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dipsydoodle

(42,239 posts)
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 06:23 AM Dec 2013

Lack of fuel grounds Gaza's sole power plant

Source: Yahoo ? AFP

Gaza City (Palestinian Territories) (AFP) - Lack of fuel from Israel brought Gaza's lone power plant to a halt on Friday, just 12 days after it was fired back to life following a seven-week shutdown, the Palestinian territory's electricity firm said.

"The plant stopped working on Friday morning due to a lack of fuel caused by Israel's closure of the Kerem Shalom crossing," an electricity company official said.

Israel closed the crossing to the besieged Palestinian territitory on Tuesday following a series of violent incidents on the border with the Jewish state.

Read more: http://news.yahoo.com/lack-fuel-grounds-gaza-39-sole-power-plant-083932469.html



Under the 1949 Geneva Conventions, collective punishment is a war crime.
36 replies = new reply since forum marked as read
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Lack of fuel grounds Gaza's sole power plant (Original Post) dipsydoodle Dec 2013 OP
I guess Gaza isn't a prison after all . . . another_liberal Dec 2013 #1
C'mon guys. I'm sure there's a reasonable explanation. nt Tunkamerica Dec 2013 #2
Well, if the Palestinians hadnt killed that Israeli worker, among other things, Xing would be open. 7962 Dec 2013 #3
One Israeli dies, and one and a half million Palestinians have to suffer for it? another_liberal Dec 2013 #4
The plant isnt the only source of power for the area. "Crime against humanity" would be pushing it. 7962 Dec 2013 #5
Hamas is guilty of crimes against the Israeli people, there's little doubt of that. another_liberal Dec 2013 #6
yes and Israel killed a 3 year old in it's retalitory bombings azurnoir Dec 2013 #8
And just last week a terrorist tried to blow up an entire busload of people. Intentionally. 7962 Dec 2013 #9
The "main cause of the troubles" is the institution of racism. Ash_F Dec 2013 #11
So I guess the Arab countries are also racist against the Palestinians they oppress. 7962 Dec 2013 #12
Israel wants to be a part of the first world Ash_F Dec 2013 #13
' but against non-White/Ashkenazi Jews and non-Jewish Israeli citizens as well' King_David Jan 2014 #21
Again if it was literally anyone else, I would give them the time Ash_F Jan 2014 #22
Lol King_David Jan 2014 #23
And yet no one else has chimed in with absurd denial. /nt Ash_F Jan 2014 #24
And so? nt King_David Jan 2014 #25
So you are alone here. /nt Ash_F Jan 2014 #26
It's usually that way, King_David Jan 2014 #27
I guess you are right, you are the true hero here. Ash_F Jan 2014 #28
'Discrimination against Israeli Arabs still rampant, 10 years on' Violet_Crumble Jan 2014 #32
That individual is not worth your time. Trust me. Ash_F Jan 2014 #35
As far as International law is concerned, Palestinians are Citizens of Palestine only happyslug Dec 2013 #16
Regardless, if everyone really "cares' about their well being, they should assist them. 7962 Dec 2013 #18
Why not just leave them return??? happyslug Dec 2013 #19
Yes, letting MORE of them in would surely lessen suicide attacks. 7962 Jan 2014 #20
People who own property rarely commit suicide attacks happyslug Jan 2014 #29
Wow. So according to you Palestinian refugees are terrorists who want to destroy Israel? Violet_Crumble Jan 2014 #31
Well thats pretty much what they say out in the open, so kinda, yeah. 7962 Jan 2014 #33
Well without MyNameGoesHere Dec 2013 #7
Only the lowest form of humanity cpwm17 Dec 2013 #10
Why isn't Egypt supplying them? former9thward Dec 2013 #14
The Moslem Brotherhood was, but that ended with the Coup happyslug Jan 2014 #30
Great post and should be an OP by itself. former9thward Jan 2014 #34
Damn. elleng Dec 2013 #15
Gaza power plant reactivates as fuel supply resumes oberliner Dec 2013 #17
So cruel libodem Jan 2014 #36
 

7962

(11,841 posts)
3. Well, if the Palestinians hadnt killed that Israeli worker, among other things, Xing would be open.
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 08:52 AM
Dec 2013

Hamas wont deal with Israel anyway and according to the article the PA from the West Bank had to do the deal to start with. So Hamas would have left the plant closed to start with if it hadnt been for the PA. Quit attacking people and this crap wont happen. Its really very simple. They'll re-open it again at some point. But Hamas will always be Hamas.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
4. One Israeli dies, and one and a half million Palestinians have to suffer for it?
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 09:09 AM
Dec 2013

You do realize that "Collective Punishment" of a entire civilian population is considered a "Crime Against Humanity," right?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fourth_Geneva_Convention

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
5. The plant isnt the only source of power for the area. "Crime against humanity" would be pushing it.
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 09:21 AM
Dec 2013

The article states the plant provides approx 30% of the power. Maybe the people will rise up against the constant attacks being done in their name; but it's doubtful; they elected Hamas. And the fact that their own elected government will not deal with Israel means without the PA from the West Bank, this plant wouldnt get ANY fuel. Would Hamas be charged with a crime against humanity against its OWN population if not for the PA?
And again, I'm betting that the crossing wont stay closed for very long.

 

another_liberal

(8,821 posts)
6. Hamas is guilty of crimes against the Israeli people, there's little doubt of that.
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 09:27 AM
Dec 2013

The wrongs Israel has suffered, however, do not give her the right to then commit deplorable crimes against the innocent Palestinian civilians in Gaza. That policy is beneath Israel, and only serves to lose her friends and support all around the World.

azurnoir

(45,850 posts)
8. yes and Israel killed a 3 year old in it's retalitory bombings
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 02:55 PM
Dec 2013

who's power is getting shut off for that? oh wait........

Three-year-old Palestinian girl, Hala Abu Sabikha, killed in Israeli raid on Gaza


http://mondoweiss.net/2013/12/palestinian-sabikha-israeli.html

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
9. And just last week a terrorist tried to blow up an entire busload of people. Intentionally.
Fri Dec 27, 2013, 09:14 PM
Dec 2013

And fire rockets at non-military sites every day. Etc Etc.
The Palestinian people need to stop the terrorists from doing their deeds in the middle of civilian areas. But they want to be there so they can get stories like this one. Like hiding in a church. Like firing rockets from schoolyards. Plenty of examples out there of this stuff. I doubt the Israeli military was targeting a child; unlike the Palestinian terrorists who target civilians constantly. No, the Israelis are not always without fault. Not by a long shot. But they are not the main cause of the troubles there.

edit to add link: http://www.timesofisrael.com/i-injured-in-explosion-on-bat-yam-bus/
And apparently the bus was not full at the time.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
11. The "main cause of the troubles" is the institution of racism.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 11:57 AM
Dec 2013

It is not up to the oppressed to satisfy their oppressors so that they would stop oppressing them.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
12. So I guess the Arab countries are also racist against the Palestinians they oppress.
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 09:27 PM
Dec 2013

They are kept in camps, they arent allowed to vote or assimilate in their countries. If the Palestinians deserve Israeli land then they deserve Jordan just as much. Where is the uproar over camps in Jordan and elsewhere? They've been offered almost everything they wanted in the past and turned it down. They are "oppressed" simply because they choose leaders who will not work in their best interest.

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
13. Israel wants to be a part of the first world
Sat Dec 28, 2013, 09:54 PM
Dec 2013

And a part of the international community. If so, then their racist policies and institutions need to end. Not just against Palestinian Arab Muslims but against non-White/Ashkenazi Jews and non-Jewish Israeli citizens as well. As with South Africa, their behavior is being rightfully perceived as less and less acceptable by their allies as time moves forward.

That doesn't have anything to do with third world Arab countries that surround them.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
21. ' but against non-White/Ashkenazi Jews and non-Jewish Israeli citizens as well'
Wed Jan 1, 2014, 10:22 PM
Jan 2014

Care to back up that absurd claim?

Ash_F

(5,861 posts)
22. Again if it was literally anyone else, I would give them the time
Wed Jan 1, 2014, 10:53 PM
Jan 2014

But not you. I don't take you seriously so you are not worth my time.

Good day.

King_David

(14,851 posts)
23. Lol
Wed Jan 1, 2014, 11:01 PM
Jan 2014

No problem I understand you could not back up your absurd ridiculous claim.

Cheers.




President Carter : "I know that Israel is a wonderful democracy with equal treatment of all citizens whether Arab or Jew. And so I very carefully avoided talking about anything inside Israel..."

King_David

(14,851 posts)
27. It's usually that way,
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 12:07 AM
Jan 2014

This is not new.

And so what ? As if being part of the mob makes ones position right and just?

So I'm standing alone against a bunch ?

So what ? What exactly is your point ?

Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
32. 'Discrimination against Israeli Arabs still rampant, 10 years on'
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 07:26 AM
Jan 2014
Ten years after report on October 2000 riots, in which 13 were killed, the state has failed to implement antidiscrimination measures that would reestablish just relations between Jews and Arabs in Israel.

“We can sum up as follows: The events of October 2000 shook the earth.”

That is how the State Commission of Inquiry, known as the Or Commission, started the conclusion of its report, which was published 10 years ago. The commission was established to identify the causes behind the violent clashes between police and Arab citizens of Israel in October 2000, during which 13 young Arabs were killed by the police. Those clashes were the worst and most violent confrontation between the government and its Arab citizens since the founding of the state.

The commission found deeply rooted factors leading up to clashes, including the structural and systematic discrimination suffered by Arab citizens. The commission stated unequivocally that: “the state did not do enough to grant equality to its Arab citizens and to eliminate discrimination and deprivation.” The commission strongly recommended that “a principle objective of the government must be the achievement of genuine equality for the Arab citizens of the state.” It even said, specifically, that there should be a redistribution of existing resources and that the matter required the prime minister’s personal involvement.

Based on our organization‘s ongoing monitoring of government policy toward Arab citizens, we see that 10 years after the report, not only has there been no redistribution, but the ongoing allocation of resources in almost all spheres is still very unequal. The result is acute inequality in all areas of life. We are not ignoring the areas in which the government has taken certain steps to reduce discrimination, such as the establishment of the Authority for the Economic Development of the Arab Sector in the Prime Minister’s Office, and the implementation of programs to increase employment of the Arab citizens. If these steps were to be expanded, they could bring about a change in the socioeconomic situation of Arab citizens and reduce inequality

But in parallel, the government has been promoting programs that are liable to reignite tensions across the country. The most prominent is the Prawer plan, or “The Plan for the Regulation of Bedouin Settlement in the Negev,” which will result in the uprooting of tens of thousands of Bedouin Arab citizens from their homes, forcing them to relocate and likely lose most of their land. At the same time, the government is promoting programs and offering incentives for young Jews to build new Jewish communities in the Negev, as it continues to offer generous benefits to a small group of Jewish citizens in the “private farms” program.


http://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-1.550152
 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
16. As far as International law is concerned, Palestinians are Citizens of Palestine only
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 01:25 PM
Dec 2013

And as such, while other countries may take in refugees, they do NOT have to accept them as permanent residents. Thus the Palestinians in the Camps are refugees from Palestine, and as such NOT entitled to work in the host country.

Chapter 1, Article 7 of the CONVENTION 1 RELATING TO THE STATUS OF REFUGEES. SIGNED AT GENEVA, ON 28 JULY 1951


1. Except where this Convention contains more favorable provisions, a Contract ing State shall accord to refugees the same treatment as is accorded to aliens generally

This is repeated in Chapter III, Article 17:

1. The Contracting States shall accord to refugees lawfully staying in their territory the most favorable treatment accorded to nationals of a foreign country in the same circumstances, as regards the right to engage in wage-earning employment.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%20189/volume-189-I-2545-English.pdf


In simple words, any country that takes in Refugees may treat them as any other legal alien, including the right to work OR Forbid such work if such law applies to all legal aliens. Given Lebanon, Syria and Jordan do NOT permit legal aliens to work within their counties, except under certain circumstances, it is legal under international law for each to ban employment of these refugees.

Israel ratified the above treaty on 1/8/1951:
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=080000028003002e

Jordan, Syria and Lebanon has NOT signed the above treaty, but apparently are following it, in this regard.


The above treaty was modified by the Protocol of 1968, The US and Israel agreed to "accession" to the protocol, Syria, Jordan and Lebanon did not sign or otherwise agreed to these protocols. The protocols dealt with two issues:

1. Refugees after January 1, 1951 were to be treated the same as Refugees before January 1, 1951. The original treaty used January 1, 1951 as a cut off for Refugees, that was abolished by the protocol

2. Made it clear when it came to Federal States, the Federal Government will do what is permitted to the Federal Government under that Federal system, but the Federal Government will also refer things reserved to its consistent states, provinces or cantons what is reserved to such states, provinces or cantons with recommendation for such states, provinces or cantons to adopt them.

https://treaties.un.org/doc/Publication/UNTS/Volume%20606/volume-606-I-8791-English.pdf

List of Signers, Countries that Ratified and agreed to "Accession" to these protocols:
https://treaties.un.org/Pages/showDetails.aspx?objid=0800000280048bb8

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
18. Regardless, if everyone really "cares' about their well being, they should assist them.
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 12:53 AM
Dec 2013

They could easily pass laws giving Palestinians work rights, etc. But they dont. Just because its "legal" to ban employment doesnt make it right, does it? Palestinians work in Israel. Doesnt really matter anyway. The Palestinians are going to continue with their rocket attacks, suicide attacks, etc, and until the people tell their leaders to stop it, Israel will keep doing whatever it is they're doing. They've had the chance in the past to get almost everything they wanted, but wouldnt take it. Pres Clinton did all that could be done, and Arafat walked. Every time Israel eases up on the pressure, they get another attack.
And by no means do I give israel a clear pass on everything; they've done their share of stupid moves. But if i have to pick a side, I'll stay on theirs.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
19. Why not just leave them return???
Tue Dec 31, 2013, 12:27 PM
Dec 2013

If Israel would just permit the refugees to return, that would solve the problem. They would no longer be refugees in a foreign country, but internally displaced persons who could move where they want to.

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
20. Yes, letting MORE of them in would surely lessen suicide attacks.
Wed Jan 1, 2014, 07:44 PM
Jan 2014

When they refuse to allow Israel to exist, simply letting some move in wont solve anything. They'll merely try to bring down the government.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
29. People who own property rarely commit suicide attacks
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 12:50 AM
Jan 2014

It is the people without hope that commit such suicide attacks. That what makes them so dangerous, how do you prevent someone who has no hope of a better life, and wants revenge? You have to kill him OR give him or her hope. Israel has refused to do the later, thus Israel has suicide attacks.

I suspect Israel ruling parties know this to be the case, but that leaves two alternatives that the ruling elite of Israel rejects. First is genocide, i.e. enter these camps and kill every man, woman and child in them, The second is to leave them return. Israel has acted at times in the past as if it is willing to do the first option (Sabra and Shatila massacre) , but then pulls back do to fears of world condemnation. The second is rejected out of hand by Israel.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sabra_and_Shatila_Massacre

Now technically the Sabra and Shatila massacres were done by Phalangists elements not Israeli troops, but Israel had the camps surrounded and forbade anyone from leaving. Even an Israeli investigation found the Israeli army at fault. No evidence of any DIRECT orders to kill everyone in the camp, but also no direct orders to FORBID such killings, even after it was clear such killings were occurring.

AS to Suicide attacks themselves, none have been committed by someone who had hope for a better life. Most had had family members killed and their homes destroyed. They see nothing but the prospect of death before them, and if all they see is death, then taking people who they believe are causing the harm with them to death is hope to them that their life is not completely being wasted. i.e. it is better to die a martyr then to die alone in a hole.

A good comparison can be made with the fall of Fort William Henry in the French and Indian War of 1754-1763. After a long siege, the British Commander of Fore William Henry decided to surrender the fort to the French under Montcalm. The agreement was the British was to pull under and vacate the Fort, and the French were to leave the British return to Albany New York. As the British pulled out of the fort, the Native Americans, allied with the French, Attacked the withdrawing British. Unlike the Israeli Commanders in the above Massacre, Montcalm acted swiftly to show he was NOT going to tolerate a Massacre. Montcalm sent in his French Marines to drive back the Native Americans and defend the surviving British troops.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fort_William_Henry

Side note: In the Wikipedia cite for Fort William Henry, under the heading Massacre includes the following phase: The terms of surrender were that the British and their camp followers would be allowed to withdraw, There were NO camp followers in Fort William Henry, such followers either left at the start of the siege or had defected to the French (which was typical of such followers, thus never allowed to be in the camp itself). Now the British did have Civilians, including women, within the fort, but these would be subject to the rules of the Camp, Camp followers were not. These included Sutlers (where the soldiers could buy odds and ends, a mobile General Store) and Washer Women. A lot of people try to put the Washer Women among the Camp Followers, but Washer Women lived in the Camp and received pay. Every 20 men were entitled to one washer woman. She was generally their Sargent's wife (but not required to be). She would wash the clothes of the men (thus they name) but do other functions within the camp. During Battles it was common for washer women to carry water to the men on the firing line (Molly Pitcher of Revolutionary war fame, was doing this for her husband's cannon, when he was hit and wounded, in legend he had died but in real life he survived, on seeing him fall, she took his place on the Cannon and operated it till the battle was over. I bring this up for the older I get the more I hate the various attempts to down play the role women played in the Army prior to the 1880s. In the 1880s, when a decision was made to upgrade the cooking for the troops, the Army went to professional cooks, but disliked the idea of sending women off to cooking schools, decided to sent men instead, and have congress pass a law abolishing washer women from positions in the US Army.

The law outlawing Washer Women is still on the books. The reason for that is under the Common Law, going back to the Middle Ages, Washer Women were assigned to every 20 men. The US is a Common Law nation, and under the rules of the Common Law, if you pass a law in derogation of the Common Law, that ends the Common Law Rule. The big question is what happens when you repeal a such a law in derogation of the Common Law? Does that restore the Common Law Rule? The General rule is yes. Thus the law forbidding Washer Women remain on the books. Please note, washer women were NEVER cited in organizational charts of Military formations. Everyone knew they existed and every 20 men had a washer women, but in organization charts they were just not mentioned. You do NOT mention things that are common knowledge. Organizational charts also do NOT mention how many times a day soldiers have to breath, how many times they piss or shit for the same reason washer women are not mention, everyone knew men need to breath and eliminate waste from their bodies AND needed the support of one washer woman for every 20 men. Thus the Militia Act of 1792 did not mention how many washer women were in each militia company (and also did not mention how many Sergeants or Corporals), but did mention officers were to have Swords (called Hangers in the actual Act), but NOT the number of Officers, just the number of men.

Now, under Prue-1880s food reform, the rule in all armies was Food was issued to each group of four men. It was their duty to cook it. Most men in each platoon gave the food to the Washer Woman of the Platoon and paid her to prepare and cook it. This was another tradition that can be traced back to the Crusades. The men paid the Washer Woman to Prepare and Cook their Food. Now, if the men were detached from the Washer Women, they had to cook and prepare their meals (Thus the regulation that food was assigned to each rank of four men NOT to the Washer women, in situation where the washer women were detached the men could still cook something to eat). Detaching washer women from Regiments was quite common, for example when Custer entered the Little Big Horn, he had left the Washer Women assigned to his unit back with the main army, thus no women, or other non soldiers (except for his Native American Scouts) were present during the Battle of the Little Big Horn.

Yes, this started as an attack on the IDF (Israeli Defense Force) and the attitude of Israel to the Palestinians. What happen at Sabra and Shatila was outrageous, I just pointed out that the IDF's failure to do anything during that Massacre was a war crime, and pointed to what the French tried to do at Fort William Henry as what the IDF SHOULD have done when massacres at Sabra and Shatila were occurring. At that point I saw that comment about "Camp Followers" and that term was being used as to the women, children and other civilians who were attacked at Fort William Henry. That is the WRONG term for such Civilians, including women, children and men for the women, children and men being called "Camp Followers" in that cite, were NOT living outside the Camp but INSIDE IT and as such subject to the rules of the Camp. Camp Followers were NOT subject to the rules of the camp, and that is why they were always outside the camp followers i.e. they FOLLOWED the camp but NEVER were inside the Camp. It was an important distinction at the time (pre-1880s) and in many ways still the rule. Go outside any US military camp and you will see all types of sleazy businesses, go through the Gates you have the Commissary and the PX (the successor to the Sutlers of previous centuries) and while you be surprise what is being sold at the PX, it is more like a smaller Walmart then anything else (The PX may have Playboy and similar magazines, but they be hidden somewhere, not out in front for everyone to see when you visit the stores outside the modern day "camp&quot . Thus the difference between those civilians working in the camp and the people outside the camp exists to this day and it would be insulting to the civilians working in the Commissary and the PX to consider them the same as the XXX places outside the gate and I suspect that is why I went on this tangent, there is a difference and it is an important difference.

I wrote the above as a side-note, for it has nothing to do with this threat, but since I cite Wikipedia that contains what I consider an error, the above is to address that error and inform people that it is an error. Except for that Error the Cite is a good Cite for the massacre at Fort William Henry.

Violet_Crumble

(35,961 posts)
31. Wow. So according to you Palestinian refugees are terrorists who want to destroy Israel?
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 07:22 AM
Jan 2014

What a load of absolute crap...

 

7962

(11,841 posts)
33. Well thats pretty much what they say out in the open, so kinda, yeah.
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 09:01 AM
Jan 2014

Every single one of them? No, of course not. But when you elect leaders who espouse that point, when you publicly celebrate attacks, when you refuse to condemn ANY attack, then the majority obviously follow that line. Hell, they dont even show Israel on any maps.
How many protests were held here in the US against Iraq? Hundreds, maybe thousands. How many times have Palestinians in any number come out against attacks against Israel? How many times have they protested the daily rocket attacks against Israel? How many times have they said they just want to live in peace with the Israelis?
Yeah, its gotta all be the Jooooos fault, as another poster here says.

 

happyslug

(14,779 posts)
30. The Moslem Brotherhood was, but that ended with the Coup
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 01:25 AM
Jan 2014

And the Egyptian Army wants to maintain its privilege position within Egypt, and that requires US support and US support for Egypt requires Israel support for that Support to Egypt. Thus the Egyptian Army has cracked down on supplies to Gaza to keep Israel happy and thus preserve the Egyptians army subsidies from the US.

Remember the Egyptian Army Coup was more to preserve the privileges of the Officer Ranks in the Egyptian Army more then any thing else. The Army Generals feared that the Moslem Brotherhood President was about to crack down on their privileges and reacted as other people have done when someone starts to take their power away from them (i.e. the Generals over threw the President and installed they own ruling President, a President who will perverse those privileges).

One more thing many of those privileges are based on US foreign aid support for Egypt, thus the US can end this coup within months, but just declaring the Government illegal and withdraw ALL foreign aid. Egypt can NOT even feed itself today and most of the world is having problems with feeding their people, thus Egypt can NOT buy grain on the open market. This will force Egypt to end its subsidy of grain to the Egyptian people and force more of them into the opposition.

We in the US have seen the price of food go up over the last four to six years, but it is a minor price increase compared to what else we pay to preserve out standard of living. In Egypt any increase in the price of grain will lead to food riots in the urban centers where support for the Moslem Brotherhood is the weakest. Rural Egypt is already in the pocket of the Moslem Brotherhood. In Egypt the price of grain is controlled but the price of all other foods are not. Thus, while the price of bread has been stable in Egypt, the price of everything that goes with bread has gone through the roof as far as the lower 60% of the population is concerned. It was that price increase that caused most of the people to revolt against Mubarak. We in the West saw the Internet being used, but that is only available for about 40% of the population, the lower 60% do not earn enough money to buy such luxuries.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:FAO_Food_Price_Index.png

?33653b64-be40-4c80-8dbf-9f2c97e55772

http://faostat.fao.org/desktopdefault.aspx?pageid=342&lang=en&country=59

?56fc8504-3ef1-404c-be0b-e24a79e22a9a

http://faostat.fao.org/desktopdefault.aspx?pageid=342&lang=en&country=59

Notice the huge amount of imported Wheat and Maize (Corn to us Americans).

Egypt exports 1 million ton of Oranges and .7 million ton of Cheese, and imports 10 million tons of Wheat and 7 million tones of Maize.

Egypt exports: Tonnes:
1 Oranges..................................1,042,291
2 Cotton lint...................................61,217
3 Sugar Refined............................277,176
4 Cheese of Whole Cow Milk........117,662
5 Potatoes....................................637,434
6 Processed Cheese.......................62,282
7 Onions, dry................................490,922
8 Grapes.........................................62,332
9 Sunflower oil................................57,890
10 Vegetable Frozen.......................117,696
11 Tobacco Products Nes..................33,951
12 Food Prep Nes..............................47,115
13 Sugar Confectionery.....................51,624
14 Macaroni.......................................70,976
15 Fruit Juice Nes...............................79,072
16 Beans, dry.....................................47,436
17 Frozen Potatoes............................71,759
18 Chocolate Prsnes...........................13,260
19 Fruit Fresh Nes ...............................57,232
20 Soybean oil.....................................41,182

Egypt imports: Tonnes
1 Wheat..........................................9,800,061
2 Maize...........................................7,047,864
3 Sugar Raw Centrifugal.................1,144,346
4 Soybeans.....................................1,115,797
5 Cake of Soybeans...........................988,144
6 Palm oil............................................509,060
7 Soybean oil......................................350,101
8 Broad beans, horse beans, dry........297,333
9 Sunflower oil....................................262,764
10 Gluten Feed&Meal............................241,483
11 Bran of Wheat..................................218,316
12 Apples..............................................168,459
13 Meat-CattleBoneless(Beef&Veal)......152,001
14 Potatoes...........................................143,638
15 Bran of Maize....................................122,779
16 Sugar Refined....................................104,125
17 Tea.....................................................100,423
18 Lentils...................................................93,313
19 Butter Cow Milk.....................................79,014
20 Milk Skimmed Dry...................................77,843

Egypt exported less then 10,000 tonnes of wheat per year up till 2006 and today is exporting 200,000 tons of wheat. while importing 10 Million tonnes (10,000,000).

http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?country=eg&commodity=wheat&graph=exports

Why the sudden increase in exports since 2006 (the reason is simple, the price of wheat is up world wide). Egypt imports more in sunflower oil then they export in wheat. Thus Egypt is exporting one ton of wheat for every 50 tons it exports? The answer is simple the US gives its wheat to Egypt, but Egypt then sells its own wheat on the open market. The Generals of Egypt should be saying "Thank you US Tax payers".

Egypt exported NO wheat from 1968 to 2001, except for 1993, 1994. 1995, 1996 and 1997. Exported no Corn from 1968 till 2005:

http://www.indexmundi.com/agriculture/?country=eg&commodity=corn&graph=exports

Egypt is exporting 10,000 tones of wheat and importing 7 MILLION tonnes (7.000,000). Again WHY? Yes, US Taxpayers are subsiding the export, by why is it profitable to Egypt to EXPORT Corn? Your most profitable market is the market it takes the least efforts to get your crop to, that should be Egypt itself, but some how it is more profitable to ship out Wheat and Corn to other markets, while importing in cheaper US Wheat.

The first chart explains why, there has been a huge increase in the price of grain since 2000, countries like Egypt finds it is more profitable to export grains then to sell them internally. Thus the price of food in Egypt is still to high, and no one has a solution to that problem but it will lead to more and more instability in Egypt NO MATTER WHO RULES.

With the price so high, it is as profitable to ship excess wheat and corn elsewhere as to smuggling it into Gaza. We are entering interesting times, many people in the world can NOT pay the ongoing price of food and either have to look to local crops only or revolt. The French Revolution was preceded by a Famine. The Revolt of 1848 was preceded by a European wide Famine. The Russian Revolution occurred in the year after Russia had its first crisis in feeding people inside its major cities (By 1919, Lenin, then in control of Russia had to send out special units to raid peasants food reserves, so he could feed the people in the cities of Russia, Lenin feared another Revolution if he did not feed the people inside those cities).

Food crisis's lead to revolts. Solidarity was formed in the time period when the Communist Party of Poland first tried to eliminate food subsidies.

The Russian Revolution that replaced the Soviet Union with the modern republics seems NOT to have been food driven, thus it was peaceful for most people's stomach's were full. You had the Coup against Gorbachev (Which was defeated when no one came to support of the people leading the coup) and the attempted coup against Yeltsin, which was put down by the Russian Army for again the Coup plotters did not have the support of the people, for the people were upset they stomach's were still full (and people were TRYING to work things out, not preserve the ways things were). Thus no a text book revolution for in Russia even the Army agreed something had to be done (The same thing with the Various Warsaw pact members, the Army supported the revolution that overthrew the communist governments, but that is the problem with a true universal Service Army, it does what the people want, not want the people paying it wants).

Egypt is looking more like Russia in 1917 not Russia in December 1991. Right now, the Army enlisted ranks are following orders, but being soldiers drafted into the army and once they term of service is over will return to the Civilian population more in tune with the people of Egypt then the ruling elite. Right now, the Enlisted ranks are following orders, but except for special units are NOT involved with putting down Civilian protests except in support roles (and in riding around in Tanks and APC in shows of Strength). It is the Egyptian Police who are smashing heads. The police are all volunteers and as such obey the people who pay them. In 2011 the Police did not have enough police to suppress the riots and called in the Army for Support. The Army went in and did the minimum required of them, they did NOT open fire they did NOT smash heads, they stood around in their Tanks and APC and looked like soldiers. This "Failure" on the part of the enlistee ranks to smash the protesters is why Murabek had to go.

The Election was held but the General Corps held onto its power. The Generals grabbed the Police and slowing rebuilt it. The Generals then "Reformed" some of its elite units to be head bashers if call out to do so. The Rest of the ranks were kept in their barracks OR send around in their tanks and APC to look tough, but not to close to the civilian population for the civilian population to see what the enlisted ranks in those tanks and APC were thinking.

Once the above "Reforms" were done, the Generals made they move, they had protesters protest against the Moslem Brotherhood. This was to give cover to the coup they were planning. The Moslem Brotherhood had tried to do some reforms, and like any reforms this has caused the people most affected by those reforms to object and thus ready recruits for any protests. The price of Gasoline war permitted to raise and shortages created (all disappeared within days of the coup, way shorter then if such shortage was do to problems being caused by the Moslem Brotherhood) this was to upset that minority of people who own cars in Egypt and get them to join in the protests against the Moslem Brotherhood. The protest took place then the Army made its move. First it arrested the Moslem Brotherhood President and as many of the leaders of the Moslem Brotherhood they could. Told the mob the Army had created that they had overthrown the Moslem Brotherhood and everything they objected to would be undone (thus the reforms were stopped and Gasoline became available). This satisfied the people who had participated in the protests who disbursed. At that point the Army sent in the Police to crack the head of anyone protesting the Coup and closed down every new outlet the Moslem Brotherhood had (something the Moslem Brotherhood had NEVER done to its opposition).

Thus the Egyptian Army is acting like the Russia Army did prior to 1917 and again prior to 1991, putting down any protests, but with obvious reluctance for many of the soldiers during the suppression support what the people they are suppressing are demanding. Seeing this reluctance the Government turns to professional police to do the job of suppression. In Russia this was a problem for the Russian "Police" (called the "Militia&quot had always been low paid people from rural areas recruited to be police in the major cities by the opportunity of moving to the big city from their rural home. This made them a poor source of suppression (and another reason Russia's revolution of 1991 was reality violence free) but Egypt has a professional Police Force, well paid and thus loyal to its pay masters. This has been the forced used against the Egyptian Moslem Brotherhood, the Army just supplying back up with its Special Forces (Now tanks and APCs were driven on the streets of Egypt, but NOT used in any actual act of suppression, more as a show of might, for I suspect the Generals do NOT trust the Soldiers driving those Tanks and APCs).

I am one of those people who think the Moslem Brotherhood will be returned to power, but it will be violent. Worse, given the history of the Moslem Brotherhood I do NOT expect it to come from the Moslem Brotherhood, but from within the Military. Sooner or later some Colonel is going to see he has no chance of promotion given who is in charge of the Egyptian Army and with other like minded field grade officers lead a revolt. They will overthrow the present government and reach out to the Moslem Brotherhood for support. The Moslem Brotherhood will accept this support and then put those Colonels in charge of the Army. It may be Captains and Company Grade officers, but someone will see that the situation is NOT sustainable and that the problem is the Generals who must be removed from power. This will make the General reluctant to deny to many promotions, by how can you promote everyone? If you do promote everyone, how do you keep paying them?

Right now, the only group inside Egypt that can CUT the military's share of the Economy is the Moslem Brotherhood. Right now that is keeping the Officer Corps loyal to the Generals, they want to share in the looting of Egypt. The problem is sooner or later the looting will get to much and something has to give. That is what happened in Russia in 1917 and again in 1991. After the October revolution of 1917, Lenin dissolved the existing Russian Army and had Trotsky form a new Army out of its remains and with that army defeated the various Whites in Russia trying to overthrow him. In 1991 the Russian army told the Equivalent of the US National Security Agency that if they wanted to overthrow Gorbachev and Yeltsin, do it themselves. Thus Yeltsin won out and the Soviet Union was dissolved. The Russian Army again supported Yeltsin when another coup was attempted and the Army suppressed that Coup. It is believed the Russia Army was the key to Yeltsin's resignation and his replacement by Putin.

I bring this up, for the key is how will the various Officer elements within the Egyptian Army act over the next few years and the level of suppression increases. Sooner or later the Military will have to turn to its regular troops to suppress more and more Egyptians. With that turn, the power of the Field Grade and Company Grade officers will increase. Sooner or later someone in the Officer Corp will accept that it is the Generals who must be overthrown and will do so. The food crisis will make this a problem sooner then later (if the price of food was dropping, less demand for revolution, but no one is even attempting to reduce the price of food).

former9thward

(32,016 posts)
34. Great post and should be an OP by itself.
Thu Jan 2, 2014, 11:34 AM
Jan 2014

I think I agree with most of it. I believe that there is an ongoing food crisis which will bring about change -- good and bad. The revolutions in France, 1848, and 1917 ultimately ended up bad for most folks I believe. I don't agree with the Israel is demanding a curb on food so the U.S. makes Egypt do that. I think it is probably more complicated than that. Thanks for the info.

 

oberliner

(58,724 posts)
17. Gaza power plant reactivates as fuel supply resumes
Mon Dec 30, 2013, 07:56 PM
Dec 2013

The Gaza Strip's only power plant returned to life after Israel resumed fuel deliveries on Sunday, a Palestinian official said, two days after a lack of supplies halted electricity production.

"The plant resumed functioning with the provision of fuel, which restarted with the reopening in the morning of the Kerem Shalom crossing," the official told AFP.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4470885,00.html

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