop beating your wife?"

[Maedhros]

37. You defend the NSA's actions with respect to wiretapping Merkel,

on the assumption that it protects America. I'm just asking you to explain your defense, specifically HOW it protects American citizens.

[George II]

32. I sort of answered it the first time. Not seeing what information obtained (IF it's true)....

...I can't really say.

But the bottom line is good ol' altruistic Snowden was acting to alert the American people about NSA spying ON the American people.

[Maedhros]

34. No you didn't. Nice dodge, though.

You're well-trained.

[marble falls]

6. And Willi Brant wasn't a paid CIA informant? .....

Last edited Tue Feb 4, 2014, 09:23 PM - Edit history (1)

Some CIA assets went on to lead their countries — Vietnamese strongman Ngo Ding Diem, Congolese despot Mobuto Sese Seko and former Chilean President Eduardo Frei. German Chancellor (and Nobel Peace laureate) Willy Brandt and Indian Prime Minister Morarji Desai spent the twilight of their careers having to deny allegations that they had been on the agency's payroll.

http://content.time.com/time/specials/packages/article/0,28804,1933053_1933052_1933042,00.html

Ad some claim he worked for the KGB:

http://mailman.lbo-talk.org/1998/1998-June/002791.html

The Times of London June 16 1998

Defector says Willy Brandt was KGB agent

WILLY BRANDT, the former West German Chancellor, architect of Ostpolitik and symbol of the country's Left, was also a Soviet KGB agent, according to information provided by a Russian defector.

The timing of the accusations is significant, coming in the middle of a general election campaign. Branding the Social Democrats as communist stooges has been part of the conservative election repertoire for five decades.

[jakeXT]

8. Conservatives simply wanted to buy the GDR

A 'Half-Baked' Deal: Former German Chancellor Considered Buying East Germany

Newly released documents from the CIA and State Department suggest that former German Chancellor Ludwig Erhard wanted to purchase German unity from the Soviet Union for around $25 billion. But the Americans didn't take the German leaders suggestion very seriously at the time.

...

There are few documents about this plan in the German national archives. This may in part be a result of the fact that conservative Christian Democrat Erhard avoided expressing his intentions to other politicians and officials. The only person he appears to have mentioned it to was his rival at the time, Willy Brandt of the center-left Social Democrats. In an interview with SPIEGEL published in 1984, Brandt recalled an episode during his term as Berlin's mayor in which Erhard had asked him during a ride in a car how much "it would really cost for Russia to concede the GDR to us?"

...

http://www.spiegel.de/international/germany/a-half-baked-deal-former-german-chancellor-considered-buying-east-germany-a-789811.html

[Diclotican]

18. jakeXT

jakeXT

I think that the idea of outright buy back GDR from the russians - was meant as a serious offer from the side of the Chancellor Ludwig Erhard's - even thought I doubt the leadership of USSR would have given up GDR for even 25 billion dollars - who was a LOT of money back in 1985... Even though I suspect the idea of the unification of the two german states in the mid 1980s would have given most leaders in the USSR a rather painfully feeling where the heart was - mostly because to give up GRD right at the hight at the cold war - was unthingable... This was the generation of russian leaders, who was grown up, or young men when Germany did it best to raze the western part of USSR down to the ground - and killing off 20 million of its people. THAT experience was deep into the core of most russian leaders - who at least would have demanded that if a unification could start - BRD had to leave NATO - and to be a natural state with limited military powers - far less than it was in the 1980s... And that all US forces who at the time was stationed in the BRD - had to leave before the unification of the who german states was even thinkable to start...

And then it was the case with 25 billion dollars - to buy GRD from the russians - somehow I would think that alone would be somewhat of a problem to get the money to buy the eastern part of Germany from the russian power of influence...

Diclotican

[Diclotican]

23. marble falls

marble falls

It have never been proven that Willy Brandt was a spy for the KGB - even if many, even today claim he was a spy - it have never been proven, even after the fall of the Soviet - and the opening of many archives - that Willy Brandt was a spy for the KGB...

But he was a strong symbol for the "new" germany after the war - he was a great symbol for BRD in the days, when West Germany did not had to many friends around the world.. Specially when it came to the border with Poland - the more friendly tones with USSR - and a more understanding from the former enemies in the west...

Mr Brandt was also hated for his friendly tone with the east - and I suspect some of them wanted to brandish him as far to friendly with USSR...

Diclotican

[marble falls]

27. I just added a link.

[24601]

9. OMG! NSA's predecessor organizations spied in Germany's dictator during the early 1940s. The US

has no permanent allies, just permanent interests. The capabilities of other nations and the intentions of their leaders is precisely what our President needs to know.

[jakeXT]

19. Vassals and tributaries

In brief, for the United States, Eurasian geostrategy involves the purposeful management of geostrategically dynamic states and the careful handling of geopolitically catalytic states, in keeping with the twin interests of America in the short-term: preservation of its unique global power and in the long-run transformation of it into increasingly institutionalized global cooperation. To put it in a terminology that hearkens back to the more brutal age of ancient empires, the three grand imperatives of imperial geostrategy are to prevent collusion and maintain security dependence among the vassals, to keep tributaries pliant and protected, and to keep the barbarians from coming together.

http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Zbigniew_Brzezinski

[JDPriestly]

29. Tell that to the countries that rely on the assurances from the US that they are allies.

For what purpose is NATO if not to provide a common defense for the member countries including Germany? What interest does Germany (or Italy or Spain for that matter) have in entering into an organization like NATO which pretty much owns the defense of all the member countries if it cannot rely on the trust of the most powerful country in the alliance?

This is a crucial issue right now. We have many bases in Germany. And Russia while no longer communist still has regional interests in trying to gain more influence in Western Europe. We are foolish to risk our long and valuable friendships with Western European countries, especially Germany.

The German economy is the engine of the economy of Western Europe. We cannot afford to offend Germany or brush it off. I lived in Europe on the local economy for a number of years. Americans risk peril when they nonchalantly dismiss or disrespect our European allies. We need them just as they need us. It is extremely offensive to Europeans to learn that our NSA was listening in on the phone of the German chancellors. I can't explain to you the cultural reasons for that fact, but suffice it to say that in my experience Germans can be loyal to their friends to a fault. Americans are a diverse people. We Americans have trouble understanding the kind of loyalty that people feel when they are part of a society that identifies itself as a people based on a common and unique history, a common and unique dress, a common and uniqu language, a common and unique music, a common and unique cuisine, and overall a common and unique culture. We Americans borrow a piece of this national identity and a piece of this other one. That's our culture. To some extent we still identify as the national origin of our ancestors. So you have Polish-Americans, Irish-Americans, etc. Imagine that we had only Americans. We might identify more strongly with affronts to our country than we do, and most Americans are very insulted by criticisms or insults against America.

We have to accept other countries as they are. That is especially true of our closest allies. Germany is one of our closest if not our closest ally after Canada. They rely on us, and we on them. So the surveillance of the leaders of Germany is a terrible insult to Germany and the German people who are, in my opinion, among the most trustworthy people. That's my opinion based on having lived there.

[George II]

38. "Germany is one of our closest if not our closest ally after Canada."

I would say that Israel is our closest ally. Did everyone forget that they paid Jonathan Pollard to spy on the US for Israel?

[JDPriestly]

39. Germany is more reliable and more self-sufficient than Israel.

Nothing against Israel, and Israel helps the US a great deal, but Germany sits in the middle of Europe and is sort of one of the front wheels of NATO.

[blkmusclmachine]

33. Pre-dates 9/11?