Asha Mirje, Indian Politician, Says Women Invite Rape With Their Clothes, Behavior
Source: huffington post
An Indian female politician and activist has said rape victims may have invited attacks by their clothes and behaviour, fuelling a national debate over a series of incidents of sexual violence against women.
Asha Mirje, a Nationalist Congress Party (NCP) leader in western Maharashtra state, questioned at a meeting on Tuesday why a 23-year-old physiotherapy student who was gang-raped on a bus in Delhi in 2012 was out late at night.
"Rapes take place also because of a woman's clothes, her behaviour and her presence at inappropriate places," she said.
Women must be "careful", she said, and think if they are inviting assault.
"Every time such a statement is made by a public figure it justifies rape," Kavita Krishnan, secretary of the All India Progressive Women's Association, a lobby group, told Reuters.
While Mirje is thought to be the first senior female public figure to make such comments about the Delhi rape, other members of commissions looking after women's affairs have made similar remarks about less high-profile attacks.
"Mirje is reflecting what is a much larger problem. There are many others who hold such views," Krishnan said.
Read more: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/01/29/asha-mirje-rape-comments_n_4686379.html
Warpy
(111,327 posts)because she doesn't dress that way.
She's deluding herself.
Hekate
(90,773 posts)You are quite right -- she thinks it will protect her. I know the psychological mechanism all too well -- how sad....
And a maroon too!
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)Nevertheless, when you're talking about a completely different culture, one with different mores, a vastly different socio-economic arrangement, and a very different system of education ... such as what we see in the Middle East and many parts of the Asian subcontinent ... I'm not entirely sure that we in the West exactly deserve to 'judge' these types of opinions.
I mean, obviously, for the most part, here in the USA and most of the Western World (an area that is, on average, quite a bit more 'modern' in it's views towards women) we practically laugh at assertions along the lines of women can 'invite' rape, simply by the way they dress or where they choose to be at given moment in time, but ... we don't live in these incredibly sexually-repressed cultures ourselves.
I think it's instructive to remember as well that it really was not so long ago that large segments of the Western population (mostly men, but some women as well) held a view that's not altogether removed from the sentiments of Ms. Mirje. Hell, that movie with Jodie Foster where she's raped on the pinball machine (forget what it's called) is really not all that old ... and it was clearly meant to speak to this type of mentality within our culture, which was still somewhat rampant at the time it came out some 30 years ago. It was made 'for a reason', let's not kid ourselves.
What I'm basically getting at here is that it's not terribly surprising to discover that some other societies in the world are roughly 30 years behind the rest of the Western world in terms of grasping the concept that rape is a violent act committed by criminal men as opposed to the 'expected outcome' of 'temptresses' behaving in a 'seductive' manner that drive otherwise good men into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust.
So, what I mean is ... let's be real. A sizable part of the world still lags behind the 1st World/West when it comes to real understanding of 'cause and effect' when it comes to the gender/sex relations (along with many other, including religious, issues).
The best thing we can do is try to gently educate them in a way that doesn't come across as condescending. There obviously remains a very deep-seated belief amongst some cultures that males are not really in complete control of their sexual impulses ... and it's obvious, because if they DIDN'T have these beliefs, we wouldn't still see so many cultures where women are ordered to cover their faces and hair and legs and all that, purely for the purpose of protecting women from sexual assault, right?
Rather than ridicule them and/or just throw up our hands in disgust, we need to seek to educate, share what our sciences have discovered, and bring the rest of the world along with us. Like I said, don't forget that this view held sway even amongst our own, not so very long ago.
JI7
(89,262 posts)and don't make excuses based on things like culture . there are many in india who disagree and are outraged. support those people. express outrage and disgust at people like the one in the OP without making excuses of culture.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)But that doesn't mean I have to do as you demand.
Personally, I'm going to just let those 'many in India' that you speak of ... 'express their outrage and disgust', and agree with them, while despising the actual criminals involved, from afar.
But as I do that, I'll keep in mind that it wasn't so long ago that 'The Accused' was made, remember exactly WHY it was made, and not pass judgement (from atop my white horse) on a view that's apparently largely held by a society that's clearly years behind our own when it comes to their understanding of such matters.
'Culture' may not be great 'excuse', but it can still provide a rational explanation ... that's all I'm saying.
Squinch
(50,992 posts)I suppose the widespread cultural practice of murdering those of different religious beliefs or tribal affiliations should be gently tolerated, too, then. Because we must not judge. And culture may not be a great excuse but it provides an explanation.
What crap.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)The woman, from what I'm reading, is not 'condoning gang rape', and nor am I. It's very possible for two people to look at the same exact event, and both believe that event is horrible and heinous ... whilst having a totally different opinion as to what the causality of the event was.
My only real point here was ... this attitude we have in the west that rape is purely an act of violence, not one of lust or sex, is a relatively new in world history. Given how backwards that part of the world is ... is it really that surprising that there's people over there (esp. older people who grew up with the 'old' way of thinking .. the one that led to veils and head-to-toe clothing for women) who still haven't 'gotten our memo'? I don't think it's that surprising.
People like this woman need to be educated. The rapists, OTOH, need to be shot.
Squinch
(50,992 posts)She is abetting the rapists by saying they are not responsible for their actions, that the victims are the perpetrators.
You are saying we should be "gentle" with her as she does this. You are saying that not being gentle is judgmental condescension. Again, that is crap.
Gentleness does not have a place in fighting these destructive attitudes that put women at risk by saying it is "cultural" or "natural" and therefore less wrong.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)We both desire the same outcome, believe me.
You know where I found out that the real cause of rape was violent men who desired the feeling of power, as opposed to being an act based on lust? It was ... SCHOOL. & I was a KID, in the 70's. And I quickly discovered that this (relatively new view on the subject) was spreading to everyone around me and becoming a part of the cultural zeitgeist. I came to believe this via education and at a young age.
Thus, my response to this 'news', if you will, was quite different from what it'd have been with someone screaming it in my face, at 60+ years old, living in a society where that particular view was NOT the dominant paradigm.
I'm not saying be 'gentle' and 'educational' in our approach because I have some 'soft spot' for friggin' rape, not even close. I'm saying that when you approach people (esp. older folks) with vitriol, histrionics and ridicule about their life-long beliefs ... all they do is dig in their heels and shake their head. I'm talking about what I think is more likely to WORK. Not because I think their beliefs aren't WORTHY of vitriol ... I think they are ... but I GREW UP knowing this Western paradigm on the subject. They did not. They learned something very different about it.
Thus, I think the 'better' (as in 'more likely to work') approach is 'education' ... not throwing our feces at them, much as we may feel that is deserved.
Demit
(11,238 posts)Your attitude drips with condescension.
The idea of "gently educating" gang rapists is repulsive to me. Rape can't be excused by "mores" or a "vastly different socio-economic arrangement." It is violence against women. And it is always wrong.
Squinch
(50,992 posts)think this attitude is flatly wrong because... I lose the thread there. I think it's because Jodie Foster made a movie.
Yes, we should judge this attitude. Yes, we should show all the disgust we feel at this attitude. No we should not condone and coddle this attitude. This attitude legitimizes rape, this attitude says that men are never responsible for men's behavior.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)Last edited Thu Jan 30, 2014, 01:02 PM - Edit history (2)
For fucks sake, you can string those bastards up for all I care.
My main point here is ... it's not terribly surprising to hear that this belief still holds sway in the Middle East and even India ... where there are Muslims, this attitude exists. That's why they make their women cover up, because they believe this to be true about men, that they can't control themselves, their animal natures.
This shouldn't shock us to hear ... esp. when this view on the 'causality' of rape was common even in our own society, not that long ago, and is still believed by a small sliver.
People like this lady politician need to be EDUCATED about the true cause of rape. If you were to approach her with our Western view (i.e. it's about power/violence, not lust) with the type of attitude everyone's showing on this thread ... it probably would not 'work'.
Obviously you think differently, so we can agree to disagree on that point.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)Rape is an act of violence, no matter where on the earth it occurs. And then, when the victim is blamed, that's another act of violence. And when the victim is shunned by her friends and family, there is another act of violence. Any country who allows this to go on in their society cannot call itself civilized.
I'm really just saying in a long-winded (but I thought well-argued way ... obviously many disagree) ... it's not surprising to me to hear. The leadership their clearly needs education.
Do you think you're going to get through to them by responding in the way (I won't NAME this type of response, otherwise I'll get trouble for that) everyone here is to me? I personally doubt that will work. You have to bring people along to change their backwards attitudes about stuff like this.
ReRe
(10,597 posts)... there is some activism in India after this gang rape occurred. I think there were some rather large protests. Look it... India is a hard case. They say if you want to change your life, just take your "vacation" in India. What's their population now? 1.5 billion? I could go on and on about India. But whether they call themselves a "democracy" or not, the government's got a long way to go if they blame rape on women/girls/boys and not on the rapist.
MadrasT
(7,237 posts)Similar assertions are made in the Western World, especially the USA, all the time.
hue
(4,949 posts)"otherwise good men" are not driven "into an uncontrollable frenzy of lust." Your statement here places the onus of rape on the woman. You just don't understand RAPE and may not want to understand it since you justify rape in other cultures so craftily.
It doesn't matter if the woman wears NOTHING such as a married couple in their home; if the woman does not want to have sex She should not be forced as it is RAPE! Sexual intimacy should always be consensual.
The onus for the violent forcing belongs to the one who forces! Period.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)OF COURSE I DON'T THINK THEY ARE OTHERWISE GOOD MEN.
Perhaps I wasn't clear enough in the way I worded that, so ... I understand why you got that idea from my words, but that wasn't meant to signify what *I* think of such men or the situation. I think they're friggin' scum who should be shot.
And don't friggin' accuse me of justifying RAPE ... I'm explaining the wrong-headed ATTITUDE this lady has about it, two different things.
Jiminy Christmas ...
Squinch
(50,992 posts)as understandable because "culture" is what everyone is objecting to. Your insistence that we be gentle with her attitude, and your accusation that not being gentle is condescension is what everyone is objecting to.
No one is misconstruing your message.
You are not being misunderstood. You are being disagreed with vehemently.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)You must not be reading very closely. I was directly accused of justifying rape (post 11). AND of wanting to 'gently educate' the gang rapists themselves (post 7).
However, please read my Post 30 ... I think that sums up my response to your comment as well.
Although let me also add that when I say 'understandable' I don't AT ALL mean 'oh, we should go along with it'. Far from it. Only that it's NOT SURPRISING. Do you understand the difference? You go back 50 years in our own country and take a poll, you'd find that the majority of people here in the USA would've agreed with what this lady was saying. We've LEARNED differently in the interim. Over there ... they need this same education that we've gotten.
Squinch
(50,992 posts)educating. Because in history, that has never worked. Ever. And it's the last refuge of the fans of the status quo.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)Not every cultural paradigm has to be shifted via the 'righteous folk' vehemently degrading other people's wrong-minded beliefs. Especially one where 'what's right' ... is really fairly self-evident, as it is in this case.
Hell, many of us liberals try to do this all the time with the idiot right-wingers ... we get in their face, call 'em names, tell 'em they're friggin' stupid, etc. And they do it us as well. How often do you think minds are changed through this method?
Compare that to how often we change minds through 'education'.
I believe Education works better.
But you go on and throw the proverbial feces at people. See how far it gets ya.
Good day ...
Squinch
(50,992 posts)Demit
(11,238 posts)He seems to be giving up on the idea of gently educating us on what he's talking about, tho. He's moved right past condescension and right into blaming us for misreading him. So many here misconstruing his words! This guy, who pats himself on the back for having such a modern attitude, has absolutely no self awareness.
Squinch
(50,992 posts)I can really see how he thinks that kind of thing is going to work to change people's thinking.
Dash87
(3,220 posts)The rapists know its wrong, but they do it anyways because they can get away with with. This politician's statements are a way to ass-kiss the power structure to advance her political career. That's like saying that we should have tread lightly in the civil rights movement because Americans were just following their cultural beliefs and needed to be educated otherwise.
Cultural practices like this don't deserve respect or tolerance. They need to be stamped out of existence world-wide.
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)She knows the rape is wrong, ffs we all know that, instinctively. OF COURSE the 'cultural practice' of 'rape', assuming that's what you're talking about, should be stamped out worldwide.
ck4829
(35,082 posts)VWolf
(3,944 posts)WHAT CENTURY ARE WE IN????
What millennium, for that matter?
brett_jv
(1,245 posts)It seems like they are most definitely not living in the same Century as the rest of us.
It's obvious in so many friggin' ways it's not even funny.
And this is another one of those ways.
marble falls
(57,157 posts)tanyev
(42,598 posts)Squinch
(50,992 posts)We must NEVER suggest that it's actually the rapists who are in the wrong.
This woman is a moron, plain and simple. And an astonishingly destructive one at that.
Kelvin Mace
(17,469 posts)and the GOP stance is that this woman says out loud what the GOP firmly believes but seldom admits to, since when they do, they lose elections.
Arugula Latte
(50,566 posts)Squinch
(50,992 posts)Aristus
(66,440 posts)In exactly the same way that men having heads and bellies and soft, penetrable skin is an invitation to get stabbed or shot to death. Or having a dick and balls is a clear invitation to have someone slice them off. See? It's the victim's fault...
catbyte
(34,426 posts)Just like female genital mutilation in Africa. Why must be a party to our own oppression and pain?
Squinch
(50,992 posts)These rapes are not the fault of the women, but you can set your clock by the amount of time that it takes for a contingent of women to say, "We must stop this by doing X."
It is not up to us to stop this. It is up to us to throw the responsibility for these things back into the laps of those who do it, and those who let them think the attitudes that lead to it are "just culture" and therefore unchangeable and acceptable.
closeupready
(29,503 posts)Is it illiteracy? Is it in the water? Sheez. K&R
JI7
(89,262 posts)and people all around the world including in the US have said similar things .
frwrfpos
(517 posts)shes part of the problem