Nursing home says it won't take 'brain-dead' girl

[LiberalElite]

Source: SeattlePI.com

OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) — A San Francisco Bay Area nursing home that had agreed to provide long-term care for a 13-year-old Oakland girl declared brain dead has backed out.

Read more: http://www.seattlepi.com/news/medical/article/Nursing-home-says-it-won-t-take-brain-dead-girl-5096373.php

[dipsydoodle]

1. Sounds sad

having given her parents hope.

[LiberalElite]

2. Yes -

the last op I posted on this had a statement from one of them that it looked like they had "gotten their miracle". Guess not.

[skepticscott]

3. There is no "girl" any more

They agreed to keep a corpse animated for as long as possible is what it amounted to. Thank goodness they came to their senses in time, instead of keeping up this sick charade.

Her parents need some serious counseling to help them accept that their daughter is dead, and she's not coming back. They don't need people feeding their sad delusion and false hope.

[alp227]

4. Agree with your last part in principle, but I think they have the freedom to have those delusions.

Question is, are the taxpayers obligated to subsidize their delusions if that's the cost of their beliefs?

[pnwmom]

8. That's the point. They can't pay for her body's continued care

and Medicaid won't pay for continued ventilation and nutrition going to a corpse.

[valerief]

33. Why don't they just pray for it? If it doesn't work, then they either abandon religion or

resign themselves to the age-old, "Well, that's what the Lord wants."

[SorellaLaBefana]

63. "Have A Heart. Let Us Have Jahi For Christmas"

The plea pictured in the linked article says.

Truly, I doubt that there are very many people in this world who would deny that plea. However, the fact is that Jahi is already gone.

Everything that makes us a person is dependent upon the functioning of the neurons making up the cerebral cortex. This layer of ourselves, which is ourselves, is like the icing on a cinnamon roll. It is only between 1 and 4.5 mm thick - averaging approximately 2.5 mm over the entirety of the hemispheres. Say, about 0.098 inches.

Not very thick, and very easily damaged as these neurons can live no longer than about 4 minutes without oxygen.

From what is reported in the news, this unfortunate child became hypoxic in the recovery room as a result of bleeding following a tonsillectomy. Apparently her airway was completely lost, she arrested and her fragile cortex became anoxic long enough for the neurons to be destroyed - for Jahi to be destroyed.

It is truly heart-breaking that this has happened. It is also heart breaking when the mother is quoted as saying{1} "Jahi is dead only if her heart stops" because this is not true.

The heart, being simple non-thinking muscle, is much more resistant to interruption of its blood supply, as are other vital organs such as the liver, kidneys and lungs.

Jahi the person is dead and gone, only the organic machine of her body continues to automatically function. Jahi's body should be allowed to die, now that she has no further use of it. This body needs to be allowed to cease functioning, so that Jahi the person can be fully mourned.

שלום ... Peace

----------------------
{1} http://www.cnn.com/2013/12/28/health/life-support-ethics/

[rocktivity]

5. With two doctors pronouncing her brain dead

Last edited Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:18 PM - Edit history (3)

the hospital had no choice -- their professional credibility was on the line.

Time for the parents to grow up and pull the plug.


rocktivity

[Retrograde]

11. It's been more than two

I think they're up to six separate opinions, all agreeing that there is no brain activity and thus no hope of recovery.

Dealing with the death of one's child is always hard, especially when it's so sudden and unexpected. It's been two weeks, though, and time to accept the sad fact.

[magical thyme]

16. correct. 2 hospital physicians, 3 neurological specialists hired by the parents and 1 by the courts

Over the course of the last 2 weeks, 6 doctors have examined her and found her irreversibly brain dead, with no cerebral or brain stem activity.

[Th1onein]

42. I love it when people think that they can tell others when it's "time" to let a family member die.

Or when the grieving period should be over. It simply is none of your business. Until you're ready to take their place, it's not up to you. Until you're ready to do their grieving for them, it's not up to you.

I've read people on here say that once the cerebral cortex goes, the brain stem goes, and nothing, not even a machine, can keep that person alive. Well, if that's the case, why not leave things to nature? Why force that cruel decision on anyone? It's really the height of arrogance.

[VanillaRhapsody]

51. because they are not leaving it up to "nature" are they

the girl is alive by science not nature...

[customerserviceguy]

57. The grieving can't begin to be over

until the plug is pulled on this empty shell of a body. The resources devoted to doing CPR on what is effectively a corpse can be diverted to those who actually have some slight hope of regaining a semblance of a life.

Pulling the plug does leave things to nature.

[Th1onein]

65. It's not that I don't understand the logic. Everyone understands that.

It's that you don't understand what it is like to stand in those parents' shoes. You should, just for a minute, put yourself in their place. Then, maybe you will understand that, sometimes, compassion outweighs pragmatism.

[customerserviceguy]

89. While few of us (fortunately) ever will stand in their shoes

the simple fact is, if they can afford the fantasy that some miracle from an invisible skyfather will swoop in and 'save' this child, then they can bankroll it. The rest of us have to deal with the reality that she's already gone, and we need to help bring them along to that conclusion sooner.

[Th1onein]

90. I'm sure they don't need your "help."

The science of "brain dead" is not settled. It is up to them to decide what that means for them, and to have hope, or not. And, since when do we, or our insurance companies, who we PAY to take the risk, not bankroll our own healthcare?

Give it up. Respect this family's wishes.

[skepticscott]

62. Who has told the parents

that "the grieving period should be over"? Who on this thread or anywhere else has said anything remotely like that? Absolutely no one, and you know that.

When you make blatantly false implications like that, it makes the rest of us wonder about your veracity and your motives.

[Th1onein]

66. There are several, on here, who have said that it is time for the grieving period to begin

so that it can be over. I think that speaks volumes about their compassion.

[skepticscott]

73. In other words, no one here has told the family

WHEN the grieving period should be over, despite your claim. All they've said is that if it is ever to end at all, whenever that is, it first has to START. Do you disagree with that?

[Th1onein]

74. "All they've said is that if it is ever to end at all, it first has to START"?

WTF? Who are you to say that it has to START?

Are you aware that the idea of death, brain death, is still not settled, even among medical professionals? I see people on here talking about "it" when referring to this child. IT! Or referring to this child as a "corpse." Unbelievably cruel.

Did you know that we don't have the technology to test anything other than the first few layers of the cortex for functioning? And yet we have the gall to say that the entire brain is dead.

The arrogance is appalling.

[skepticscott]

77. Well, fine…you go tell the parents that they should never, ever grieve for their dead daughter

Or that it would be better for them to just hover over an animated corpse (and yes, sorry, that's what this is) for the rest of their lives.

The rest of us realize that it's possible to know something about the psychology of loss and grief, including the denial of loss. And about what makes a person dead, and what kind of state a person can recover from. The fact that our knowledge of the brain isn't perfect or complete doesn't change that.

[Th1onein]

78. Twist words much?

Look, no one is saying that they can't grieve. What I'm saying is that neither you, nor anyone else, has the right to tell these people that it's time for them to start grieving, or that it's time to stop, either.

The science of death, in terms of brain death, is hardly settled. Most people don't know that. It is in true ignorance that one refers to this little girl as a "corpse."

[skepticscott]

80. If anyone is twisting words

It's you...again. No one her has said that the grieving process has to start at any particular moment, only that it has to start.

Unless you have a different and concrete definition of when someone is dead, when their organs can be harvested and when they can be buried, than the many doctors involved here, then you're no better than the family. So give us YOUR definition of "dead". And be sure to give us one that doesn't brand thousands of families and doctors as murderers, for killing someone who isn't really "dead".

[Th1onein]

82. Are you kidding me?

"No one her has said that the grieving process has to start at any particular moment, only that it has to start."

Isn't the implication here that it has to start SOON or NOW? Geez. You really don't expect me or anyone else to swallow that one without choking, do you?

As for the "definition" of dead, the idea of what constitutes "brain dead" varies; the criteria varies, and it does so worldwide. On the other hand, the time-tested and generally accepted criteria for death--the cessation of circulation, respiration, and reflexes--is not subject to dispute.

[skepticscott]

86. No, your PROJECTION onto the people you're calling out as "arrogant"

is that they're saying it needs to start now. It's pretty fucking arrogant of YOU to tell us what we're implying, when we're not. Acceptance of death has to come BEFORE grieving can begin. Do you dispute that? Because that's all that's been "implied" here. How the family deals with things at that point is their own business.

By what definition is this girl even arguably NOT dead? And please, do feel free to substitute your judgement for that of all of the doctors who have examined and tested her (more arrogance).

[Th1onein]

88. You really need to inform yourself.

The idea of being "brain dead" is relatively recent. You don't know that? Inform yourself, please.

And, of course, acceptance of death has to come before grieving can begin, but what you are saying is that grieving has to start, therefore, acceptance of death must begin. You know that's what you're saying, unless you're completely twisting language. Or do you really expect me to believe that, while you are insisting that this girl is dead, grieving can start somewhere in the future?

By what definition is the girl not dead? Well, let me put it this way: The criteria for "brain dead" is different the world over; disputed the world over. It is by no means uniform. That should give you pause. Also, the fact that we simply don't have the technology to determine whether the entire brain is inactive, should make you question. We know that this organ has holistic, even holographic, capabilities, but we can say that because the top couple of layers has no activity, then the whole thing is dead? I don't think so.

[mucifer]

6. In most single payer health care countries, this would not be allowed.

In my opinion, it's just not right. I can see keeping her alive through Christmas. But, it should end.

[Warpy]

7. Agreed on the reprieve through Xmas

but it's just an artificially fed and oxygenated corpse.

Losing a child is said to be the worst pain there is. The parents need counseling to accept the fact that she is already gone, just tethered to a shell that no longer works. They need to be counseled to let their daughter go.

[mucifer]

10. Believe me, I know what it looks like. I have seen children kept alive like this in the hospital.

It's very ugly. It looks nothing like tv or movies. Sometimes there is lots of counseling. But, our laws in my opinion are really messed up. The doctors should be able to say "There is nothing more we can do. We are sorry." The parents are grieving. They often can't think clearly. It's not right to have them in charge of the decision when the child is brain dead.

Another problem is that many hospitals don't test children to know if they are brain dead and they keep the children on the horrible machines monitoring every electrolyte change, administering 8 or 9 infusions until the heart finally stops when all the organs fail. By then shocking the body and chest compressions don't do anything.

[magical thyme]

17. She is not being kept alive. She is dead. They are pumping oxygen into a corpse. nt

[JI7]

20. didn't some judge order them not to take her off the machines ? otherwise the hospital would have i

assume.

[LiberalElite]

26. The judge gave them till Dec. 30th n/t

[seattledo]

53. Exactly

Again, this is why we need more government control of healthcare.

[laundry_queen]

85. Not necessarily

http://www.torontosun.com/2013/10/18/supreme-court-to-rule-on-life-support-case

Basically, if there is a disagreement between the doctors and the family, it has to go to a review board.

[alp227]

9. Update from the Oakland Tribune

Jahi McMath: Children's Hospital Oakland agrees to release brain-dead girl to long-term care

OAKLAND -- Reversing a stand officials had taken hours earlier, Children's Hospital Oakland agreed Friday to release a 13-year-old brain-dead girl whose family had asked she be moved to another facility.

The letter came one day after the family's attorney, Christopher Dolan, wrote hospital officials asking them to release Jahi McMath -- who doctors say was left brain-dead from complications after a Dec. 9 surgery to remove her tonsils and clear tissue from the nose and throat to help her breathe.

The girl's family on Thursday said the family had found a "greater Bay Area facility" that would give her long-term care. However, Children's Hospital officials said almost immediately that they would not give the girl a tracheotomy and surgically implant a feeding tube, conditions that the unnamed facility in the East Bay had insisted upon.

As a result of the uncertainty, the family was unable to hold onto the facility's last available bed, according to their attorney. On Friday, the family said that another facility, in North Hollywood, was prepared to take the girl in, though they would also require surgical preparations.

[cosmicone]

12. It's the evil lawyer

who wants to keep this going. He is now going to Federal Court to stop the termination of life support indefinitely. I hope the feds slap him hard and remove the injunction so the hospital can pull the plug and send the parents to serious bereavement counseling.

[wisteria]

25. The family believes in God, not the medical profession.

And, they want to believe their child could heal with prayer, and a miracle from God. They don't want the guilt of "pulling the plugs" because they do not, or have not accepted her death. I would go to great lengths for my child too, exhausting all avenues to keep what life the machines are creating going. Doctors aren't God, they can be wrong, and in the medical profession, they protect their own. In a controversial case like this one, I doubt a doctor would over rule the view of another and make the profession look foolish.

[cosmicone]

30. Ever heard of "objective" evidence?

Said evidence is not subject to a person's subjective interpretation and thus provides accurate data -- like fingerprints or DNA.

When a person's EEG flatlines or shows no conscious activity like alpha or beta waves AND FURTHER, when a person has no auditory evoked responses of any kind, SCIENCE objectively determines with virtual certainty that the person is DEAD with 0% chance of survival even if god, Jehovah, Allah, Krishna, Jesus, Moses, Buddha, Ahura Mazda and Shiva acted jointly, combining their powers together to make that person alive.

The parents have an absolute right to believe in god and keep a tragedy going but NOT AT THE EXPENSE OF MY TAX DOLLARS.

[wisteria]

45. Are you so sure they are your tax dollars?

And, it is sad that you place more faith in human science than in God. Maybe this little girl is not alive, but maybe she is. Doctors and science have been wrong before.

[cosmicone]

48. I have never ever seen a brain dead person come to life

in my entire medical career or in published literature.

You are confusing coma or persistent vegetative state with brain death. Many people wake up from coma and a few from persistent vegetative state but no one can live after being brain dead. If they did, JFK would still be alive.

Besides, it costs about $280,000 a month or $70,000 a week to keep someone in the ICU on the machines. I doubt the parents have that kind of money and the obvious conclusion is that taxpayers are going to pay for this religious exercise through medicaid or medicare or both.

If a church was paying for it I'll say go for it. However, even a church wouldn't spend good money on brain death. It will give lip service to the faith but won't write a check.

Perhaps believers like you should contribute to this utter waste of money.

[alp227]

58. "And, it is sad that you place more faith in human science than in God."

Are you serious?

"Doctors and science have been wrong before."

Does not validate religious explanations of nature that do not follow the scientific method.

[SorellaLaBefana]

64. Perhaps more faith is placed in Science than in God

because science actually is known to exist?

Besides, if God does exist, then this tragedy is precisely His Will - for He is omnipotent, omniscient, emanate.

[catbyte]

61. Please, wisteria,this is pretty final. A brain dead person is dead, and it is almost

ghoulish to keep a corpse alive. Remember Terri Schiavo?

[Th1onein]

76. You are misinformed.

Schiavo was in a persistent vegetative state.

And the science on brain dead is not set in stone. We only have the capacity to measure a couple of levels into the surface of the brain; we don't know that the entire brain is dead, or that it doesn't have holistic capabilities. We simply do not know if the top part of the brain is non-functional, is all of it? We don't know.

For you to refer to this little girl as a corpse is both arrogant and heartless.

[catbyte]

79. Oh, please. Show me ONE verified case wheere a person has been brain dead for

over 2 weeks has recovered. It's arrogant & heartless of you to string grieving families along thinking this dead child will come back to life, not to mention cruel.

[nomorenomore08]

83. Is there any proof that "God" exists? Or at least proof that doesn't rely on pure faith or emotion?

And they've gotten no less than 6 opinions that state that not only is the situation hopeless, but she's literally already dead - keeping her on a ventilator and heart machine is disrespectful to the memory of the once living person, if you ask me.

I don't entirely blame the family for feeling the way they do - and as an African-American family they have perhaps a bit more reason to distrust the medical profession - but enough is enough already! No point in taking an already incredibly sad situation and rendering it drawn-out and pathetic.

[skepticscott]

32. If they have so much "faith" in "god"

why don't they just unplug the machines and trust "god" to keep her "alive" and to reanimate her. Why are they depending on doctors at all? Why didn't they just pray to "god" to remove her tonsils in the first place? If "god" could bring a brain-dead person back to life, the tonsil thing should have been easy.

For the same reason that Xstian Scientists don't rely on "god" to heal a broken leg. Because deep down, they know they're full of shit and that their "god" isn't listening or doing anything.

[wisteria]

46. She needs time to heal?

And, why are so angry at the mention of God? Miracles has been proven to happen with prayer.

[cosmicone]

50. If almighty god is going to bring her back to life

then he/she will be able to even after she is buried don't you think? Or are god's powers limited to brain dead children on machines?

[skepticscott]

54. Needs time to heal? Why?

Can't your "god" just heal her? Why is your sick god forcing these people to hover over an animated corpse for weeks?

And no, "miracles" do not happen because of prayer. If you have enough sick people with people praying over them, eventually unlikely things will happen in a few of those cases, but you cannot point to one incident where "prayer" was "proven" to help.

[alp227]

59. Why are YOU godbotting this thread?

And when had science ever proven a miracle? Otherwise you are just making stuff up. Assertion fallacy.

http://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Prayer

[Codeine]

71. Miracles proven? Really?

I fucking think not.

[PassingFair]

34. If "God" was going to perform a miracle, you wouldn't NEED the machines.

Or is God stuck in a traffic jam or something?

Finishing putting away the Xmas tree?

[wisteria]

47. God provided the will to create the machines.

And, for some these machines are life savers.

[VanillaRhapsody]

52. for some...but not this one...

her life has concluded..If you truly believe in God then her soul is already gone home...it's only her physical body that they are not letting go of.

[Codeine]

72. She's a stiff!

Bereft of life, she rests in peace! Her metabolic processes are now history! She's off the twig! She's kicked the bucket, she's shuffled off her mortal coil, run down the curtain and joined the bleedin' choir invisible!!

[JNinWB]

13. Wonder if the family originally informed the nursing home that the patient was dead?

That would surely affect the facilities desire to accept the transfer. Children's Hospital will not surgically implant the ventilator or feeding tube as they believe it would be unethical to perform these procedures on a dead person.

Earlier I read that the mother believes that God will "spark" Jahi's brain back to life. I am surprised that the courts would prevent the hospital from removing the vent because of this mother's religious delusion.

This entire circus over the past several weeks has been macabre and disquieting. If our society cannot agree concerning the scientific determination of brain death, what implications does this have for end-of-life decision making?

[magical thyme]

18. the article mentioned they backed out after discussions with Children's Hospital

and Children's has said they will be happy to have her moved to another facility, but only after they have had discussions with the receiving facility so they can advise as to her status.

So you are correct. Not everybody follows the news closely; the nursing home probably did not realize she has been found irreversibly brain dead by 6 different doctors, include 4 neurologists include 3 hired by the parents, until after discussions with Children's.

[ripcord]

14. I feel so sorry for the parents

The mother dismissed the girls premonition that she wouldn't wake up so she probably feels responsible but she isn't really there anymore.

[LiberalElite]

27. Her daughter

did wake up and asked for an ice pop so things looked good at first. Then she began to hemorrhage from her nose and mouth and the nurses claimed this was normal.

[Scairp]

15. This is incredibly tragic

But the mother is in deep denial. She needs to do the last, loving thing she can for her daughter and let her go. The daughter she knew is gone already anyway and keeping her breathing by machine is not life. She needs to let her go so she can begin to grieve properly and not be given false hope by whomever is doing so. I don't know that for certain that is happening, but the mother has been given the same medical opinion over and over and she has got to accept it, for her child's sake.

[aaaaaa5a]

19. And people wonder why health care costs so much money.

Death is a part of life. It is terribly sad. Especially when it happens to the young. But none of this will prevent what HAS ALREADY HAPPENED.

Shame on the media for not reporting this in its proper context.

[Douglas Carpenter]

21. brain dead is not to be confused with something like comatose or persistent vegetative state

It means the patient is dead. There is no 13-year-old girl there - There is a corpse which is still maintaining a heart rate only because of artificial respiration and chemical manipulation. There is no spontaneous respiratory effort of any kind or even reflex reaction of any kind. It would be unprincipled and unethical to spend any public or private funds to temporarily and artificially keep the heart beating by providing completely artificial cardiopulmonary support on a corpse.

[SCVDem]

22. Donate her organs

and take solice in other parents happiness.

[NNguyenMD]

23. Heart breaking

As an adult ICU doctor its a bit harder for me to relate to this situation. But a lot of this can be traced back to the lost of trust that occurred in the post-operative period immediately before Jahi went into cardiac arrest.

She had bleeding, whether or not it was more than what was expected is beyond anyone who wasn't there, but her mother said that no physician came back to check on her. And the only thing that the nurses were able to do was to give this poor girl a bigger bucket to bleed into.

Even if the outcome ended up the same with a brain dead child, having a physician or surgeon acknowledge something was wrong, and immediately attending to it by showing up at the bedside right away would have maintained the mother's trust in the physicians and hospital. And this poor girl's body would not have to be futility sustain by the tortures of the ICU.

I have seen many post-operarive complications. And the vast majority of the time patients are so forgiving and understanding that this is the risk of procedures, so long as you acknowledge that their pain, suffering, and morbidity is real and oftentimes permanent.

It breaks my heart to even begin to imagine what Jaho's mother is going through. And it may very well end up being the case that they will have to tear her away from her daughter's body in order to withdraw care. Its still the right tjing to do for Jahi, but it really didn't have end up this way.

[theHandpuppet]

24. Thank you for your post and perspective

A tragic case from which, I hope, many can learn.

[LiberalElite]

28. Yes I had an elderly cousin

die after an appendectomy. She actually was recovering from it very well but several days later died from a blood clot. (This was in the 1970s)

[intaglio]

29. In relation to the failure of a physician to attend

What happened to the 3 things that you were allowed to run in the corridors about
Fire
Heart failure
and Hemorrhage.

[cosmicone]

31. One of my attending professors at Harvard

told me during my internship -- patients will forgive major blunders if they were honest mistakes and if the doctor takes responsibility. The one patient that will sue you is the one you don't treat as a human being, as your own father, mother, brother, sister, nephew or niece.

I have never forgotten that and fortunately, I was never sued despite a lot of judgment calls in the ICU that didn't go the expected way.

[Gormy Cuss]

35. This is a local story and as best I can tell, this may be the heart of the problem.

The early response from the physicians and hospital seems to have been lacking in many regards. No doubt there will be a court case over this and perhaps details will be made public.

It amazes me that some DUers have been criticizing the family's actions so harshly. No one with life experience would fault the family for what they have done the last few weeks. They were shocked by the loss and responded with denial and anger. These are natural grief reactions. I hope that soon they can accept the fact that their beloved is gone, that they have done everything they could for her and it's time to let go.

[LiberalElite]

38. Kind of harsh isn't it -

assuming that those who criticize don't have life experience? I have lots of it - beginning when my father died after a long illness when I was 7. The fact is, none of us - absolutely none of us - know what the family is going through except for extreme emotional distress: that's a given and is normal. But the girl is unfortunately dead and they're IMHO delaying the inevitable in spite of the fact that their own experts have agreed that she is dead. That part I do not understand.

[Gormy Cuss]

39. Nope, not harsh at all.

Last edited Sat Dec 28, 2013, 10:13 PM - Edit history (1)

I completely agree with you that none of us know all that the family is experiencing right now but those who have experienced and seen grief understand that it may affect one's ability to think clearly, to make rational decisions, and even to accept the inevitable.

Some of the comments that I've read on DU display a lack of understanding of grief or an acute lack of empathy. That's the most generous way I can describe it. Calling the family selfish for fighting the hospital over ending life support is just so cold that I can't imagine that someone who has gone through the loss of someone close to them would post it here.

[LiberalElite]

40. ok point taken nt

[southern_belle]

41. +1 n/t

[Sheldon Cooper]

81. Thank you Gormy Cuss and also NNguyenMD for your compassion toward this family.

[Psephos]

43. a moving and intelligent post n/t

[Judi Lynn]

36. Update: Facility found for Calif. teen on ventilator

Facility found for Calif. teen on ventilator

| December 28, 2013 | Updated: December 28, 2013 9:41am

OAKLAND, Calif. (AP) — An attorney says a nursing home has agreed to provide long-term care for a 13-year-old girl, who has been declared brain dead but whose family maintains is still alive.

A southern California facility agreed after another nursing home backed out, the family's lawyer, Christopher Dolan, said Friday.

He wouldn't provide its name, saying "we're afraid they'll be inundated with press" and decide to back out as well.

Time is short for the family, as Alameda County Superior Court Judge Evelio Grillo on Tuesday ruled that the Children's Hospital Oakland may remove Jahi McMath from life support at 5 p.m. Monday unless an appeal is filed.

Jahi underwent tonsil surgery at Children's Hospital on Dec. 9 to treat sleep apnea. After she awoke from the operation, her family said, she started bleeding heavily from her mouth and went into cardiac arrest. Doctors at Children's Hospital concluded the girl was brain dead on Dec. 12 and wanted to remove her from life support. The family said they believe she is still alive.

More:
http://www.chron.com/news/us/article/Facility-found-for-Calif-teen-on-ventilator-5097881.php

[rocktivity]

37. Is the hospital still refusing to insert the tubes she'd need

Last edited Sat Dec 28, 2013, 07:48 PM - Edit history (2)

because they say she's brain dead? Or will the new nursing home be able to take care of that?

Before Jahi can be transferred, she must undergo...the insertion of a breathing tube and a feeding tube, both of which would be necessary for her long-term care but which the nursing home is not equipped to perform. The hospital has refused to perform the procedures. "Children's Hospital Oakland does not believe that performing surgical procedures on the body of a deceased person is an appropriate medical practice,"...its chief of pediatrics said...

(A) lawyer for the hospital said in a letter made public Friday that...it would need to speak directly with officials at any nursing home to make sure they understand her condition, "including the fact that Jahi is brain dead"...He also said the Alameda County coroner needed to sign off on the move "since we are dealing with the body of a person who has been declared legally dead..."

Jahi can't be moved without the tubes, the hospital won't allow them to be inserted because they say she's dead, and the coroner would be committing professional suicide by effectively declaring that she's NOT dead, which puts her family in a Catch-22 -- if you'll pardon the expression...


rocktivity

[Th1onein]

44. Right, because doctors are always right.

Except when they're wrong:

http://www.foxnews.com/health/2011/05/11/husband-celebrates-miracle-brain-dead-wife-wakes-hospital/

And here: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/health/article-2134346/Steven-Thorpe-Teenager-declared-brain-dead-FOUR-doctors-makes-miracle-recovery.html

In the case directly above, FOUR doctors had found this patient brain dead. A fifth finally found faint signs of brain activity, after the parents begged him to look.

We really are such arrogant creatures, us humans. We admit we don't know much about the brain, but then we act like we know it all. I guess that's okay, though, when it's not OUR loved ones whose life is at stake.

[wisteria]

49. Well said! n/t

[HERVEPA]

55. Horseshit.

[Th1onein]

67. Great argument. Rah Rah.

[HERVEPA]

68. Yep. Fauxnews and Daily mail are great sources.

Sorry, people don't come back from the dead.
Believe fairy tales if you like.

[Th1onein]

69. I guess the BBC, Huff Post, and the Telegraph are also bad sources?

Because they carried the same story. Once again, really bad argument.

You know, it's not the stupidity that gets to me in these arguments. It's the pure arrogance--that we know ALL about something as complex as the human brain.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-17757112

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/04/24/a-british-car-accident-vi_n_1450113.html

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/health/healthnews/9223408/Miracle-recovery-of-teen-declared-brain-dead-by-four-doctors.html

[intaglio]

56. I see you have gone to trustworthy sources

Fox News and The Daily Mail.

I'm sure trusting Fox will endear you to everybody on DU whilst trusting The Daily Mail about medical stories calls for Dan and Dan

[alp227]

60. No kidding. This thread has brought out startling anti science sentiment on a PROGRESSIVE board.

I thought this kind of "science has been wrong, a miracle can happen" talk only went on at Free Republic.

[Dash87]

70. This is so sad and I can barely bring myself to comment about it.

Despite the fact that she's dead, it's a horrible situation. Telling the parents to let her go, despite being the most logical thing to do, feels heartless.

[rocktivity]

75. New York facility is 'last hope' for girl declared brain dead, family say

Last edited Sun Dec 29, 2013, 11:43 PM - Edit history (3)

The family of Jahi McMath...said Saturday a hospital in New York may be able to accept her and keep her on life support. The girl's uncle and lawyer wouldn't provide the hospital's name, saying they don't want media attention to hurt her chance of being accepted and transferred there. "It's an organization that believes in life," attorney Chris Dolan told the Associated Press...

A nursing home in the San Francisco Bay Area that had been willing to care for the girl if she had two tubes inserted changed its mind. Dolan said a facility in the Los Angeles area also withdrew its offer because it didn't want media attention or to jeopardize its relationship with its doctors, who refused to treat someone who's been declared brain dead... (link)

This is what I meant when I mentioned "committing professional suicide" upthread -- earning a reputation for incubating corpses is good for business if you make horror movies, but not in the medical profession.

It's time for the parents to start channeling their grief into finding out if they have proper grounds for malpractice -- though given Jahai's weight, that wouldn't be a slam dunk, either.


rocktivity

[w8liftinglady]

87. I'm a nurse. I've been there.

I worked in an intensive care unit and supported many families who received the news that their family member was brain-dead.
No decent physician will pronounce brain-death lightly... especially on a child. Our physicians and nurses would approach the family with the statement-the child you knew has passed. We are keeping her artificially alive using machines.She is watching from a beautiful place now (if they are religious).She will not come back. This would generally be the point where we would offer organ donation to keep her spirit alive in the bodies of others. We would reinforce the fact that there is no organ transplantation that would heal her, and even with life support, her body would continue to die slowly. We would ask what their daughter would want.
It is never an easy decision. The time of death has already been signed by the physicians.The child looks fairly "normal".We wouldn't always disconnect immediately, but after the patient is legally "dead", terminal wean does proceed.Most otherwise healthy brain dead bodies usually die 5 minutes after disconnection.There almost always was a required autopsy.I can only recall 2 patients who we did not remove. They ultimately died after a prolonged stay in our ICU.